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View Full Version : Factory brushless mini-z!!!


akura2
2012.09.06, 08:05 PM
http://kyoshosan.blogspot.fr/2012/09/extra-extra-1st-pictures-of-new-mini-z.html?m=1

Courtesy of Kyoshosan

imxlr8ed
2012.09.06, 09:29 PM
Oh boy... Hopefully the upgrade package won't cost more than a current Readyset! So now we're gonna have brushed and brushless classes? (I vote, Mod/Brushless, Stock/Brushed) Hope to see some screw holes in the end of that can before final release!

All that said... Ultra freekin sweet! Next step... Lipos!

herman
2012.09.06, 10:21 PM
wait it isn't april is it?
cr@p.... man that is just awesome... :D

Mini-Z Racer MR-03 VE Brushless!!!
Information was just released about a new Mini-Z Racer MR-03 VE Brushless model expected to be released in January this year. It's been a long-term goal for Kyosho to release a brushless powered Mini-Z, but the brushless technology is only just becoming available from sister company Team Orion. The trick was to incorporate the brushless electronics on the main circuit board, which also controls the radio functions. Also, driveability is paramount when this much power is on tap. There's not a lot of information available at the moment, but the system is installed in an MR-03 chassis that will come with a ball differential as standard equipment. Stay tuned for more info as we get it.
Source/Fonte: Kyosho

herman
2012.09.06, 10:24 PM
All that said... Ultra freekin sweet! Next step... Lipos!

hmm... performance wise... is there a significant gain between their current life batts and lipos? what are the pros / cons of each (sorry if this is a newbie question as i have zero experience with either)

cowboysir
2012.09.06, 10:32 PM
The discharge rate on tap for LiFE is lower than LiPo...which translates to higher power to the BL motor.

I'm looking forward to seeing this power system for an MR03...I just hope it doesn't overwhelm the mainstream market of brushed/2.4GHz cars.

ub0211042
2012.09.07, 12:07 AM
u'll have to drill holes for screw to mount on PN / Atomic mount :confused:

yasuji
2012.09.07, 12:21 AM
The discharge rate on tap for LiFE is lower than LiPo...which translates to higher power to the BL motor.



wait.... r u saying that the life will have more power?

FINRacer
2012.09.07, 06:12 AM
I hope that there will also be brushless MA-015.

arch2b
2012.09.07, 06:17 AM
Once it's out on one, it's just a matter of time till all chassis get it. It took awhile to get 2.4 through the whole lineup though.

On a side note, this can't be good for chassis set sales for the remainder of the year with the latest and greatest 3-4 months away.

cowboysir
2012.09.07, 08:32 AM
wait.... r u saying that the life will have more power?

sorry...that should read that LiPo have more power on tap

d1nzfe
2012.09.07, 08:47 AM
MB010 need this system more than MR03 IMHO :cool:

TheRinger
2012.09.07, 09:07 AM
Aaaawwwwww freakin sweet. Of coarse it would if 1. They do make the motor with drilled can so you can use it with aftermarket motor mounts 2. Sell just the electronics and motor by themselves if that means any saving at all and 3. Have a couple different motors like one stock class motor and mod class motor. Also since team Orion is involved does this mean they make the whole pcb so you have to use a different 2.4ghz system or is it just a piggyback esc that connects to the existing board? Awesome either way.

imxlr8ed
2012.09.07, 09:08 AM
Mmmmm... Brushless F1... :D

Was kinda thinking it would have been a smaller brushless too, that way they could possibly re-invent some chassis geometries and give us some independent suspension action for the rears.

I don't know, but that on-road conversion for the buggy, coupled with one of these setups seems like the perfect blend for putting the power down!

NoBrainer
2012.09.07, 01:34 PM
Due to the fact that most tracks I can race on, I don't need Life or Lipo. Since the tracks are not wider or longer than what my 33T MR-03 can handle.
It seems like I will fail bad if I get a even faster car.

But I do like lower weight, less maintenance, better efficiency and cooler.

marc
2012.09.07, 01:41 PM
Wow, this is a big development for Mini-Z's! But, I'm not surprised by the outcome. Brushless motors are very popular in RC helicopters where we want the extra power and efficiency. I had the feeling it was only a matter of time before we start seeing brushless motors in these Mini's.

By the way Kyosho, I'm still waiting on my AWD Dnano!

TheSteve
2012.09.07, 02:03 PM
I can't help but wonder if Kyosho is doing this because it will actually improve the cars or is it really all perception as the rest of the RC industry has gone to brushless.
I'm a huge fan of brushless motors, been using them with RC before any of the big names did it(anyone recall Aveox?) but I'll be holding off on the MiniZ version until its solidly proven to work and work well.

B-main
2012.09.07, 02:21 PM
I can't help but wonder if Kyosho is doing this because it will actually improve the cars or is it really all perception as the rest of the RC industry has gone to brushless.
I'm a huge fan of brushless motors, been using them with RC before any of the big names did it(anyone recall Aveox?) but I'll be holding off on the MiniZ version until its solidly proven to work and work well.

i remember aveox i ran twins in my clodbuster...so reflex when can we start pre ordering them .

Rune
2012.09.07, 04:39 PM
Good stuff.
Interesting to see if they still will use ASF, and if the chassis has other changes to it on the inside.
Noticed this:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-hdIyYTSfFzo/UEpbXsHdOzI/AAAAAAAAEGE/yveShRla68Q/s468/br06091220.jpg

arch2b
2012.09.07, 07:34 PM
oh god, please let it be 2.4 asf... last thing i need is another frequency change and another transmitter.

mugler
2012.09.07, 07:40 PM
Finally, a whole lot less maintenance and a much more even playing field in the power department !! IMO for hopped up cars the big news is the board and not this motor since there are a ton of after market bl motors of all sizes with mounting holes which could be used with after market aluminum pods & hopefully someone will come up with a solder tab version since even those small plugs look like will have clearance issues with a bunch of bodies out there.

re if esc is orion or ko, tapping into my 1/10 memory bank I believe orion esc's were rebadged and re packaged KO escs or at least started off that way with their first models.

DMALMAD
2012.09.07, 10:12 PM
does anybody know what the price point is going to be?

B-main
2012.09.08, 12:03 AM
does anybody know what the price point is going to be?

id say around 350

yasuji
2012.09.08, 12:51 AM
cant wait to get my hands on one of these!... ;)
and install it in to a MR02 CHASSIS!!:D

NoBrainer
2012.09.08, 09:26 AM
Good stuff.
Interesting to see if they still will use ASF, and if the chassis has other changes to it on the inside.
Noticed this:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-hdIyYTSfFzo/UEpbXsHdOzI/AAAAAAAAEGE/yveShRla68Q/s468/br06091220.jpg

Probably due to "more" electronics to master the brushless.
So they had to change the board layout and size.

When it will be released, it wuold be great to get a motor pod that a BL could be fitted right into.
Then I could run a 94mm with "lots" of space. Nice.

Dominick Shaunt
2012.09.08, 10:44 AM
About time Kyosho rolled out some brushless love for mini-z i cant wait to drop a brushless system in my mini-z monster ..

arch2b
2012.09.11, 01:12 PM
just released info:

32760B Mini-Z Racer MR-03 VE ASF 2.4GHz
Retail $459.99

expecting the first shipment to arrive in late January

1. confirms this is 2.4GHz ASF which is a godsend.
2. we know what the hit to our wallets will in within a range as retail prices will vary.
3. we won't get this till February 2013 as it ships to retailers late January. this really stink in that it may miss the holiday shopping period with date limitations on pre-orders.

not sure i'm willing to make that leap unfortunately. unless there are optional motors for a stock/gt class i'm not really interested in mod class racing or the price point for this kit.

cowboysir
2012.09.11, 01:26 PM
Holy hune ficker!!!! $460 for a mini -z is not going to get many first timers interested in the hobby especially since the only option part included is a ball diff.

In my mind they are essentially saying that the electronics are going to be over $340 ish on their own. My reasoning is this:

1. Ra22 board retails for $115 ish
2. That makes all the chassis stuff (no board) retail for $115 ish ($229 for complete no tx)
3. Take $115 for chassis parts out of the $460 total.

I guess when you consider esc/rx/servo packages can come close to that amount it's not hard to see the reasoning behind their price point...not sure I'll accept it and shell out though.

arch2b
2012.09.11, 01:54 PM
yeah, not claiming their price point in unjustified, just unsustainable in this market.

some other thoughts;
1. retailers are not going to stock these in any real number due to price point that hits them in overhead costs with little promise for fast sell through. think pre-orders only or stocking 2-3 only.
2. few consumers will plunk down that much money for a mod class car which will limit it to a niche within the mini-z market in which retailers will be saddled with high cost inventory that doesn't move for those that ordered several beyond what they pick up in pre-order sales.

i see this being almost strictly a pre-order sale. maybe they will pick up some sales on the back end of the holidays as people have holiday money/gift cards to spend.

imxlr8ed
2012.09.11, 03:45 PM
Wow... well, at least I can still dream of owning a brushless Mini-Z, just won't ever be able to afford one!

I'm still waiting for a dirt cheap buggy to pop up somewhere out there on the webs... guess I'll be doing the same for this one too!

Seems like they are going the super-premium, small scale, ultra defined, extremely limited, rc car racer market. I have a strong feeling that there are going to be some really dusty sections of shelves in LHSs' all around the world!

*and near those areas, you'll hear this once in a while*

"Wow, hey! Check out these little RC cars! Awesome, they're really detailed and look incredible!... they're brushless too! I'll bet they're fast... I wonder how much they cos.... holy s..."

*sound of box being put back onto shelf and footsteps away*

mikedw
2012.09.11, 03:46 PM
That's crazy expensive. I see no need for one of those then. I spent less on most of the brushless 1/10th scales I have. A SC10 4x4 pro comp 2.4 ghz RTR is cheaper. Where is the value???
I bet it doesn't come with an autoscale either. I consider Mini Z a small niche market, I think the niche just got smaller. Oh well, brushed Mini Z and white bodies for me, at least while I can still afford those.

arch2b
2012.09.11, 04:19 PM
ok, before we go to far with the cost bashing (myself included), more realistic street pricing has been posted on www.mini-z.com with a suggested street price of $330. that is certainly a lot more palatable.

mikedw
2012.09.11, 04:24 PM
meh. not really

arch2b
2012.09.11, 04:44 PM
it still 1.8 times the current chassis kit price :rolleyes: but a whole lot better than 2.5 times the current chassis kit price:eek: kyosho msrp figures are always astronomical.

i'll be clear, it's still far above my price range for sure.

Bodom
2012.09.11, 05:43 PM
Who needs that anyway?:confused:
Price tag is way too much either way.
And is this going to run on NiMHs?

imxlr8ed
2012.09.11, 08:33 PM
I don't like to bash either, I'm actually worried that they are expecting the dollar to crash before the release time comes around!

Price justification... ok,

I'm sure it has the ball diff because a stock diff may be useless with a brushless system, so good. I would hope it ar least would come with alloy knuckles too, because the plastic ones are way too fragile. At that cost, I'm still coming up short.

So, throw in an EX5-ur instead of that TV remote (KT18), a lipo batt and a simple lipo charger and then it's an excellent deal that would hopefully keep customers running to all of the other lipo, brushless, RTR RC cars available out there.

Still a fan of the thing and I eagerly await it's arrival, but when I do finally plunk a chunk of change like that down for a tiny RC car, I'm probably going to feel the need to join a support group for my out of control addiction.

(maybe we could arrange interventions on here? :rolleyes:)

TheRinger
2012.09.12, 02:27 PM
Ed, I thinks it's far too late for intervention:D. Just saying. I mean I got my mini z habit under control I swear I do. :)

imxlr8ed
2012.09.12, 02:56 PM
I've tried getting my fix from other scales and it never seemed to work out, not the same high I guess.

I guess the price thing really doesn't irritate me that much on a personal basis, I'd just hate to have to stand there and explain to a prospective MiniZer that, yes... these cars are worth that much, and yes... they do cost more than other types of RC that don't really require a specialized surface to race on.

Once again, I would rather have 15 racers showing up running MR01s, than 4 showing up to race the latest and greatest. Seriously, if there was a club near you that had 20 solid members with great racing skills and their only rule was to run nothing but MR01s and associated hop-ups, would you buy an MR01 again?

arch2b
2012.09.12, 03:37 PM
similar feelings for me as well. while it is out of my price range, it will be more frustrating to try to argue the benefits of pursuing mini-z at that cost point. we are all always in a battle to convince new comers that mini-z is the cost effective alternative to larger scales and kyosho seems hell bent on making that harder for us every year.

cowboysir
2012.09.12, 04:15 PM
(maybe we could arrange interventions on here? :rolleyes:)

Would you want to be on TV's "intervention" or are more of a "hoarders"?

$330 is a little more acceptable. If they get some tapped holes in the motor case for the alloy mounts of the Z world I'll probably plunge in.

reaper
2012.09.12, 05:19 PM
Just hope it does infact use the asf system
I have a brushless ma010 all i used was razr motor and electronics with the 17mm motor mounts ment for the upgrade brushed motors
Maybe this is what kyosho have done as the hardware is already out there

imxlr8ed
2012.09.12, 05:33 PM
Would you want to be on TV's "intervention" or are more of a "hoarders"?

Sounds like a cross-over episode in the making!

I'm not sure if I'd fit the bill as well as somebody else I know would.

(hint: likes orange,grey and black paint schemes!) :D

lfisminiz
2012.09.12, 08:34 PM
Sounds like a cross-over episode in the making!

I'm not sure if I'd fit the bill as well as somebody else I know would.

(hint: likes orange,grey and black paint schemes!) :D

:rolleyes::eek:;):D

arch2b
2012.09.12, 08:52 PM
Just hope it does infact use the asf system
I have a brushless ma010 all i used was razr motor and electronics with the 17mm motor mounts ment for the upgrade brushed motors
Maybe this is what kyosho have done as the hardware is already out there

The info I saw said 2.4 ghz asf.

doug01n
2012.09.13, 01:30 PM
Wow... too expensive for brazilian runners.

I'll keep my 03 brushed untill they release a "car only" package, with prices under 200 bucks (including a ASC boddy).

arch2b
2012.09.13, 01:47 PM
i think that is a chassis set only, no autoscale or transmitter...

unearthed name
2012.09.13, 10:23 PM
if it can't compete with my brushed mod mini-z then no. don't buy this

doug01n
2012.09.14, 11:26 AM
Even worst if it's the chassis se only at this price... an abuse!

I'm wondering about the power of this bl motor... Will it be comparable to wich motor? We have a carpet track with 11m x 4m, with 2 straights with 11 meters, and we don't see much diference in the times between 70T and mod Class (less then 0,5s, with much more consistency in the 70T class).

If this BL motor is much stronger than the 70T, it may be a point to consider before changing the classes to BL...

reaper
2012.09.14, 12:27 PM
If kyosho know what they are doing then along with the b/l set-up they also need more gearing options
If you run the same gears as you do with your brushed motor you will be very dissapointed
In the b/l system

TheRinger
2012.09.14, 01:17 PM
If kyosho know what they are doing then along with the b/l set-up they also need more gearing options
If you run the same gears as you do with your brushed motor you will be very dissapointed
In the b/l system

Agree with you on that one. I race my SC10 in 17.5 class and had to change the gearing according to the manual and it's a drastic change from the stock 17 turn brushed motor. Just have to wait and see. I'm curious of how many turns the motor is and if they will sell it with a drilled motor can.

twinkie
2012.09.14, 03:58 PM
remember that the pricing is also considering the dollar to yen conversion. Maybe we will get lucky and the rate will be better as we get closer to the release. I already have a few on pre-order.

ChiMiniRc
2012.09.15, 12:26 AM
does anybody know what the price point is going to be?

It's going to be around $329 and be a chassis set. No body. No Radio.
It will include the ball diff.

yasuji
2012.09.15, 01:54 AM
It's going to be around $329 and be a chassis set. No body. No Radio.
It will include the ball diff.

So this means ill have a 329.00 miniz brushless board:D

doug01n
2012.09.17, 07:43 AM
At this price, I'm out.

mleemor60
2012.09.17, 08:45 AM
Cost aside. Considering the severe heat build up that a well ventillated larger scale brushless application creates the chassis will have to be an alloy of unobtanium and kryptonite to keep from turning itself into a molten puddle before your very eyes.

However. This could be the bridge to a true aftermarket chassis that would satisfactorily answer the question "how fast will it go?"

A P-28 type chassis re cut to accept a T-plate or gimballed set up with this new board and motor and LIFE batteries? Time warps might be possible in the hands of probably a half dozen people in the world. The rest of us would just use it to manufacture ankle high holes in the sheet rock. I can just see little cartoon style silouettes(sp?) of the car body where the hole is. Ajax wouldn't scrub the grin off your face though.

arch2b
2012.09.17, 08:51 AM
ah, mike... thanks for the chuckle this morning.:p the thought of random holes in walls from ballistic mini-z's gave me a good smile and chuckle. a good way to get the day started.

think Cadillac Ranch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Ranch) :cool:

imxlr8ed
2012.09.17, 10:24 AM
Time warps might be possible in the hands of probably a half dozen people in the world.

NO!... you can't use my machine! The last time I loaned it out, they didn't dump out the ashtray and there was a coffee stain on the seat! :p (and I think they damaged the space-time continuum... I told them to give Lincoln the helmet and Ghandi the vest, not the other way around!)


Yes... holes in sheet-rock is appropriate. I would like to think that I could handle all the speed in the world but then I put a 33turn in and get educated in the 1st turn real quick!

mleemor60
2012.09.17, 10:29 AM
Been there seen that. It is right on I-40 almost across the street from the "Big Texan" steak ranch. Home of the of the 72oz if you eat it it's free steak.

They moved the cars back several hundred yards from the road to reduce traffic congestion created by "gawker's". Now they look like half buried Mini-Z's from accross the room. Good photo's are still attainable if you have the codes to relocate a spy sat. Or one of those lenses that wild life photographers use to make it look like they are standing beside the fishing bear when they are actually a thousand yards out.

imxlr8ed
2012.09.17, 12:13 PM
It is right on I-40 almost across the street from the "Big Texan" steak ranch. Home of the of the 72oz if you eat it it's free steak.

Would be cool if Kyosho had that policy! (if you can drive it... it's free!)

I think the brushless will truly shine in the Buggy. For the racers, environment will mean everything... should be useful at some wide carpet or ozite tracks.

arch2b
2012.09.17, 01:51 PM
i agree, it would have made much more sense to first release with the buggy. maybe the buggy would have sold better, who knows. now they have buggy inventory that sits on shelves and a revised board mini-z that will also sit on shelves due to price point.

i'm betting most shops will open pre-orders and do pre-orders only. hell, were almost there with autoscales as well. :rolleyes:

when it's all said and done, sometime in the future, someone is going to look back and realize it was kyosho that killed mini-z rather than any wane in interest or popularity.

color01
2012.09.17, 10:30 PM
Cost aside. Considering the severe heat build up that a well ventillated larger scale brushless application creates the chassis will have to be an alloy of unobtanium and kryptonite to keep from turning itself into a molten puddle before your very eyes.

However. This could be the bridge to a true aftermarket chassis that would satisfactorily answer the question "how fast will it go?"

A P-28 type chassis re cut to accept a T-plate or gimballed set up with this new board and motor and LIFE batteries? Time warps might be possible in the hands of probably a half dozen people in the world. The rest of us would just use it to manufacture ankle high holes in the sheet rock. I can just see little cartoon style silouettes(sp?) of the car body where the hole is. Ajax wouldn't scrub the grin off your face though.

These tiny little brushless motors can't do much in a Mini-Z -- even the hottest Xcelorin system Losi makes (same size as the new Orion, but 10000kV) is only comparable to a well-built 130 Mod motor. To make holes in the wall you gotta go old-school GSR style and stuff a Mamba or Hacker 180 into an open-ended motor pod. :)

TheRinger
2012.09.18, 02:25 PM
I have to agree with all of you the price is a little steep. And yes they probably should of done this in the buggy first. But why put a brushless system in something that doesn't sell well that is also overpriced. History has shown us that you might want to try it first before deeply investing more time into it example the lit, dnanos, overlands and monsters etc. if they take off then great. Me I just don't want one. They might copy a buggy but their not going to perform like one. And yeah converting into a touring car sounds neat but completely defeats the purpose of buying an off road buggy plus the money it would take to make it a touring car. I know I'll get hate for this but that's my opinion. Some of you know I went crazy into this hobby and have cars and trucks from 1/36 to 1/8 scale and learned that my passion lies with mini z. I just see the buggies as a fad. It'll come and go just like most things in this hobby. I'm a little more interested in the bike but since I can't use my radio with it( or as far as I know I can't ) I'm not buying until I can justify it. As for the brushless mini z thing, to me it shows that atleast kyosho still cares about this part of the hobby but like ray said they seem to be pricing themselves out of exsistence. I really hope and prey that the pricing doesn't do mini z in. We can gripe and wine about the price point but all you have to do is go race 1/10 and 1/8 scale and you will thank god for mini z. I have just as much money in my SC10 then all 12 of my mini z chassis, parts and acessories. Let just see where this goes. The market will decide.

ChiMiniRc
2012.09.18, 05:37 PM
i agree, it would have made much more sense to first release with the buggy. maybe the buggy would have sold better, who knows. now they have buggy inventory that sits on shelves and a revised board mini-z that will also sit on shelves due to price point.

i'm betting most shops will open pre-orders and do pre-orders only. hell, were almost there with autoscales as well. :rolleyes:

when it's all said and done, sometime in the future, someone is going to look back and realize it was kyosho that killed mini-z rather than any wane in interest or popularity.

Likely pre-order in the Chicagoland area.
This release seems to cater to the uneducated Mini-z types who seem to frown down upon a mini-z "still using brushed motors".

Now, those same "new" racers who seemed reluctant to buy a mini-z for not being brushless cannot possibly be won over at $487.

$329 chassis
$59 autoscale
$99 radio


I'm still waiting to see how well it drives being a sensorless motor system. I may even buy direct from Japan for a heads up to help the hobby shops with purchasing decisions.

In the end, I've used this response when asked
"Are these brushless?"
"Can you make them brushless?"
"Do they run lipos?"

Official response
"Electric R/C has advanced quite a lot over the last 10 years and the larger scale cars are finally enjoying what we Mini-z racers have enjoyed the last 10 years. Low maintenance and long run times"

No need for Lipo for run times. We're already getting really long run times. No need for lipo for speed. NiMh can deliver plenty of current to the fastest of motors that fit our cars.

Brushless motor? Yes the mini-z motors are brushed but they are VERY low maintenance. Also, at the price, I have no problems tossing it after a year and buying a new one. Speed? Again, plenty of motor options to make the car faster than it can handle.

What's left, all out top speed? No point winning these folks over. You pretty much need a gymnasium or large open carpet surface. You aren't going to be shooting for 25-30mph on asphalt.

TheRinger
2012.09.18, 09:29 PM
Likely pre-order in the Chicagoland area.
This release seems to cater to the uneducated Mini-z types who seem to frown down upon a mini-z "still using brushed motors".

Now, those same "new" racers who seemed reluctant to buy a mini-z for not being brushless cannot possibly be won over at $487.

$329 chassis
$59 autoscale
$99 radio


I'm still waiting to see how well it drives being a sensorless motor system. I may even buy direct from Japan for a heads up to help the hobby shops with purchasing decisions.

In the end, I've used this response when asked
"Are these brushless?"
"Can you make them brushless?"
"Do they run lipos?"

Official response
"Electric R/C has advanced quite a lot over the last 10 years and the larger scale cars are finally enjoying what we Mini-z racers have enjoyed the last 10 years. Low maintenance and long run times"

No need for Lipo for run times. We're already getting really long run times. No need for lipo for speed. NiMh can deliver plenty of current to the fastest of motors that fit our cars.

Brushless motor? Yes the mini-z motors are brushed but they are VERY low maintenance. Also, at the price, I have no problems tossing it after a year and buying a new one. Speed? Again, plenty of motor options to make the car faster than it can handle.

What's left, all out top speed? No point winning these folks over. You pretty much need a gymnasium or large open carpet surface. You aren't going to be shooting for 25-30mph on asphalt.

I didn't think about that ChiMiniRC, if it's anything like sensorless brushless systems in big scale cars it will be a pain to control. I've driven some sensorless systems and their like an on and off switch. No smoothness or ease of control like with sensored brushless systems. If that's the case then it probably isn't worth it.

imxlr8ed
2012.09.18, 10:30 PM
I really like the official response Chi! Wish I would've thought of that. It's basically what I try to explain to interested parties, but it always seemed to get muddled.

Very good point on the sensorless operation as well, something we'll have to review when they get released.

doug01n
2012.09.19, 07:52 AM
Cogging it's a fear for us too! A friend in Galpas/Br made a brusless conversion, and the cogging effect was a nightmare. I'm waiting to see it.

arch2b
2012.09.19, 01:16 PM
for those of us not accustomed to brushless systems, can we get a an overview of system as a whole, where it differs technically and in electronics and such things as cogging?

reaper
2012.09.19, 05:51 PM
As yet a brushless system doesnt exsist that has trully what people want , this would be a mix of sensored and sensorless
Take off would be handled by the sensored board to get the smooth acceleration , then switch to the sensorless for the top end

doug01n
2012.09.24, 09:27 PM
Why I would like to see a brushless motor on a Z:

- No brushes (ok... dã...) - The abscense of brushes turn the motor more linear trough it's life time. Our brushed motors has a very good lifetime without any maintainance, but as the brushes are coming to the end and the comm gets thicker, the power increases slightly untill the motor dies.

- More runtime - brushless motors are much more efficient than the brushed equivalent.

- More torque and top speed.

- Less weight.

As the brushless motors have 3 poles, starting the motor without a sensor to know the position of the magnets x poles makes the motor "vibrate" (what we call "cogging) until you get enought current (and magnet field) to move the axle in the correct direction. A sensored brushless uses a sensor to know this exact position, and the sensored ESC modules the PWM signal to eliminate this "vibration" when starting the motor.

In the real world, the cogging effect reduces the smothness when accelerating the car from zero and in the exit curves. It makes the first part of the acceleration a "black zone" where you can't predict too much how the motor will behave during this fraction of time. It may causes a traction roll, a spin out, or a slow start.

If I didn't make any mistakes, that's my reasons.... If i did, please tell me guys!

arch2b
2012.09.25, 07:47 AM
thanks for the background on cogging. fun to learn new things.

some good points but to counter, do mini-z's actually need capability for more speed than already exists? do they need the same for torque? considering sponsored events have a weight min. which most need to add weight to reach, is weight really a concern anymore? given we can easily run 15 minutes before even moderate batteries really drop off under track conditions, do we really need more run time? these things can go only so fast on current standard track size. it's already a struggle to put down the power as efficiently as possible due to weight and torque. most races don't come close to the run time batteries afford. while i can appreciate the continued march of innovation. unfortunately, i think this was ill timed for the increased price point and not the best choice for platform introduction. once you get over the marvel of it, it leaves you scratching your head with more questions than answers.

for what it's worth, i would reply no to all. seems like even kyosho is having a hard go of it, see kyoshosan's (http://kyoshosan.blogspot.com/2012/09/mr-03ve-brushless-might-not-come-soon.html) recent post on the issue. there are more reports of user experiences being posted on jpn sites but translations of those make them rather confusing.

doug01n
2012.09.25, 08:59 AM
Arch, In order of importance for me:

- linear power trought the life time of the motor: 99.9%.
- other things: 0,1%.

We are facing a curious thing in our track. Two guys have motors from the last season, and theese motors are running at 32km/h top speed (tamyia checker) and the others are runing at 29km/h. We already tried change the motors, to use the same gear match, diff, ect, and the difference continues.

The motors are not equivalent (more than 10% difference), and are 2 70T motors. The com is thinner due to use, and the brushes are with less pressure.

We know that this difference will desapear soon as the motors will just die in a few weeks or months, but untill that, it's a huge handcap between racers.

Does the brushless systems fade out with time? Sure they do, but for sure the time will be a lot bigger than the brushed system.

Using comm drops makes a huge difference too (we use the voodo and black death), and this does not apply to the brushless system.

arch2b
2012.09.25, 09:30 AM
understandable and you raise a very interesting follow-up question. is there the same level of variation in brushless that we see in brushed motors? currently there is a good deal of variation in motors of the same wind count/manuf. does brushless bring more consistency to motors? i care far more about that than the life span of a $11 brushed 70T motor.

doug01n
2012.09.25, 09:56 AM
I didn't find anything about it, but considering the 1/10 standartization tests of the motors, the guys found a verry uniform and low variation batch to batch, much more trustable than the brushed motors.

Thinking technically, the variation is much more controled than the brushed motors, 'cause there's no contact parts, wich takes to no projected wear. The magnets doesn't contact the comm, and there's bearing in the axles to smooth and long life operation.

Draconious
2012.09.25, 10:21 AM
I am not for brushless for the extra speed, I want the efficiency/quality.
Brushes just flat out suck on motors.

If the motors/brushes spark, they cause pitting and collect carbon, which blocks the power from flowing through them. It just keep slowing down from there.
I hate getting a drop of bearing oil on the brushes, the motors tend to seize up. Brushless usually have ball bearings etc...
You do not have to break in a brushless motor.
Brushed motors are usually about 50% efficient, Brushless are closer to 80%.
No brushes, and better efficiencey means less heat as well... wich again performs better.



I have only used Brushless on Planes/Helis, so I have not yet experienced the performance altering cogging that is being talked about here. Is it really that bad?


RCP = R/C Parties
He does a rental business for parties and events with rc cars and trucks,

I kind of do as well now... or at least RC will be added to my slot cars soon. If these were not $400 or more, I would likely use these, but I think I would rather just buy a bunch of cheap $200 1/10 trucks...

josyskunk
2012.09.25, 10:59 AM
I am not totally agreed with arch2b about the speed of mini z because it is never about if we need a faster or more efficient mini z. It is about product cycle and market segmentation for Kyosho. This brushless mini z is not for most of us, it is for those who have the deepest pocket and want to have the latest and best money can buy. It is this segment that Kyosho is aiming for. Kyosho uses this segment of the market to pay for the development cost and may be one day lower(big question mark) the price to penetrate the main stream racer.
When did MR03 first come out? 5 years ago ? It is about time to introduce a new model to generate more buzz for the mini z. It is not just for Kyosho, it is also for PN and Atomic to make more motor mount and brushless motor!!

blt456
2012.09.25, 11:35 AM
There are many advantages that brushless motors have that brushed motors don't, such as minimal maintenance (no polishing the comm, breaking in bushing or brushes) and generally longer life. However, I will not buy this mainly because I do not believe that this system will improve my driving skill. I would rather just work with the brushed motor selection already on the market.

Brushed motor maintenance is very easy and not time consuming if you know how to do it right.

Another downside to this system is that the motor can isn't drilled, which means it needs to be drilled, users would need to get new motor mounts, or after market companies will make their own brushless motors that are compatible with the kyosho electronics.

As for the mr03 comment, it was released around the end of 2009.

arch2b
2012.09.25, 02:11 PM
kyosho experimented with tiered segmentation of the mini-z market years ago with the i-series. it was an outright failure. i could be wrong of course but seems rather foolish at best to release a higher end segmentation market product in the midst of a struggled recession recovery. the ever onward march of price increases to the general line alone will shorten sales. to artificially create an even larger gap between products within the line seems utterly foolish. i simply don't buy into that notion. any improvement has typically been rolled into the surviving sub lines. this will be no different provided it comes to market and survives. it's more apt to be the begining of what may be a shift to the new system.
any business plan chatter on my part is speculation really as kyosho never really discloses means and methods other than to say the u.s. market is simply an afterthought at best. maybe they are cutting producing quantity and raising prices to achieve the same profit by larger margins on reduced supply? what i do know is that i've been a staunch supporter of the line since it's release and through all the previous debates on cost effectiveness of the scale through the ups and downs in popularity and unfortunately, it's a loosing battle at this point. wait till you see the price of the Loeb autoscale.... i'm not saying mini-z is dead, it will live on despite kyosho driving it into the realm of obscurity. it will be a much smalller community, even smaller than it is now.

as mentioned by another, i to am sure kyosho has been working on this for some time. it's simply another casualty of the global recession. which is why i continue to find it curious as to why it was introduced with the racer vs. the buggy where is much more appropriate given the intended use. the buggy is already a smaller niche market than the racer but how much more desire would it have given to a sub-line had it come with what most clamored for upon it's release? who knows, it may have been the bump it needs. they would have had the opportunity to get the system out into the market, within a new line and be in a better position to roll it our to the rest of the line as the economy improved making the price point less of a hurdle to overcome.

jumping off the soap box, can you explain the difficulty in 3rd party manuf. of motors for the kyosho board? simply put, i've never raced brushless as i only race mini-z. i have some other stuff to play with but only ever really use mini-z. anything i have larger than 1:27 is still FM or AM:rolleyes: have to keep in mind the competitive racing component to the community here is the minority. we just happen to be the most vocal :p

arch2b
2012.09.25, 02:16 PM
is there an introduction to brushless systems that would be helpful to read?

doug01n
2012.09.25, 02:38 PM
I think the brushless wiki is very complete and can introduce you to this top efficiency motor world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_electric_motor

arch2b
2012.09.26, 07:43 AM
great link, read a few sections already. :p

doug01n
2012.10.02, 10:50 AM
Any updates?

akura2
2012.10.13, 02:22 PM
As yet a brushless system doesnt exsist that has trully what people want , this would be a mix of sensored and sensorless
Take off would be handled by the sensored board to get the smooth acceleration , then switch to the sensorless for the top end

Not in small scale right now at least... The 1/10 scale Castle Mamba max Pro does this....

It would be great if the technology made not to the small scale market though

NoBrainer
2012.10.30, 08:48 AM
I found a link with the RPM for PNWC33T (http://shop.tinyrc.com/product.php?productid=20643&cat=387&page=1) and it's faster than the bruhsless setup that Kyosho is going to ship.

I would like a brushless system due to maintenance, weight and cooling. But this is NOT a beginners system.
I love my 70T motor.
I use a 33T in my mod when I drive on big L or larger, but on my Mini-96 it's a pain in the a**.

So there should not be a 11000kv motor in the brushless. Thats at least what I think. You should have something like a 5000kv in the stock car and you should be able to buy a 11000kv motor as a option when you have a large track or get really experienced.
Not that I know what kv rating the X-Speed V brushless is!!

If you run LiPo 1S you still get a really fast motor for those narrow tracks.
Not that I think you would get the MR-03VE electronics to work properly on 3.7V-3.3V.
If you use the LiFe pack it will work and probably get some higher speed.

Chrismelb
2012.12.03, 04:10 PM
Would it be possible to fit a MR03 VE Brushless system to an old MR03 Chasis?

ChiMiniRc
2012.12.03, 09:05 PM
Would it be possible to fit a MR03 VE Brushless system to an old MR03 Chasis?

The Main Kyosho website has the manual available. It appears a new chassis and top plate are required to fit the new rx/esc.
No word from Kyosho on when to expect parts for a conversion.

drhavy
2012.12.22, 03:25 PM
I found a link with the RPM for PNWC33T (http://shop.tinyrc.com/product.php?productid=20643&cat=387&page=1) and it's faster than the bruhsless setup that Kyosho is going to ship.

I would like a brushless system due to maintenance, weight and cooling. But this is NOT a beginners system.
I love my 70T motor.
I use a 33T in my mod when I drive on big L or larger, but on my Mini-96 it's a pain in the a**.

So there should not be a 11000kv motor in the brushless. Thats at least what I think. You should have something like a 5000kv in the stock car and you should be able to buy a 11000kv motor as a option when you have a large track or get really experienced.
Not that I know what kv rating the X-Speed V brushless is!!



Allow me to pop in a sec and just mention that BL motors have more torque even though the do no appear to have the RPM. That may mean that with the brushless motor you can go with larger pinions and that will compensate for the lower KV or RPM.

Rune
2012.12.27, 05:56 AM
Starting to show up in webshops around. $198 (16999 JPY)

ChiMiniRc
2012.12.27, 12:37 PM
Starting to show up in webshops around. $198 (16999 JPY)

I'm finding this infuriating as it's going to take at least $275-$300 to grab one of these stateside.

NoBrainer
2012.12.27, 01:52 PM
Can't you guys just wait and see what the price is going to be?
No point in just make a lot of worst case scenarios....

Maybe you get a nice surprise or maybe Kyosho America sees that all you guys want it to cost $300...

hihi

ChiMiniRc
2012.12.27, 03:58 PM
Can't you guys just wait and see what the price is going to be?
No point in just make a lot of worst case scenarios....

Maybe you get a nice surprise or maybe Kyosho America sees that all you guys want it to cost $300...

hihi

I did wait and contacted Kyosho America directly before posting that. It will in fact be in the $299 street price range.

ChiMiniRc
2012.12.27, 04:02 PM
The VE I.C.S software is online now.

Nicer interface then other software I've seen. Li-FE battery cutoff as well as lots of motor controls.

TheRinger
2012.12.27, 04:52 PM
The VE I.C.S software is online now.

Nicer interface then other software I've seen. Li-FE battery cutoff as well as lots of motor controls.

Wonder if they will come out with this on the setting card?