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Tjay
2012.11.13, 01:16 AM
Bragging right is cool and I guess the trophy too but is there any changes from 2008's PNWC? I mean, is there at least a free plane ticket for 2013 PNWC or something worth racing for rather than the "World Title" or bragging rights? What about store credit, cash, free entry fee for 2013 Regionals, KO PROPO radio or even miniz car? I really hope I'm wrong and that the new PNWC winners do get more than just the trophy.

Congrats to the winners. Great race over the weekend!

bcpzx3
2012.11.13, 02:22 AM
Bragging right is cool and I guess the trophy too but is there any changes from 2008's PNWC? I mean, is there at least a free plane ticket for 2013 PNWC or something worth racing for rather than the "World Title" or bragging rights? What about store credit, cash, free entry fee for 2013 Regionals, KO PROPO radio or even miniz car? I really hope I'm wrong and that the new PNWC winners do get more than just the trophy.

Congrats to the winners. Great race over the weekend!

I wouldn't be surprised if they don't get anything more than the trophy and title.

SAGISI
2012.11.13, 03:02 PM
With how dead the mini-z scene been, I can see why they cant have things like free plane tickets to 2013 Worlds, prizes for the winners, money payouts, etc. Everyone in the mini-z community ultimate goal is to have that World Title. And I get what Tjay is saying cous if I were to win the World title I would be stoked but after looking back at how much time and effort I put in, was it really worth it? I believe it would be but would I be excited about next years Worlds race??? Probably not. Many people know that if I were to win a title I would put mini-z to rest and concentrate on other forms of RC. But after tuning with many mini-z drivers who have that same passion of going fast and having fun, I remembered that RC should just be about having fun/making new friends.

One thing that I would like to see in the mini-z community that will help us get more people into mini-z is factory support. I believe they do a good job for there factory drivers but not for there "customers".

bcpzx3
2012.11.13, 07:37 PM
One thing that I would like to see in the mini-z community that will help us get more people into mini-z is factory support. I believe they do a good job for there factory drivers but not for there "customers".

Completely agree. I really hope Reflex starts making more parts, because I am now converting to Atomic and Reflex parts only.

yasuji
2012.11.13, 10:27 PM
Bragging right is cool and I guess the trophy too but is there any changes from 2008's PNWC? I mean, is there at least a free plane ticket for 2013 PNWC or something worth racing for rather than the "World Title" or bragging rights? What about store credit, cash, free entry fee for 2013 Regionals, KO PROPO radio or even miniz car? I really hope I'm wrong and that the new PNWC winners do get more than just the trophy.

Congrats to the winners. Great race over the weekend!

nope.... just a trophy and a title!.... and its all worth it... i get to make great new friends everywhere i go!:D

arch2b
2012.11.14, 08:13 AM
trophies are good for a few things; collecting dust, book ends, fond memories awards pictures. other than that, they tend to get discarded in storage boxes, etc. i've seen a few very unique awards that are more worthy of remembrance but those cost more money and well, there isn't a lot of money in mini-z racing to begin with.

lets not bag on PN to much because of prizes, they are providing a annual sponsored racing series after all. out side of PN, whom else can claim the same in the u.s. (which gets you to the worlds)? Kyosho has yet to get anything going after the collapse of the north american mini-z cup series. Atomic has talked about races and maybe even held a few? you really don't hear about them. Reflex has an online series going with a few clubs.

pardon me as i step up on my soap box for a moment....
the community at large desperately needs more organized sponsored racing. so much so that i would gladly buy into the kyosho only rules of the mini-z cup again. the recession years have hit the community especially hard and well, i'm willing to say most clubs are left to themselves and maybe other local club events or HFAY. what made the mini-z community so strong years ago was, most enthusiasts were not competitive racers. they were people tooling around and having fun. there were many online communities with countless innovations, new ideas, customization's, etc. that filled the community. as mini-z has become less of an affordable hobby that has dwindled and i fear we are more or less left with the competitive racing group by and large which relies heavily on manufacturer support vs. community. the scene if you will has shifted over the last couple years and it's dominated by competitive drives, manufacturer development, sales and communities have dwindled. the average enthusiast is what helped sustain this community and it is that segment that i fear we are purging in greater numbers. there used to be endless pages of posts with people sharing everything from pictures of their favorite moments, items, new creations, etc. and today... well there are a few that remain but we can't even get enough participation to continue contests anymore. mini-z will continue on as it has survived for more than a decade. it sorely needs an infusion of creative fun though and unrealistically, affordability. we used to get excited about things like wheel lights. now all it seems to generate are rebuttals on how it's detrimental to racing as unnecessary weight.
ok, stepping down...

imxlr8ed
2012.11.14, 10:46 AM
it sorely needs an infusion of creative fun though

Oval track racing!... blindfolded? ;)

The fun has never been an issue for me, but the thing that irritates me the most is the lack of promotion from the people who manufacture the damn product itself!

I have no idea why Kyosho isn't pushing us to have events to promote their own product... why are we the ones who are always initializing events?

For instance... say I was a Kyosho rep, and I was to go to the most loyal and dedicated clubs on here and tell them I wanted to have an event, something like a Spec race for a specific type of Z... or an all-out Buggy race, or maybe even a Mini-Moto race. And I gave the clubs enough time to promote the event and to let the racers get their gear ready. I buy the trophies, put out gift certificates as prizes and show up to manage the event. Also to promote the cars further... have the events at local "other scale" tracks where outsiders can witness the levels of racing we all enjoy with these cars.

Now... who here would say no to something like that?

Problem is... it just doesn't happen!

PN has given us all something to shoot for, every PN event I have gone to was to just enjoy the racing and drive my butt off to the best of my abilities. I never worried about what I was winning because I was too interested in the fun to be had. Honestly... I wouldn't care if they handed me a friggin candy bar if I was to win a race! :D

I have no idea why a company like Kyosho doesn't try everything in it's power to hire or incorporate a guy like Phil... to have someone in your company that loves your product so much?... priceless!

Tjay
2012.11.14, 01:43 PM
I had to post this because others can but wont, so let me be that guy and I'm cool with that... I'd like to thank you guys for sharing your opinions. Others needs to see these kinds of input.

Back in January 2008, my first real race, Atomic had an event (West Coast Regonals) and during this time, Atomic had more parts on the shelves than PN. The 1st place winners on both mod (AWD and 2WD) gets a plane ticket to Hong Kong. Let me repeat that, a plane ticket to HONG KONG. A year later, they gave out the same prizes, plane tickets to HK. I understand the economy is tough but that didn't stop the racers/drivers into supporting fully on PN parts especially here in US. They may have not spend as much as they did before, but they were spending money and going to their Regionals.

Every big event race I go to has raffle draws that are sponsored by KO, Kyosho, etc... Why not have few of those parts such as: module or even board be given to the 1st place winner? Do you guys know how cheap these boards are? I understand the reason for raffle draws (give the chance for everyone to win something) but there should be some kind of incentives for winning a WORLD TITLE.

1st or last, you meet new friends. Even just watching the race but that's just not the only reason why we spend big bucks and pls don't tell me that you go out and pay $1000 for the ticket/hotel to meet new friends...

arch2b
2012.11.14, 01:54 PM
figure 8 :p we actually tried it once!

early in the kyosho usa movement it was said they would bring back the mini-z cup which did what you described, for the most part. it had requirements retailer had to meet before they would host an event at the retailers location but they did bring a series to locations, managed the event and prizes. it had it's flaws for sure but it was great for the community. i really wish they would bring the series back to the usa. hell, we tried to get kyosho interested in attending nekocon which drew 3k. just couldn't get it done.

i am happy that 3rd party manufacturers are still doing something to fill the void given the recession and higher costs. imagine for a second what would happen if they didn't... i'd be happy to win a candy bar and call it a day. the expectation that people will travel around the world for mini-z racing is crazy to begin with. unless your a sponsored driver your reach ends with regionals. even those can be challenging given the short reach they have geographically.

bcpzx3
2012.11.14, 02:21 PM
I had to post this because others can but wont, so let me be that guy and I'm cool with that... I'd like to thank you guys for sharing your opinions. Others needs to see these kinds of input.

Back in January 2008, my first real race, Atomic had an event (West Coast Regonals) and during this time, Atomic had more parts on the shelves than PN. The 1st place winners on both mod (AWD and 2WD) gets a plane ticket to Hong Kong. Let me repeat that, a plane ticket to HONG KONG. A year later, they gave out the same prizes, plane tickets to HK. I understand the economy is tough but that didn't stop the racers/drivers into supporting fully on PN parts especially here in US. They may have not spend as much as they did before, but they were spending money and going to their Regionals.

Every big event race I go to has raffle draws that are sponsored by KO, Kyosho, etc... Why not have few of those parts such as: module or even board be given to the 1st place winner? Do you guys know how cheap these boards are? I understand the reason for raffle draws (give the chance for everyone to win something) but there should be some kind of incentives for winning a WORLD TITLE.

1st or last, you meet new friends. Even just watching the race but that's just not the only reason why we spend big bucks and pls don't tell me that you go out and pay $1000 for the ticket/hotel to meet new friends...


In my own opinion, I only did the current PNWC because it was local. As far as the france one, I don't think me and 90% of the locals are willing to travel that far to compete in a race just for bragging rights and a trophy. If PN actually offered something more, than it would give more interest. Possibly the top 3 winners a sponsorship contract, or a handful of useful PN parts? Not sure what people are suppose to do with Mini-Z buggy wheels and tires, Or the extremely vintage mr-02 setup board.

Ken and Grant do a great job with supporting PN and helping fellow racers, but they can only do so much when the owner himself isn't willing to give back to the community.

ARN
2012.11.14, 02:37 PM
Ken and Grant do a great job with supporting PN and helping fellow racers, but they can only do so much when the owner himself isn't willing to give back to the community.

most ignorant comment of the year award goes too......

imxlr8ed
2012.11.14, 02:46 PM
1st or last, you meet new friends. Even just watching the race but that's just not the only reason why we spend big bucks and pls don't tell me that you go out and pay $1000 for the ticket/hotel to meet new friends...

No, but I have spent tons on track, lap counter, loaner cars. I used to spend $$$ to rent a facility every week too (if it wasn't for my basement, there would be no Zs in my area).

Maybe I'm not in it to win it, but I'm still having fun! I can vividly recall certain moments from races, little snippets of track time, interesting traffic scenarios, good passes on others and on me, spectacular movie-style crashes, days when the cars handles exquisitely and days when I couldn't hit anything but rails. All of these tiny moments come to mind much easier than who won what and when.

I get where you're coming from though... but it's just the way this is going lately with the dwindling amount of Z racers around.

phea
2012.11.14, 02:50 PM
The 1st place winners on both mod (AWD and 2WD) gets a plane ticket to Hong Kong. Let me repeat that, a plane ticket to HONG KONG. A year later, they gave out the same prizes, plane tickets to HK.

I was one of the fortunate few from the US to win a ticket to HK and wanted to chime on this. I received free hotel and air fair, Atomic reps picked me up w/ their own tour bus from the airport, during the race you were able to trade your old atomic parts for brand new replacements (defiantly took advantage of this), free tour bus ride to the after race banquet which was also free, with all the racers, and a tour of their company. Also a sponsorship for a year, not the ones for parts at cost, but free parts.

From my understanding the Atomic's presence in the US is not what it used to because of PN's dominance over here and they understand that. I still support Atomic because of how they have treated me in the past. My car's for this years race was about 90-95% atomic, other than the mandatory PN motor and wheels for certain classes. I have no problem with what PN is doing now and I appreciate them holding world races annually and I still have fun racing with the PN guys. However it wouldn't hurt for PN to spice things up for their world championship races a little since this is their home country.

bcpzx3
2012.11.14, 02:57 PM
most ignorant comment of the year award goes too......

Ah.. only if you were there at PNWC, there were numerous people who were unsatisfied with his efforts to help the racers. Ignorant you are.

ARN
2012.11.14, 03:40 PM
ok, help me understand.

I want names specific to each question.

I would like to know who paid and provided the timing system & PC hardware.
I would like to know who provided the track and who set it up. Including details of the arrangement in getting the space to hold the event in the mall.
I would like to know who prepared and organized the heats & mains.
I would like to know who provided spec motors, and cost to the racer of each motor.
I would like to know who pays for web sites and design for you and I to follow the event....
And the drivers stand, where did that come from? what was the cost?
who provided the sound system? who announced, was he paid?
who shipped and hauled all of what I listed? was there a trailer for this stuff? how much did that cost?
Was there any banners? who paid for them?
I guess that's all that come to mind for now....

does your name pop up on any of these questions? I was not there so please fill me in....

Mike Keely
2012.11.14, 05:38 PM
When I went to the PNWC a few years ago in Myrtle Beach we all went to a steak house for dinner and Phillip picked up the check when we where finished. there was no word that he was paying before hand so I think that was a big check. My guess about 12 of us.

SAGISI
2012.11.14, 09:24 PM
The biggest difference between the Mini-Z community and other scales is pretty much driven by the lack of rewards for the winners -- with rare exception I think we're a lot more closely knit and friendly with each other because we're not racing for any reward. The one time that I did I wasn't even aware that there was a prize until the end, but there were definitely some hurt feelings from the other guys who knew about the prize. I'm not a fan of those hurt feelings, and I don't think they would've surfaced had the race been a no-prize-just-bragging-rights one. My suspicion is that without the carrot at the end of the stick, the proportion of folks willing to race Mini-Z will always be small, but they'll be the ones who don't care about the cost/benefit equation, and stick around just for the fun of it.

I have to disagree as I know PN drivers get rewarded parts allowance when they finish on the podium. Although I have seen one PN driver donate his contingency to a kid, which I thought was awesome!

yasuji
2012.11.14, 10:45 PM
1st or last, you meet new friends. Even just watching the race but that's just not the only reason why we spend big bucks and pls don't tell me that you go out and pay $1000 for the ticket/hotel to meet new friends...
fun tj ... fun!
meeting new people and making new friends is the BONUS!:D
I do this cause i love it.... i enjoy the competition the people the racing all of the good and bad! and i like the fact that my driving ability is starting to improve so that i can compete with the best mini-z drivers in the WORLD!


i too thought that when i won a world title i would get bored and move on to another hobby.... boy was i wrong.... it made me hungrier to race the next one... :D

bcpzx3
2012.11.14, 10:56 PM
ok, help me understand.

I want names specific to each question.

I would like to know who paid and provided the timing system & PC hardware.
PN supplied the Giro-Z, 80% of the drivers preferred the Ilap system
I would like to know who provided the track and who set it up. Including details of the arrangement in getting the space to hold the event in the mall.
ILR broke down their track and brought it down to the event location
I would like to know who prepared and organized the heats & mains.
PN prepared the heats and mains, due to Giro-Z confusing trophies were awarded to the wrong people
I would like to know who provided spec motors, and cost to the racer of each motor.
I would like to know who pays for web sites and design for you and I to follow the event....
And the drivers stand, where did that come from? what was the cost?
Rented and ILR covered cost, I also contributed to the ramp and a local racer put the ramp together
who provided the sound system? who announced, was he paid?
Sound system was rented, Binh (owner of ILR) announced
who shipped and hauled all of what I listed? was there a trailer for this stuff? how much did that cost?
Participants of the race (mainly local racers) helped take the tables down and stack everything
Was there any banners? who paid for them?
I guess that's all that come to mind for now....

does your name pop up on any of these questions? I was not there so please fill me in....
Yes my name does pop up

Aside from all your questions, you have taken my statement completely off track.

My statement says "Ken and Grant do a great job with supporting PN and helping fellow racers, but they can only do so much when the owner himself isn't willing to give back to the community. " there had been a misunderstanding, I've spoken to Philip regarding a defect in his product, and a few other locals have been having the same problem. He would simply blame it on user error and brush me away, maybe that is not what he meant to do but that's how it came off to me.

I have also came up to Philip regarding the "live lap tracker" and he simply said that I had the wrong version Android firmware and brushed me off, which I in fact keep updated every time it warns me there is an update to install. Again maybe thats not how he meant to have approached the problem, but it seems like he didn't care much of helping. I would have assumed he would be the most willing to help or at least direct me to the right person to talk to if he doesn't have the time to help himself.
Instead of just physically turning his back to me.

Chad508: I am not saying that I wasn't getting any help from the racers, in fact Grant took the time to sit down with me and my car to help me figure things out to getting it to work properly. I am sure Chad Nelson and the PN sponsored drivers were more than willing to help me with my car or tuning help. But my problem was that Philip wasn't willing to hear me out about product defects and would just simply blame me for doing things wrong.

Not everyone is asking for money prizes or free tickets to Paris, but maybe something for the winners of each class? Could be simply an offer of the newest part for their car class, GT, Pan, F1.

chad508
2012.11.14, 11:30 PM
i here all this and i couldnt disagree more. i hope money never finds its way into this scale of racing. i have seen to many larger scale races end up in fist fights because someone punted someone and caused them a $50 prize. the fact that this racing is all for fun and bragging rights is what keeps me in it. I spent $1300-$1500 this past weekend to go to the worlds and yes the trophies are nice but honestly i spent the money to be around people that enjoy the same hobby i do. i put faces to forum names and made a lot friends. to me that is why i race these cars. if i was in it for money i would look into larger scales, but the drama that goes with those classes is not worth it to me.

as for not having support from the manufactures i couldnt disagree more. i race and promote for reflex but not once did any of the pn guys not help me if i asked. everyone is more than willing to help if you ask. i was the only reflex team driver at the worlds this year and i didnt have team members to ask advice from. but every time i asked anyone anything they were more than willing to help out and make my race experience the best it could be. and thats what i like about this scale of racing. everyone wants everyone to get better, if not you will eventually run out of competition.

thats my 2 cents

yasuji
2012.11.14, 11:42 PM
I had to post this because others can but wont, so let me be that guy and I'm cool with that... I'd like to thank you guys for sharing your opinions. Others needs to see these kinds of input.

Back in January 2008, my first real race, Atomic had an event (West Coast Regonals) and during this time, Atomic had more parts on the shelves than PN. The 1st place winners on both mod (AWD and 2WD) gets a plane ticket to Hong Kong. Let me repeat that, a plane ticket to HONG KONG. A year later, they gave out the same prizes, plane tickets to HK. I understand the economy is tough but that didn't stop the racers/drivers into supporting fully on PN parts especially here in US. They may have not spend as much as they did before, but they were spending money and going to their Regionals.

Every big event race I go to has raffle draws that are sponsored by KO, Kyosho, etc... Why not have few of those parts such as: module or even board be given to the 1st place winner? Do you guys know how cheap these boards are? I understand the reason for raffle draws (give the chance for everyone to win something) but there should be some kind of incentives for winning a WORLD TITLE.

1st or last, you meet new friends. Even just watching the race but that's just not the only reason why we spend big bucks and pls don't tell me that you go out and pay $1000 for the ticket/hotel to meet new friends...
i will discuss with PN Racing this coming week... i will suggest that the PNWC go to PN RACING AND KYOSHO PARTS ONLY... and offer airfare to the PNWC FINALS in paris france for 2 select regional races... east and west
WINNERS from select classes that have more than a minimum amount of drivers
i will push to make PANCAR MOD one of theses classes:p

yasuji
2012.11.14, 11:52 PM
i here all this and i couldnt disagree more. i hope money never finds its way into this scale of racing. i have seen to many larger scale races end up in fist fights because someone punted someone and caused them a $50 prize. the fact that this racing is all for fun and bragging rights is what keeps me in it. I spent $1300-$1500 this past weekend to go to the worlds and yes the trophies are nice but honestly i spent the money to be around people that enjoy the same hobby i do. i put faces to forum names and made a lot friends. to me that is why i race these cars. if i was in it for money i would look into larger scales, but the drama that goes with those classes is not worth it to me.

as for not having support from the manufactures i couldnt disagree more. i race and promote for reflex but not once did any of the pn guys not help me if i asked. everyone is more than willing to help if you ask. i was the only reflex team driver at the worlds this year and i didnt have team members to ask advice from. but every time i asked anyone anything they were more than willing to help out and make my race experience the best it could be. and thats what i like about this scale of racing. everyone wants everyone to get better, if not you will eventually run out of competition.

thats my 2 cents

great to race with you this past weekend chad!

color01
2012.11.15, 12:09 AM
You're going to make Stephen dump his Atomic car? That, is just cruel lol. :p

The biggest difference between the Mini-Z community and other scales is pretty much driven by the lack of rewards for the winners -- with rare exception I think we're a lot more closely knit and friendly with each other because we're not racing for any reward. The one time that I did I wasn't even aware that there was a prize until the end, but there were definitely some hurt feelings from the other guys who knew about the prize. I'm not a fan of those hurt feelings, and I don't think they would've surfaced had the race been a no-prize-just-bragging-rights one. My suspicion is that without the carrot at the end of the stick, the proportion of folks willing to race Mini-Z will always be small, but they'll be the ones who don't care about the cost/benefit equation, and stick around just for the fun of it.

RE Ray's earlier comment, I also agree that too much focus has been put on pure racing performance as the years have gone by, and while it is this site's namesake, it's not as fun anymore because we've been leaving out a whole other side of the hobby that is NOT racing. Builds like Faze's FC3S used to be very common and I lament that we have no way currently of rewarding cars like those, as we used to here on these forums and elsewhere. But that's a topic to be discussed elsewhere.



i here all this and i couldnt disagree more. i hope money never finds its way into this scale of racing. i have seen to many larger scale races end up in fist fights because someone punted someone and caused them a $50 prize. the fact that this racing is all for fun and bragging rights is what keeps me in it. I spent $1300-$1500 this past weekend to go to the worlds and yes the trophies are nice but honestly i spent the money to be around people that enjoy the same hobby i do. i put faces to forum names and made a lot friends. to me that is why i race these cars. if i was in it for money i would look into larger scales, but the drama that goes with those classes is not worth it to me.

as for not having support from the manufactures i couldnt disagree more. i race and promote for reflex but not once did any of the pn guys not help me if i asked. everyone is more than willing to help if you ask. i was the only reflex team driver at the worlds this year and i didnt have team members to ask advice from. but every time i asked anyone anything they were more than willing to help out and make my race experience the best it could be. and thats what i like about this scale of racing. everyone wants everyone to get better, if not you will eventually run out of competition.

thats my 2 cents
Should've never given you those Kyosho 30 front slicks. :D Great job fighting the glitch man, I was hoping to give you a run for your money but clearly I need to improve on my "f--- you F1, just drive!" skills.

phea
2012.11.15, 12:29 AM
i will discuss with PN Racing this coming week... i will suggest that the PNWC go to PN RACING AND KYOSHO PARTS ONLY

looks like i gotta cancle my plans for paris =( Oh well one world title is enough for me.

chad508
2012.11.15, 12:50 AM
great to race with you this past weekend chad!

Thanks grant. I don't know how much we actually got to race each other but those couple laps I got to follow was fun. 😃 maybe next time i will have something for ya

arch2b
2012.11.15, 07:58 AM
...RE Ray's earlier comment, I also agree that too much focus has been put on pure racing performance as the years have gone by, and while it is this site's namesake, it's not as fun anymore because we've been leaving out a whole other side of the hobby that is NOT racing. Builds like Faze's FC3S used to be very common and I lament that we have no way currently of rewarding cars like those, as we used to here on these forums and elsewhere. But that's a topic to be discussed elsewhere.....
feel free to email me with ideas or suggestions, i'm always looking for ways to bring encourage the 'fun' side to this hobby. i've sponsored many contests with prizes myself over the years and don't mind doing so.

RallyNut
2012.11.15, 08:43 AM
My$0.02

Perhaps to put things into a bit of perspective: The Canadian rally championship (1:1) has a prize money purse of exactly $0. There is some manufacturer contingency money but it's a tiny percent of what people pay to race.

The top teams (most private with little to no sponsorship) spend close to one hundred thousand dollars per year to race in a series with no prize money.

Nobody is forced to travel and compete in these events unless they have sponsor obligations already, which likely means that they aren't terribly concerned with the costs to run a race, it assumed that there is some out-of pocket expense to do what you love. If someone gets something out of it other than personal enjoyment, great. But if they go into it with the mindset of getting free stuff or cash, perhaps their priorities should be re-evaluated.

arch2b
2012.11.15, 09:03 AM
...Nobody is forced to travel and compete in these events unless they have sponsor obligations already, which likely means that they aren't terribly concerned with the costs to run a race, it assumed that there is some out-of pocket expense to do what you love. If someone gets something out of it other than personal enjoyment, great. But if they go into it with the mindset of getting free stuff or cash, perhaps their priorities should be re-evaluated.

wait for it...wait for it... and there it is :p free stuff is always a plus/bonus which is why the raffle portion of events are so popular. it's always exciting and many times just as much of a fun event as the event itself if you have the right crowd. i've never attended an event for 'stuff' though. i'd trade all my prizes i've won to have another event where i get to watch ed and PA gang repair a chassis with a lighter and a glue stick with nascar pitcrew like speed :p that was priceless in my book. the experiences i've had meeting other racers is far more valuable than any prize.

mleemor60
2012.11.15, 10:04 AM
I would not agree with any philosophy that limits the parts that can be used to a specific manufacturer and then proclaim and crown a World champion. Don't go out of context here. I admire Philip for his effort in creating a platform that we all can compete from even though it is kind of "the Mouse that roared". Atomic as well. Same deal. Reflex too.

For growth. Real money in the drawer growth there has to be a format where all the manufacturer's support the hobby but stay back from the sanctioning end of it. Then when there is a "World Class" event factory and independant teams can compete heads up to see which manufacturer and individual is really worthy of the term "World Champion". Competition will foster improvments in the product and parts that we all spend far too much money on.

Until something along these lines happens we are and will be relegated to what we have from who ever we get it from. Crabbing about it does nothing but dilute the effort that we all put in. Regardless of that amount. If you don't like the prize then don't compete for it. You know darn dood and well that it is only of importance if you don't win it. Wait til something better comes along. If you fill out the entry form then you are bound to compete by the written rules governing that event. It doesn't matter if you agree with them or not. You chose to be there. Make the best of it.

In most forms of Motorsports the racer's pay the promoter for the right to amuse the spectators. They are there for the competition and comraderie. Little else.

ARN
2012.11.15, 11:13 AM
Aside from all your questions, you have taken my statement completely off track.

I don't take to bashing Philip lightly.

PNracing
2012.11.15, 01:21 PM
I have also came up to Philip regarding the "live lap tracker" and he simply said that I had the wrong version Android firmware and brushed me off, which I in fact keep updated every time it warns me there is an update to install. Again maybe thats not how he meant to have approached the problem, but it seems like he didn't care much of helping. I would have assumed he would be the most willing to help or at least direct me to the right person to talk to if he doesn't have the time to help himself.
Instead of just physically turning his back to me.



Hey Tony, what are you talking about??:mad: you came up ask for Zround Android not work for your phone, did you pass your PHONE on my hand? I hold your phone try to check all setting is it correct, finally still not working only on your phone, Zround told me before only work for version 2.3 or above, so I ask you what Android version you using in your phone, you said should be updated, I'm not a CELL PHONE PROGRAMMER, so I told you I know how to fix it, is it what I did for "Brushed You Off"?:mad:

Dealing the race all my 90% time to control the lap timing system, 5% is practice and 5% is race, even I don't have anytime to setup my car, is it I'm not helping anyone or customer? that's why I sponsor Grant and Chad to help everyone in the race.

If dealing the race, I didn't help or good help anyone then make they not happy, I will say sorry about that.

Sinister_Y
2012.11.15, 01:25 PM
At the end of the day, a prize (financial or otherwise), even though a write-off for business purposes, has to come from receivables (i.e. profit from income).

In this day and age, revenue streams have declined significantly as people’s disposable income has decreased and as such, bottom lines become smaller.

The bottom line is smaller budgets to work with for promotional purposes, let alone operating costs for a business.

Out of operating costs, manufacturers spend significant budget to develop and produce new parts. So it's always a very complex matter as to what you allocate to.

My message and mantra; be grateful for what exists as it might not be there tomorrow.

Support your local hobby shop/club/track, Mini-Z manufacturers and this forum.

PNracing
2012.11.15, 01:37 PM
Some information here.

2004 when we make first PN race at New York, the each class winner got a airfare ticket to Spain for race.

2007 all international drivers to Portugal world finals is free hotel.

2006 all prizes only for top 3 drivers, so from 2007 we changed to all prizes for raffle, make everyone have chance to win the prizes instead only top 3 drivers.

2012 $40.00 entry fee including handout motor and T-shirt, we pay for mall rental cost, chair table and driver stand rental, security guard 2 over night charges.

rncrabb
2012.11.15, 01:51 PM
Ken and Grant do a great job with supporting PN and helping fellow racers, but they can only do so much when the owner himself isn't willing to give back to the community.

My radio completely died on Friday during practice and Philip went out of his way to loan me his personal radio so I could stay in the event. This is the kind of person he is. He is always trying to help fellow racers. His team drivers Grant, Chad and Rommel also helped me tune the radio so my cars would be balanced. The PN team are true ambassadors to the sport and they do their best to make sure new drivers enjoy Mini-Z racing.

bcpzx3
2012.11.15, 01:52 PM
Dealing the race all my 90% time to control the lap timing system, 5% is practice and 5% is race, even I don't have anytime to setup my car, is it I'm not helping anyone or customer? that's why I sponsor Grant and Chad to help everyone in the race.

If dealing the race, I didn't help or good help anyone then make they not happy, I will say sorry about that.

Philip, have you tried the I-lap system? It seems to be quite a easy to use program, many local racers are able to control it themselves, I have not seen the owner at the local track struggle or spend too much time with the I-lap program. Sorry that you had to spend most of your time controlling the Lap timing system over the past weekend, hopefully you will eventually figure it out so you can spend more time working on your car, driving, and help PN customers.

It is unfortunate that we were not able to be on the same page this past weekend.

phea
2012.11.15, 02:09 PM
After thinking more about this topic I came to realize that the bottom line is... Mini-Z drivers race mini-z because they love the scale and community that is in it. I believe this is the cheapest competitive on-road scale where you are able to get the most track time to have fun to test/tune and practice. For instance a local fast R/C driver has been tuning with me everyday for two weeks prior the worlds race and his mindset for after the race was to sell all his mini-z gear and focus on larger scales. But after spending so much time at the track with and learning new setups with others that shared the same interest. He ultimately decided that hes not going to sell everything because he's actually having fun spending day in and out playing mini-z's!

Mini-Z's will never be as competitive as larger scales because there is really no money in it in the first place. Sure prizes @ the worlds for winners and such would be great, but that is not what got the racers in. Plus you do have the option to attend or not, but not attending hurts the community more because in the end your not supporting your local track and companies like PN where they take their time to bring the only annual world race.

bcpzx3
2012.11.15, 02:13 PM
He ultimately decided that hes not going to sell everything because he's actually having fun spending day in and out playing mini-z's!

I may have to disagree, I believe this person has decided to not quit yet is because he got pwned by you. :p

phea
2012.11.15, 02:25 PM
Ultimately if there was prizes for flight tickets to the next worlds, those costs will be pushed to the customers and heck maybe even the host. Those costs means customers would have to buy more PN parts for the "PN AND KYOSHO parts only" type of worlds race. I didn't realize this before, but the Atomic Regionals in 08 & 09 for the plane tickets to worlds in HK, racers had to build cars with all Atomic parts.

For myself, I like to choose parts from different manufactures to see what works for me. But if everyone has expendable income (I don't :( )to build cars all by one company then i'm sure plane airfare/prizes are a possibility. But if everyone has that type of money, why not just pay for yourself to attend and in turn get a better racing experience with cars built with ideal parts from all manufactures. What does the community think of this? Because I think this is where the thread is heading towards....

PNracing
2012.11.15, 02:28 PM
Philip, have you tried the I-lap system? It seems to be quite a easy to use program, many local racers are able to control it themselves, I have not seen the owner at the local track struggle or spend too much time with the I-lap program. Sorry that you had to spend most of your time controlling the Lap timing system over the past weekend, hopefully you will eventually figure it out so you can spend more time working on your car, driving, and help PN customers.

It is unfortunate that we were not able to be on the same page this past weekend.

iLap is hardware, we talking about the software, the Zround is support iLap too.

Your question not on lap timing system, in this event no any problem for the race and result, even I resort all the round just need 5 mins, the question is Binh didn't have time to learn this program, so that's why I told him I can handle all the time don't worry. The Zround Android is newer function by Zround owner Jesus, they have no any changes on the keep develop new function, are RC Scoring Pro they make this new function and real time online on web site, may be they have it, but should need to pay.

danjoyy25
2012.11.15, 02:31 PM
Here is my 2 cents. I am a new Mini-Z fanatic, but have been racing 1/10 electrics since the 90's so I can tell you guys you are lucky to have a big event such as the PNWC. It cost money to organised and run this events and to also provide in person the customer service to anyone in the events is just time consuming. I just don't know how this Phillip guy can do it :D:D:D + seeing negative responses from other members asking for prices for the next event.

I started the Western Zydney Racer club here in Sydney, Australia. I imported all the RCP tracks and the Ilaps timing and Im almost out $3K. I also have to hire an venue to host our race meet every 2 weeks so I pay for that as well. I have to transport the RCP tracks to the venue and setup everything before everyone arrives. Iam lucky to see a few guys in the venue to help me setup in the tracks. I run the race meets as well. I also get bombarded with questions about setup by all the racers. I charge all racers $10.00 to race. After all that, I made $10.00 last meet. :eek: It is no world championships but if any of the racers come up to me and complain of no prizes, I would probably just go psycho :):):)

PNracing
2012.11.15, 02:33 PM
Ultimately if there was prizes for flight tickets to the next worlds, those costs will be pushed to the customers and heck maybe even the host. Those costs means customers would have to buy more PN parts for the "PN AND KYOSHO parts only" type of worlds race. I didn't realize this before, but the Atomic Regionals in 08 & 09 for the plane tickets to worlds in HK, racers had to build cars with all Atomic parts.

For myself, I like to choose parts from different manufactures to see what works for me. But if everyone has expendable income (I don't :( )to build cars all by one company then i'm sure plane airfare/prizes are a possibility. But if everyone has that type of money, why not just pay for yourself to attend and in turn get a better racing experience with cars built with ideal parts from all manufactures. What does the community think of this? Because I think this is where the thread is heading towards....

This is what we want to said by your mouth, if we doing ONLY PN and Kyosho parts in the race, I don't think we will have 8 year PNWC, instead of only 2009. That's why we have many oversea drivers spend over 1500.00 to PNWC.

blt456
2012.11.15, 05:06 PM
Someone pass the popcorn!!!!!!!!

ARN
2012.11.15, 05:07 PM
Here is my 2 cents. I am a new Mini-Z fanatic, but have been racing 1/10 electrics since the 90's so I can tell you guys you are lucky to have a big event such as the PNWC. It cost money to organised and run this events and to also provide in person the customer service to anyone in the events is just time consuming. I just don't know how this Phillip guy can do it :D:D:D + seeing negative responses from other members asking for prices for the next event.

I started the Western Zydney Racer club here in Sydney, Australia. I imported all the RCP tracks and the Ilaps timing and Im almost out $3K. I also have to hire an venue to host our race meet every 2 weeks so I pay for that as well. I have to transport the RCP tracks to the venue and setup everything before everyone arrives. Iam lucky to see a few guys in the venue to help me setup in the tracks. I run the race meets as well. I also get bombarded with questions about setup by all the racers. I charge all racers $10.00 to race. After all that, I made $10.00 last meet. :eek: It is no world championships but if any of the racers come up to me and complain of no prizes, I would probably just go psycho :):):)



just go psycho, some people deserve it:cool:

ARN
2012.11.15, 05:10 PM
Someone pass the popcorn!!!!!!!!
and someone change the thread title to "daggers, it's always nice to get one in the back" lol

imxlr8ed
2012.11.15, 07:06 PM
When we had our PN regional years ago, Phil was moving non-stop the entire weekend! When the printer we had died, he went out and bought us a new one right away! (I still have that printer and yes it still works!). The guy just put forth a tremendous effort and it's something that stuck with me all this time. I had him sign the PN Banner he gave us and it still hangs above our track today.

Doubt you'll find many haters here, either we're all brainwashed or he's just that much of an asset to our community!

Prizes are obviously awesome though, but since I rarely make it to an a-main anymore, I really have no issue with it.

lfisminiz
2012.11.15, 07:40 PM
Also my 2 cents worth....:)
All make good points. This is only my opinion and personal experience.;)
For me, i just love to get out and race the little i get a chance to. Im one of those that care more about doing the best i can and hang out with my race buddies that i only get to see a couple times a year. Trophies are great with me. Wish i made it out there...awesome looking trophies.
As far as Philip (PN), i really dont know any other manufacture/race organizer that does as much for the mini-z community that Philip has done since i started in 04. I know Philip from meeting him at numerous PN regional over the year here on the East Coast. I consider him a freind now. Also met many of the PN drivers...same thing. Considering a few years ago a big race drew 30-50 people and now your looking at more like 20 if your lucky. I think Philip has always gone that little xtra for us.
Race, have fun, be happy with what we have.:D

twinkie
2012.11.15, 07:43 PM
Someone pass the popcorn!!!!!!!!

+1

I guess the rule is a minimum of 10 characters in a post.

yasuji
2012.11.15, 09:59 PM
i will discuss with PN Racing this coming week... i will suggest that the PNWC go to PN RACING AND KYOSHO PARTS ONLY... and offer airfare to the PNWC FINALS in paris france for 2 select regional races... east and west
WINNERS from select classes that have more than a minimum amount of drivers
i will push to make PANCAR MOD one of theses classes:p

alright ladies and gentelmen.... we had a full day of discussion on this matter and my idea was on the table:D ..... it was shot down... (applause)
PN Racing has decided to keep things the same for many years to come! there will be the yearly rules revisions and such... but the PNWC will stay as it is....:D




for those that know me ...u know my stance on the subject:p...one brand racing is not my cup of tea...i am all for racing against other manufactures/clubs/country's that's what makes it racing!:D

so i guess we will not be seeing a long awaited return of the 2008 PNWC awd MOD champ any time soon..:D..just guessing!

Atomic-USA
2012.11.15, 10:48 PM
Grant, Atomic is interested in teaming up with Kyosho USA and any other aftermarket manufacturers such as PN Racing to host Mini-z Events together in the USA for 2013 and beyond. The economy is hurting race turnouts everywhere and organizing a race can be tough for one manufacturer alone; please see if PN would be interested in a partnership. We were planning to do events for this year in the USA but decided to wait it out. I think a partnership may work and bring new ideas to the table.

bcpzx3
2012.11.16, 12:46 AM
Grant, Atomic is interested in teaming up with Kyosho USA and any other aftermarket manufacturers such as PN Racing to host Mini-z Events together in the USA for 2013 and beyond. The economy is hurting race turnouts everywhere and organizing a race can be tough for one manufacturer alone; please see if PN would be interested in a partnership. We were planning to do events for this year in the USA but decided to wait it out. I think a partnership may work and bring new ideas to the table.

it would be great to see this happen. i hope rcx2008 doesnt repeat where i had to see atomic being denied to enter the race because of some drama between the two....

color01
2012.11.16, 01:42 AM
For myself, I like to choose parts from different manufactures to see what works for me. But if everyone has expendable income (I don't :( )to build cars all by one company then i'm sure plane airfare/prizes are a possibility. But if everyone has that type of money, why not just pay for yourself to attend and in turn get a better racing experience with cars built with ideal parts from all manufactures. What does the community think of this? Because I think this is where the thread is heading towards....
I'm pretty sure it costs less to build a one-company car rather than experimenting with different versions of similar parts from different manufacturers. On the other hand, if we're talking about allowing/disallowing race entries then it's not economically feasible for racers to build a special car just for one race. With all due respect to Atomic, keeping their 2009 policy would prevent any big Atomic race from occurring ever again in the US.

As far as Atomic/PN partnering goes, I think it could be a good idea -- most successful race organizations are comprised of an amicable, if not friendly, group drawn from the involved manufacturers. The thing I, as a "casual" racer, most want to see is more funding and promotion for the series and World race. The actual race running itself has been handled just fine in no part from Philip's monumental effort every year, but cooler/bigger raffle prizes, more racer entrants, more classes (if realistic)! and advertising online and in print would make the PNWC (or whatever WC it would become) a bigger, better version of what is already very good.

SAGISI
2012.11.16, 09:45 AM
If mini-z wants to grow in popularity I believe we have to target racers and enthusiast who are already in this hobby. Getting a new racer to drop $300+ for a tiny car is asking a lot. Its also alot for a guy who already races r/c cars, but the difference is the seasoned racer knows it costs money to compete at a high level and if they are into mini-z they will do what it takes to win. Its easy to get these people to come out and race with us but it is hard to get them to really get into it. 99% of the guys I ask say its FUN! But those 99% also wouldnt get one.. Reason being... "RCP TRACK". I think going carpet tracks (w/o wood rails) will bring out the 10th scale crowd.

arch2b
2012.11.16, 10:37 AM
i disagree. RCP is what created the local club boom providing the opportunity to the local level to race on what larger scale clubs and event run on. love or hate it, RCP contributed greatly to this community.

honestly, i've raced on carpet before RCP and i prefer RCP. the biggest hurdle by far for the 1/10 crowd is simply getting over the opinion that mini-z is a toy. i'm not so sure the baggage that comes with the 1/10 crowd is really the best for mini-z either.

mleemor60
2012.11.16, 11:24 AM
I whole heartedly agree with you on that one.

PNracing
2012.11.16, 11:51 AM
it would be great to see this happen. i hope rcx2008 doesnt repeat where i had to see atomic being denied to enter the race because of some drama between the two....

Tony, what are you talking about again, we never denied anyone sign up for PNWC race, in our past all years, we have Atomic drivers in our race, in RCX 2008 we spend the money to make the race to promotion PN and Mini-Z, the Atomic boss from HK with Alan Mok, just go to our race hang out the Atomic stuff to drivers, and we didn't do anything, but RCX staff try to tell them, they can't do that, because they didn't pay any exhibitor fee, if Tamiya make the race at Tamiya track, do you think Kyosho will go to Tamiya track give all free stuff to drivers to promote at Tamiya track, is it correct?

I think many drivers saw Atomic drivers in our race since first PNWC 2005, but never have PN drivers in Atomic race, becuause their rules only Atomic and Kyosho parts. Do you think the Kyosho drivers will buy a Tamiya car then go to Tamiya race??

briankstan
2012.11.16, 12:10 PM
Tony, what are you talking about again, we never denied anyone sign up for PNWC race, in our past all years, we have Atomic drivers in our race, in RCX 2008 we spend the money to make the race to promotion PN and Mini-Z, the Atomic boss from HK with Alan Mok, just go to our race hang out the Atomic stuff to drivers, and we didn't do anything, but RCX staff try to tell them, they can't do that, because they didn't pay any exhibitor fee, if Tamiya make the race at Tamiya track, do you think Kyosho will go to Tamiya track give all free stuff to drivers to promote at Tamiya track, is it correct?

I've been to 2 of the RCX Races and was at this one in 2008. Philip and John from RCP organized and put on this race only to have a competitor show up to try and get some free advertising in when not even having a booth at the show. In my opinion it was disrespectful. Phillip and John both were great hosts and offered me great hospitality and help as well as all the other drivers there to compete and have fun.

When I attended the next year, Philip had one of the PN guys pick me up from the airport and was always there to help when time was available. There were also guys there running all brands of parts with no issue.

I've hosted larger events and it's challenging enough to host them, let alone try to race while doing so.

Atomic-USA
2012.11.16, 12:11 PM
Atomic is currently looking for future collaboration and oppotunites with PN and other manufacturers to promote Mini-z Racing together in the USA. Let's forget about what happened in the past. Can't we all just get along?

imxlr8ed
2012.11.16, 12:13 PM
I've ran my Zs on a few dedicated carpet tracks for 10th and 12th scale and all I can say is... instant bearing clog! Now if it's a well swept, no wrinkle carpet track, no problem! Almost every one of them either had a spot where I went airborne or had so much crap wrapped around my diff that the car started to slow. The Zs are at that scale where the surface has to be well kept, every little pebble and tiny twig may as well be a boulder and a fallen tree.

Now if it's a dedicated carpet track for Zs, no problem. Carpet is a really fun surface to drive on and drifting is much easier on it as well. But there is a certain level of control that RCP has that carpet just can't match. I think it's great to have a surface that I can practice on at home and then go to a race that runs the same thing. It's obviously never a direct match but it's always in the ballpark.

As far as entry level... I think there should be a class that consists of the following:

Stock Mini-Z
70turn motor
Bearings
Carbon H-plate (MM, RM, 02 & 03)
Tire Set
Alloy knuckles (1 degree camber)

All cars would run stock diff and standard pinion (9 tooth preferrably)

Racer would obviously provide the Z, the manufacturers would each build their own kit consisting of the balance of the parts. Kind of like a Manufacturers Challenge race in that they (PN, Atomic, Reflex... whoever) would have to find the best combination of these items to out-perform the other. Would be good for the new buyer to have an instant idea as to what to buy for their new Zs, we've all seen the threads on here constantly... "what to buy first?". I think this would be a great answer to that question! You could even give them a discount on the RTR Z if they order the Starter Package from your site, might move more RTRs off the shelf!

Tires and plates would have to have specific markings, and the motors would have to be tamper evident.

Just shooting out ideas...

briankstan
2012.11.16, 12:17 PM
RE: the RCP Track.

I would have to disagree that RCP track is a limiting factor, in fact I would offer a completely different take, without RCP Track I would imagine that most if not all of the exiting clubs that race weekly or bid weekly would even still exit if it weren't for RCP tracks and being able to race on the same track that larger event were held on.

Most of the guys that attend events run at a club level somewhere, where in most case 1 individual has invested their hard earned money to improve the racing at the club level with the purchase of a RCP track and some sort of timing system. These are the same drivers that are attending regional races and the PNWC from around the world. These same clubs support the Z's with their members purchasing aftermarket part and providing the few options that the Mini-z Racers have available to them.

SAGISI
2012.11.16, 12:22 PM
i disagree. RCP is what created the local club boom providing the opportunity to the local level to race on what larger scale clubs and event run on. love or hate it, RCP contributed greatly to this community.

honestly, i've raced on carpet before RCP and i prefer RCP. the biggest hurdle by far for the 1/10 crowd is simply getting over the opinion that mini-z is a toy. i'm not so sure the baggage that comes with the 1/10 crowd is really the best for mini-z either.

Yes, RCP has contributed to the mini-z community. But mini-z needs a spark and is on its down fall. If your happy with your 10-15 regulars at your local club then by all means make no changes. Im just giving you my 2 cents and sharing what I have been told by other scale racers. And those racers that are telling me this are not your average joe. They are drivers that you see in magazines, websites, etc.

I believe the 1/10th crowd will benefit mini-z tremendously. For example: This past weekend Team Kyosho driver Cody Turner came out to race with us. Everyone was not only star struck but got their ass handed by a guy who raced mini z for 2 weeks. Cody was also one of the friendliest guys in the pits and was very approachable. What does this do for the mini-z community you ask? One it pushes people that have been doing mini-z for a while to be even faster and to set new goals/standard. The biggest thing it did was now all Cody's friends (bigger scale drivers) know about mini-z and wont think of it as "a toy". If Cody were to get guys like Tebo, Maifield, Cavalieri to mini-z, then will get a ton of exposure and be on the map.

PN racing is in the meca of R/C! You would think that they would have the most turn out. I heard at the regional's they had about 10. Drive a few miles down the street and you have 150 entries at a offroad Wednesday club race.

danjoyy25
2012.11.16, 12:37 PM
Those guys are busy enough as it is racing where the money is. If Kyosho wants there factory drivers to run Mini-z then it's only an email away,but its not going to happen me thinks.

SAGISI
2012.11.16, 01:43 PM
Those guys are busy enough as it is racing where the money is. If Kyosho wants there factory drivers to run Mini-z then it's only an email away,but its not going to happen me thinks.

I didnt know these top tier drivers have a secretary on these forums:D. All im saying is that we need a change to get more interest. Stay the same and more and more mini-z guys will do something else.

arch2b
2012.11.16, 01:48 PM
ok, granted having a star 1/10 driver show up and run around you is great. the 99% of the rest of us live with the locals. as it turns out, we actually do have several 1/10 driver in mini-z locally and they all say they enjoy the atmosphere of mini-z much more. i agree, mini-z actually does help hone skills for larger classes.

hedging bets on bringing drives down in scale is not going to provide the spark you are looking for and certainly not switching to carpet tracks. in 12 years it has not happened and statistically speaking, it's not likely to happen. doesn't mean it can't, it's just unlikely. i believe the community needs the spark from the non racing community actually. that is where the majority has been historically and where it lost the most over the years.

Mike Keely
2012.11.16, 02:17 PM
Yes, RCP has contributed to the mini-z community. But mini-z needs a spark and is on its down fall. If your happy with your 10-15 regulars at your local club then by all means make no changes. Im just giving you my 2 cents and sharing what I have been told by other scale racers. And those racers that are telling me this are not your average joe. They are drivers that you see in magazines, websites, etc.

I believe the 1/10th crowd will benefit mini-z tremendously. For example: This past weekend Team Kyosho driver Cody Turner came out to race with us. Everyone was not only star struck but got their ass handed by a guy who raced mini z for 2 weeks. Cody was also one of the friendliest guys in the pits and was very approachable. What does this do for the mini-z community you ask? One it pushes people that have been doing mini-z for a while to be even faster and to set new goals/standard. The biggest thing it did was now all Cody's friends (bigger scale drivers) know about mini-z and wont think of it as "a toy". If Cody were to get guys like Tebo, Maifield, Cavalieri to mini-z, then will get a ton of exposure and be on the map.

PN racing is in the meca of R/C! You would think that they would have the most turn out. I heard at the regional's they had about 10. Drive a few miles down the street and you have 150 entries at a offroad Wednesday club race.

I would be very suprised if you see Cody there in two months from now. I had a few guys here that were in the A main at the ROAR on road Nats last year. If you don't have high level drivers at your track weekly I think they get bored and go back to the larger classes. My $.02

SAGISI
2012.11.16, 02:18 PM
we actually do have several 1/10 driver in mini-z locally and they all say they enjoy the atmosphere of mini-z much more. i agree, mini-z actually does help hone skills for larger classes.

Share that loving atmosphere with more of the 1/10 drivers and mini-z will grow. Go out to some 1/10 races and show them how fast mini-z guys are. All 1/10 guys know at my track that if you race mini-z you are probably pretty fast. Thats one way i get 1/10 guys to come out and mini-z.

Hard thing is to get them into it. Why dont they like it? "RCP track". Most of them are used to racing on smooth seamless surfaces that make there car consistent and predictable. Yes, some RCP tracks I raced on are buttery smooth(when new and from same batch). RCP rails grab you when you take a tight line, Rails also make your car bounce back into traffic, uneven tiles, etc. Remember these are complaints I here from these guys and not necessarily how i feel about it. Racing on RCP also requires a car to be heavily modified from the get go. Have you ever tried racing a box stock z on rcp? it sucks! Which makes initial start cost go up and scares away new drivers.

danjoyy25
2012.11.16, 02:21 PM
6months ago I didn't have a mini-Z, but now we have a club and close to 30+ racers so we are doing our bit here down under. :D:D:

If 5 guys on here do the same and start a mini-z racing in there local neighbourhood, it is not impossible to attract 5-10 new mini-z racers. So thats another new 25-50 new recruit. :D:D: Im a 1/10 racer and most of the racer we have so you just need someone to start it off.

or

Get Losi or Associated or any of the big manufacturers make a 1/28 scale R/C. Then you will see the 150-300 drivers per meet :D:D:D:D:D
Imagine getting a salary of $50K-$100K & flying business class every week to anywhere in the world racing Mini-Z:D

ucdinh
2012.11.16, 02:43 PM
Wow... that was a lot of reading. Now onto my rant.

I have spent the last 5 years of my life dedicating myself to growing the mini-z community in the bay area and about 50k dollars invested...

As many of you know Fast Pace Racing is no longer in business... we converted the business to a just a club now.

I'm not going to blame the economy... and I was still capable of keeping the shop open much longer, but I was tired of lack of support.

And TJ, thank for you introducing me to the shop, it was a very good run.

At the beginning there was decent support both from PN and Atomic. As the years went, it just declined. Atomic pretty much pulled out completely.

I felt that Inside Line Racing and PN racing were one sided in all their efforts to not really care about Fast Pace Racing, and for ILR understandable, I know this is a business, but when you say you want to build the community and get everyone together that doesn't happen at all. And as a business goes... competition is actually good to have, it allows people to have choices.

At the finals, I had a message from PN asking for my support to sponsor PNWC with more track pieces and such at the last minute, you guys knew my shop is less than 15 minutes away from where the worlds took place but not once did you involve me in any planning and even a hint at trying to work together with me, and you guys know that FPR brings half of the mini-z crowd to all your races. That's why this years PNWC no one from FPR attended.

The last PN regional attempt. PN support didn't even come out when they said they would and at the last minute pulled out and when I hyped everyone up for the event and they find out no PN people will be there, they dropped out as well.

Being in such close proximity to PN Headquarters I would think that we would get more involved and work closer together, that was never the case. I actively catered to PN parts over any other brand and made sure to push the brand, but now that I look back, it wasn't worth it. I had made it very apparent that PN was the brand to go for in the shop, banners up everywhere counters full of PN swag.

I hope this feedback makes an impact on the way you do business. Maybe it was this partnership PN had with ILR that they didn't want to involve my shop, but I hope the best of luck to your future.

As for me I am happily racing at our new track at Aero micro now, I will be brining the FPR guys out there to race and hangout.

Good luck to the future of mini-z.

Let the bashing begin.

I'm out.

blt456
2012.11.16, 03:17 PM
Somebody really needs to pass the popcorn!

ARN
2012.11.16, 03:30 PM
At the finals, I had a message from PN asking for my support to sponsor PNWC with more track pieces and such at the last minute, you guys knew my shop is less than 15 minutes away from where the worlds took place but not once did you involve me in any planning and even a hint at trying to work together with me, and you guys know that FPR brings half of the mini-z crowd to all your races. That's why this years PNWC no one from FPR attended.

so did you provide the track sections requested?

ucdinh
2012.11.16, 03:51 PM
so did you provide the track sections requested?

No I did not.

ARN
2012.11.16, 03:58 PM
No I did not.

fwiw, based on your description I can't say I would have either.... I'm the king of grudges...:D

twinkie
2012.11.16, 04:04 PM
Somebody really needs to pass the popcorn!

I ate it all... I'll through another bag in the microwave

twinkie
2012.11.16, 04:07 PM
I seem to have gotten lost throughout the thread...

umm.... what is the goal or purpose in mind for this thread?

Atomic-USA
2012.11.16, 04:13 PM
I seem to have gotten lost throughout the thread...

umm.... what is the goal or purpose in mind for this thread?

I am not sure; I was looking for an amicable partnership and collaboration for future Mini-z US events . It then turned into a history lesson + RCP/Carpet debate with various rants inbetween.

imxlr8ed
2012.11.16, 04:21 PM
I'm just hoping for a really cool Manufacturers Cup out of this! (see my previous attempt at a threadjack, post #58 :D)

ARN
2012.11.16, 04:40 PM
I'm just hoping for a really cool Manufacturers Cup out of this! (see my previous attempt at a threadjack, post #58 :D)

Las Vegas!

Tjay
2012.11.16, 04:41 PM
umm.... what is the goal or purpose in mind for this thread?

I was hoping that the 2012 PNWC winners gets some incentives for winning a WORLD TITLE. At least an entry fee for the 2013 PN Regionals... Something that's just not the trophy.

Read some, skipped some... At least it's not boring today and normally Friday is slow...

...now pass me that popcorn! :D

arch2b
2012.11.16, 04:43 PM
When it comes to mini-z racing, there is never a shortage of opinions :). Made for a good day to check on replies.

twinkie
2012.11.16, 04:53 PM
I am not sure; I was looking for an amicable partnership and collaboration for future Mini-z US events . It then turned into a history lesson + RCP/Carpet debate with various rants inbetween.

Its entertaining to say the least... I think that would be cool to have a joint manufactures race.

As far as the debate between carpet and 1/10th scale drivers and so forth... everyone can debate about it until they are blue in the face, but unless someone tries to put it together its all going to be a hypothetical scenario.


We had a bunch of 1/10th scale guys come to FPR one night... I swear we had about 80 drivers for just a friday night fun run. I haven't seen any of them back. So I'm sure Sagisi got a lot of feedback that night.

But even if a carpet track opens for the guys who don't want RCP, doesnt mean it will last. Depends on how dedicated the customers are.

ARN
2012.11.16, 04:54 PM
I was hoping that the 2012 PNWC winners gets some incentives for winning a WORLD TITLE. At least an entry fee for the 2013 PN Regionals... Something that's just not the trophy.

Read some, skipped some... At least it's not boring today and normally Friday is slow...

...now pass me that popcorn! :D

first off, It's not really a "World Title", I would say "Championship Race Title"
and IMO as someone else mentioned; Money and prizes will ruin things....
also, trophies are a waste of money, put the money into the event, like food & drink and more importantly a great venue, for instance RCX is the last place I will ever again go racing z's! with all the noise and people and glitching etc.. etc... it sucked. one of the reasons I didnt go to this last race was because it was in a mall...

anyway, keep in mind people dont spend money in travel and hotel for prizes, they do it for the entertainment, memories and self challenge of racing Z's....

imxlr8ed
2012.11.16, 04:57 PM
I think that would be cool to have a joint manufactures race.

Whoa!... guess that race will definitely be held in California then!

j/k :rolleyes:

changw414
2012.11.16, 04:59 PM
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/30338318.jpg

arch2b
2012.11.16, 05:08 PM
...As far as the debate between carpet and 1/10th scale drivers and so forth... everyone can debate about it until they are blue in the face, but unless someone tries to put it together its all going to be a hypothetical scenario....

its far from hypothetical, it's been tried for 12 years. the fact that large scale guys still don't take it seriously shows that even after 12 years, it's not likely to change. inroads have been made for sure but it's not something i would put a lot of stock in for any number of reasons.

changw414
2012.11.16, 05:09 PM
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/30338931.jpg

:D

miniznewb
2012.11.16, 05:10 PM
As someone fairly new to the racing side of miniz I must say the few guys I race with locally( members on here) are by far more helpful as far as wanting you to learn and get better and offering you parts or cars at prices there practically giving away. I've have been to and entered in 1/10th scale races many times at the local track and I'd much rather race with the mini-z guys then the 1/10th scale. This to me is a hobby and just like any other hobby I do not expect to get paid to do it, its about the fun.
Once in awhile the 1/10th races you would get a gift card for a prize and instantly the fun is gone. Everyone complaining this and that he bumped me my lap didn't count and so on. Take the money away and you get a good hit on someone by accident no problem its all in good fun. I still do the 1/10th but I don't even consider going to prize races

As far as Phil and pn racing goes I have nothing bad to say. I've sent them many emails about there products and set-up that with the time they take to respond prolly lost money on purchases here and there. Unfornutly I do not get to travel to any of the big races and such and have not been able to meet him in person.

As far as prize difference from atomic to pn races and such if you look atomic is a fairly bigger company as they develop produce and sell parts for a much larger market then just mini-z. They have more to give but as you see they hit the point where it was no longer worth it to them to hold the events and offer such prizes. PN on the other hand prolly continues to lose money on every event they hold based on what it cost them and how much it is to enter them.

Even the community online here is way better then other scale rc, as I've mentioned I do not travel for races and I've met about 4 of the members on this site, any time I message someone about a set up they have posted or whatever it may be its always a quick reply with them trying to help you out as much as they can.

ucdinh
2012.11.16, 05:15 PM
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/30339365.jpg

twinkie
2012.11.16, 05:21 PM
I was hoping that the 2012 PNWC winners gets some incentives for winning a WORLD TITLE. At least an entry fee for the 2013 PN Regionals... Something that's just not the trophy.

Read some, skipped some... At least it's not boring today and normally Friday is slow...

...now pass me that popcorn! :D

Personally I would like to go to the 2013 Worlds, and it works for me as I'm not much a site see-er type of person. So for me its great to check out another part of the world with a big group of friends, and race mini-z.

It maybe expensive but so what its fun. So I can see how people spend money to travel. Last month I finished up the RCFIA series... it was a small series but required traveling, I spent close to about $1800 to compete in the series with the travel expenses.

ARN
2012.11.16, 06:18 PM
They have more to give but as you see they hit the point where it was no longer worth it to them to hold the events and offer such prizes. PN on the other hand prolly continues to lose money on every event they hold based on what it cost them and how much it is to enter them.

another reason why most of my z budget is spent at kenonhobby.com...... Philip has made things happen and has givin to the z community something to look forward to each year... even regional events are just as great to look forward too...!

ARN
2012.11.16, 06:24 PM
btw, I realize there are many that help Philip in all this event stuff so I mean no disrespect to them by referring to only Philip. I generalize to the last decade... if you know what I mean.....:cool:

twinkie
2012.11.16, 06:37 PM
does anyone have any thoughts on a combined manufactures event? I think that would be good. But I really guess how that would happen would be to have a completely independent national with the manufactures being the sponsors to help get the event up and running.

But then it comes down to... who... what...when...where... and $$$$$

yasuji
2012.11.16, 08:18 PM
Grant, Atomic is interested in teaming up with Kyosho USA and any other aftermarket manufacturers such as PN Racing to host Mini-z Events together in the USA for 2013 and beyond. The economy is hurting race turnouts everywhere and organizing a race can be tough for one manufacturer alone; please see if PN would be interested in a partnership. We were planning to do events for this year in the USA but decided to wait it out. I think a partnership may work and bring new ideas to the table.

atomic usa.... pm sent!:D

what..... what r u lookin at?..... yeah ... im talkin to u....j/k:p

Cherub1m
2012.11.16, 08:51 PM
Grant, Atomic is interested in teaming up with Kyosho USA and any other aftermarket manufacturers such as PN Racing to host Mini-z Events together in the USA for 2013 and beyond. The economy is hurting race turnouts everywhere and organizing a race can be tough for one manufacturer alone; please see if PN would be interested in a partnership. We were planning to do events for this year in the USA but decided to wait it out. I think a partnership may work and bring new ideas to the table.

I think that is the best idea I've heard for Miniz's in a long while.

twinkie
2012.11.17, 01:19 PM
what..... what r u lookin at?..... yeah ... im talkin to u....j/k:p



Is it Beer:30 yet...haha

raiderdave
2012.11.18, 04:08 AM
How disappointing. Mini Z community discussing topics not beneficial to the hobby. "Hobby"! Well most topics. I hear a lot of hurt feelings and people feeling they are owed for their involvement. Don't like it, don't do it. Want to make it better, do something about it. You have something to say, get a hold of the person and tell him personally and squash it. This forum should not be for your personal gripes. If at any moment the hobby doesn't give you the satisfaction you are expecting, then walk away. Things find a way to survive with or without the majority. The ones who sincerely love it keep it alive. Everyone knows exactly what is involved when they sign up to race at an event. Why weren't these ideas and concerns brought up before the event? Your questions would've been answered and then you could've made a better judgement on attending. Can't cry over spilled milk. Too late. I look forward to continue racing and sharpening my skills wether or not most of you are or are not there. Personal satisfaction. Peace!

arch2b
2012.11.18, 10:19 AM
i don't see it as personal gripes as much as voicing an opinion that in itself expands on the topic and brings hopefully a greater understanding of the issue. not all opinions are nice ones, as mature people we should be able to read this and respond with reason order. some things were said that were better off done in a more appropriate setting but the original topic i felt was an appropriate topic for public debate and discussion, to which i think many people contributed good thought and opinion. as with any message board, it's easy to wander off topic. :rolleyes:

imxlr8ed
2012.11.18, 01:17 PM
I think it's just a build-up of all kinds of topics that are on racers minds. I think we all want to find out a way to get this scale to blow up all over the place. So... what's it gonna take? Is there somthing lacking or is something missing entirely? I'd be curious to see everyones opinion on that subject alone.

color01
2012.11.19, 02:21 AM
I think you guys gotta be careful what you wish for -- larger scales are big partially because of human culture ("that tiny thing costs $300, heck no I'd rather this big one") but also because it's structured more like a legitimate sporting hobby, and people get into it to compete. With Mini-Z, we "compete" but my impression is that sometimes we also stress non-competitiveness in order to keep everything less serious. The lack of seriousness is a big damper on how large you can make Mini-Z racing: how legitimate is a racing event where the racers run "just to have a good time?" For an outsider, looking to compete, looking in, you can see how this doesn't make sense. As a former tennis player I see it and I think I understand it, but at the same time Mini-Z is just so much more comfortable than any other hobby I've had: It's almost like Mini-Z is a gentlemen's club society rather than racing, and that's a very different appeal than what I've seen playing sports and watching the larger scale RC guys operate.

My guess is that Mini-Z racing, in order to gain racers, will have to start marketing towards groups that are not traditionally competitive, but do have an interest in cars and tech and do naturally form small close-bonded communities. The idea to replace RCX with an anime convention race, the idea of holding Skinny/90mm/Hatchback/"Street stance" events, the idea of marketing to 1:1 car culture (rather than the 1:1 racers), all of these are good IMO to attract more dedicated Mini-Z enthusiasts. In general, we're not looking for a hardcore racing experience (there's 1/10 TC and 1/12 Pan for that), we're an offbeat little group just trying to be different and have fun, and I think the best way to expand our reach is to find people who would naturally/statistically be more inclined to appreciate what we offer. Kyosho America has their work cut out for them IMO, but unfortunately their big sell in the USA is not us. I dunno, Mini-Z as a niche market and a nearly "disposable" customer base (to a large company at least) has always had us in this kind of a pickle, subject to how much the large manufacturer cares.

imxlr8ed
2012.11.19, 03:19 AM
So, if Kyosho was to take say... A few of their top US drivers and set them up with MiniZs, do you think that would promote the scale?

Every shop I go to, I see Losi, Traxxas and Associated banners flying all over the place. It's rare to see a new Kyosho banner at almost any of them. Now is this due to a rift between Kyosho and major distibutors? Is that part of the hold-back?

I don't see many other Kyosho promotions for their larger scales either. Or am I just missimg them?

I guess most of us dedicated Zers on here feel a bit like Kyosho started them on this whole craze and then just up and abandoned them for their original family! (could be just me though) Now they are still making them and turning out new bodies and such, but it's just a dead zone when it comes to actual race promotion. Do they even have a club directory on their website for the Zs? If no... why the hell not?!?!

arch2b
2012.11.19, 08:15 AM
I think you guys gotta be careful what you wish for -- larger scales are big partially because of human culture ("that tiny thing costs $300, heck no I'd rather this big one") but also because it's structured more like a legitimate sporting hobby, and people get into it to compete. With Mini-Z, we "compete" but my impression is that sometimes we also stress non-competitiveness in order to keep everything less serious.....

not going to quote the entire reply but that was very well done sir :cool: i could not agree more.

mike m. pushed kyosho with great vigor to support/attend nekocon. it was at the same time nekocon was looking to make our little racing side attraction something more serious as well. it was the perfect storm that fizzled and blew away. where else do you have 3,000 paying attendee's show up with the expressed interest in Asian culture/experience? kyosho could have setup a 'lifestyle' type exhibit similar to what they actually already do in jpn. we always felt it was a no brainer. hell, they may have sold out all the alice motors autoscales and other various skynet autoscales/readysets. just one in a long line of perceived failings on Kyosho's part.

mleemor60
2012.11.19, 10:00 AM
I don't see it as a failing on their part. Just a total malaise and general lack of interest in what we do here in the States. Don't misinterpret the thoughts and statement. The big"K" has a model they follow because it work for them. Why else would they sell all the new incoming product to etailers and re-sellers so that the local hobby shop that supports them can't get access until their customers have made all of the "Horshack ooh, ooh, ooh me first Mr Kotter" purchases from somebody else. Now when the shops that support Us, the racers get to provide a bite everybody is full. And yet, we expect them to host our events and give up retail space for what is at best a miniscule percentage of the business.

It will be up to us, the end users to make things grow. Why, for the life of me, I can't understand why in area's that have shops within a reasonable distance of each other don't start and heavily promote an inner-series between themselves. Work out a rules package that benefits them both by increasing participation. Face it. The buy in for this hobby in general, not just our scale is borderline insane. The economy aside. A large governing factor isn't the bottom line but the worry over how long will this place be here for me to play after the purchase is made. With cross town enterprises working together on promotions a prospective buyer sees more than a single outlet for participation. Sure. Buyers will gravitate to one shop or the other for various reasons but both shops gain. This can work better if the two or more shops involved are running on different surfaces. It fosters more ways to compete. It improves the breed and puts dollars in the drawer for both parties.

This can start to grow in pockets all across the country. Nor-Cal. NY-NJ. MD-DC.
All of the mentioned area's have capable leadership in place within the individual groups. Lets get a little teamwork going and start some cross town rivalries and make it grow. It has been working in The NC-SC area for a couple of years now. There has been some ebb and flow but the two groups have a sturdy base and a willingness to keep it going and growing. It's not that hard once everybody gets over their "I" problems and starts to look at the bigger overall picture.

If all you want to do is p1ss and moan about how things are going then get a set of drift tires and chase the cat. If you truly want to make it grow then start to form some progressive alliances and move things along or as the old saying goes "lead, follow or get out of the way". Make things a little less"me" and a lot more "we" and see what happens.

Nuff said.

arch2b
2012.11.19, 02:51 PM
i respectfully disagree on several points. rivalry is seldom peaceful endeavor. not saying it can't be pulled off but more often than not it creates tension where none need exist. the second is traveling. there are some clubs that do this in spades, others that don't. our club for example doesn't 'travel' well due to the spread out nature of our own membership. there are always a few willing to pack it up and travel but for the most part, no. and i really can't blame them either. geographically, it just doesn't work well in our area here a 30 mile distance can often take 1.5 hours to travel. we mix it up with another local club but for the benefit of both vs. a rivalry. again, this may work for some groups but i am willing to say for most it doesn't. i wouldn't characterize this as putting any less an effort into building the community either as there are countless ways that can be done that are more appropriate to the group so not really sure branding everyone within very narrow factions is even helpful.

imxlr8ed
2012.11.19, 05:47 PM
i respectfully disagree on several points. rivalry is seldom peaceful endeavor. not saying it can't be pulled off but more often than not it creates tension where none need exist.

Of course, there is always HFAY!!! We had rivalries with people we've never even met! I remember hearing the name "Hood" being thrown around a while back in our HFAY days! Great to have competition from all over! It's awesome to wait for those results to see if you got them... or if they got you!

not really sure branding everyone within very narrow factions is even helpful.

I'm looking forward to the next BTE! And we're gonna beat all those DC losers! ;)

j/k guys... felt like branding.

arch2b
2012.11.19, 06:02 PM
:p HFAY isn't really an apple to apple issue as it's formatted as a global competition, which has it's own share of drama over the years :rolleyes: one can chuck a wheel/tire only so far in hope of clobbering the rival when they are cross continent :p it's another issue when your in the next room though... i personally prefer to enjoy racing whenever possible thus avoid creating artificial stressors. i create enough within myself when making last minute changes or putting on a new set of shoes just before a main:o

all this being said, there are those that can pull this off as mike suggests. it's not a bad idea of you can make it work. i eagerly would be a competitor to mike but we always end up on the same team:confused: Ed's going down though! don't forget to bring the baby wipes to clean up the tears... :p

imxlr8ed
2012.11.19, 07:49 PM
Just picked some up actually... with lotion!

DanDan
2012.11.19, 10:38 PM
Lets get a little teamwork going and start some cross town rivalries and make it grow.

With all due respect, this is a terrible idea. There's been a crosstown rivalry since before I started Mini-Z between some of the racers at ILR and FPR. The two tracks were located exactly 10.6 miles from each other. The "rivalry" has done nothing for the hobby besides divide our scene and hurt people's feelings.

Once when I was racing at ILR, I personally heard racers in the pits talking about how they "thought" that something malicious was done to the FPR track to make tires wear faster. Absolutely nothing was done to the track to make the tires wear quicker and that assertion was unfounded and untrue. Even though I worked at FPR, I raced at ILR to try and have a good time and promote unity and goodwill amongst our local Mini-Z scene. That, was a lost cause. Once I started working at Fast Pace, some of the racers never treated me the same again.

I'm not saying everyone is at odds with each other in our scene. A lot of the guys just raced at one place because they were familiar and comfortable with their racing arrangements & there was nothing friendly established between the shops. There were some pretty cool racers at both places. The point I'm trying to illustrate is that a couple of sour grapes make for some bitter wine.

DMALMAD
2012.11.19, 10:56 PM
I agree that rivalry and negativity towards each other is a bad thing, but there is also a need for pride in racing for your club and for what you support. I think a good way to do this would be the pn and atomic joint race. This way people can support and use the products they like the most while competing with others that promote another group of products, this will create the "rivalry" aspect but no one is going to dislike or begrudge some one for the parts they use.

arch2b
2012.11.19, 11:05 PM
i have no patience for sour grapes. i get precious few hours to enjoy my hobby, i don't need to waste them with petty squabbles which is why we avoid the rivalry angle and simply race with the other club(s) as comrades. life is to short to waste on that type of stuff and i have far to much to do already.

yasuji
2012.11.19, 11:21 PM
I agree that rivalry and negativity towards each other is a bad thing, but there is also a need for pride in racing for your club and for what you support. I think a good way to do this would be the pn and atomic joint race. This way people can support and use the products they like the most while competing with others that promote another group of products, this will create the "rivalry" aspect but no one is going to dislike or begrudge some one for the parts they use.

this already exists in the form of the TEKIN 1/28TH SCALE NATS..
past and current champions are from PN, atomic and reflex and non-sponsored locals:D
it is run in norcal at ilr... i do know that they have been trying to get a east coast venue as well... it is a great race and there are minimal limitations....and a fun time has been had by all..and is sponsored by PN, atomic and reflex and others as well:)

mugler
2012.11.20, 12:32 AM
First of all want to thank PN for organizing the ONLY world class mini-z event in the US and ILR at the same time, for making it happen. This type of event(s) gives a purpose to weekly club racers activities everywhere.

I guess there always will be the same 2 main pools for recruiting future mini-z racers & growing the Z-swarm.1. existing racers from other scales of RC & 2. general population never exposed to any type of RC before.

For group #1, it would be really nice if minimum of 20 or more mini-z racers planned to go to IIC 2013 in Vegas and held mini-z races in front of all other on-roaders. We already know 20 is what Scotty, IIC's organizer requires to add the class. All practice session are controlled so no issues there & when we ran 33 turn motors at TQ ( a socal 10th scale carpet tracK) lap times where equal to F1 cars with their 21.5 motors. If this was decided early enough we could talk it up on 10th scale boards and some new guys may decide they wanna join in too...either way instant massive exposure for mini-z!

For group #2, just wanna point out that local cable advertising is relatively affordable and super targeted geographically speaking. Production for an add can be below $1500 and they sell block of add as low as $500 per month with only a few months worth of commitment. each add run costs between $10 to $30 approximately depending on the shows you choose to have them played on and you can choose which shows! so racing shows on speed or car shows on Dicovery etc will probably take the message to exactly the right type of audience who lives down the street from a mini-z track.

unearthed name
2012.11.20, 04:21 AM
why not held a prize competition. store credit should be given. granted it won't be a clean racing, but it can bring more people.

the series in my local hobby shop has prizes both in store credits and in mini-z parts, even KO remotes given away to raffles.

it could be losing money, but it'll give us good publicity.

average attendance for the series are between 20-40. however this might work because no other series in indonesia offer this kind of prize.

just my 0.02 Rp.

arch2b
2012.11.20, 08:20 AM
the expectation that a shop will provide prizes, gift cards, etc. is ideal but unrealistic in my opinion, especially so within the u.s. it's very hard to convince a shop in the u.s. to give up floor space alone for track space. it has a lot to do with the stigma that mini-z is a toy and i think the unfortunate reputation kyosho has with retailers plays into it a lot. any of the shop owners that are left from the first half of this decade will know. now if the shop charged a fee for racing, i would have more expectations of them but in our case at least, racing is free and i'm very thankful for that. our hobby shop manager actually races with us as well which is cool. it's a trade off that has worked well for us. we supply all the kit, the shop provides the space. it doesn't always make my wife happy when i plunk down a sizable fortune for kit :rolleyes:

in general, i would say most organized racing takes place within a 'club' vs. a shop in the u.s. retail support for mini-z racing is really rare here. this is why manufacturers like PN, Atomic and Reflex are so valuable to the community. Kyosho USA took a baby step in opening a track of their own as well which shouldn't be overlooked.

the single greatest hurdle for singular organized series are always rules. after 12 years there remains little agreement on what a larger context set of rules should be. we as a community can't even agree on what 'stock' means for example. in a sense, we are are own biggest hindrance as well. love it or hate it, the kyosho mini-z cup was rather simple to understand. i don't particularly like manufacturer exclusivity rules but one cannot really make demands of a manufacturer willing to organize a series other than choose to participate or not.

imxlr8ed
2012.11.20, 09:35 AM
I've been trying to promote my little club for quite some time now. I honestly don't know what more I could do! I've been online with local RC nuts and have basically told them that if they make it a regular thing and really want to make an effort to race with us once a month, I would gladly give them one of my fully hooked 2.4 MR02s... and they still don't show! I know if I had an offer like that, I'd be at the track everytime they were open!

I don't know if it's just the people in my area or if there is just this general apathy everywhere. Maybe it's just easier for some to fire up an Xbox and race simulators online? I agree that online simulators are awesome but I would rather have a connection to real-world physics as opposed to a ton of formulas designed for game play.

Anyone else have possible members just drop off the face of the world for no real reason? I remember one guy from a while back that was so jazzed with our racing program that he bought every single thing he needed from the Hobbytown we were racing at back then, I mean the guy spent, easily over $500 within a 20 minute time span... and then he never showed up again? I've got all kinds of stories like this about no-shows, it gets to the point where I don't feel like even bothering with it sometimes.

I've handed out flyers, posted on all kinds of local bulletin boards, got links all over online... am I the only one who has the feeling that RCers are just a dying breed?

Hate to sound so negative, it really doesn't matter to me as long as I have my club to run with. The only way I could see myself getting out of Mini-Zs entirely would be if all of my club members just stopped showing up.

arch2b
2012.11.20, 01:33 PM
FOR US, attendance ebbs and flows. we started with 3-4 and there are still times were we end up with only 3 or 4. all you can do it keep the door open and hope they come in. i haven't done flyers or anything of the sort, just word of mouth and just about every mini-z forum you can think of. i'd do social media sites to but i avoid then in general so nothing on that front either.

i won't lie, there are plenty of days where i to wonder why i continue to drag myself and my stuff out and slog it on the highway but then i meet up with whomever shows up, enjoy a pizza lunch, get to chat about familiar things and some unfamiliar as well and always glad for it. i'd love to bring the kids with me but i really just can't handle keeping them occupied and run the show as well. they don't ask so i just let them be with their games, computer or hanging out with school friends for the day. hoping one of these days they can start coming along again.

twinkie
2012.11.20, 02:14 PM
First of all want to thank PN for organizing the ONLY world class mini-z event in the US and ILR at the same time, for making it happen. This type of event(s) gives a purpose to weekly club racers activities everywhere.

I guess there always will be the same 2 main pools for recruiting future mini-z racers & growing the Z-swarm.1. existing racers from other scales of RC & 2. general population never exposed to any type of RC before.

For group #1, it would be really nice if minimum of 20 or more mini-z racers planned to go to IIC 2013 in Vegas and held mini-z races in front of all other on-roaders. We already know 20 is what Scotty, IIC's organizer requires to add the class. All practice session are controlled so no issues there & when we ran 33 turn motors at TQ ( a socal 10th scale carpet tracK) lap times where equal to F1 cars with their 21.5 motors. If this was decided early enough we could talk it up on 10th scale boards and some new guys may decide they wanna join in too...either way instant massive exposure for mini-z!

For group #2, just wanna point out that local cable advertising is relatively affordable and super targeted geographically speaking. Production for an add can be below $1500 and they sell block of add as low as $500 per month with only a few months worth of commitment. each add run costs between $10 to $30 approximately depending on the shows you choose to have them played on and you can choose which shows! so racing shows on speed or car shows on Dicovery etc will probably take the message to exactly the right type of audience who lives down the street from a mini-z track.


you can run mini-z at TQ... thats awesome I was already planning on going down there to get some carpet 1/10 experience, because I would love to go to 2013 IIC Vegas. I guess I'll be bringing my mini as well as my 1/10 f1 and tc

twinkie
2012.11.20, 02:18 PM
on a side note... problem with running mini-z at 2013 IIC event... your first class entry is $175.00... don't think you will find many z'ers to pay that entry fee.

ARN
2012.11.20, 03:53 PM
it would be really nice if minimum of 20 or more mini-z racers planned to go to IIC 2013 in Vegas and held mini-z races in front of all other on-roaders. We already know 20 is what Scotty, IIC's organizer requires to add the class. All practice session are controlled so no issues there & when we ran 33 turn motors at TQ ( a socal 10th scale carpet tracK) lap times where equal to F1 cars with their 21.5 motors. If this was decided early enough we could talk it up on 10th scale boards and some new guys may decide they wanna join in too...either way instant massive exposure for mini-z!.

This needs it's own thread. I'm raising my hand to count me in....(pending the date scheduled, I need to know asap) I think a Pan car class would be good for this track....
PM me if you find out more....

soimthatguy
2012.11.20, 10:00 PM
Most pointless thread ever. Race with your heart, not with your wallet.

mugler
2012.11.20, 10:17 PM
you can run mini-z at TQ... thats awesome I was already planning on going down there to get some carpet 1/10 experience, because I would love to go to 2013 IIC Vegas. I guess I'll be bringing my mini as well as my 1/10 f1 and tc

@ TQ for racing mini-Z's on a race day we will need to swarm up to at least 5 mini-z's (which shouldn't be too hard) and talk to Sean the owner in advance, who will add the mini-z class to the itinerary of that day...he is a very cool guy.


on a side note... problem with running mini-z at 2013 IIC event... your first class entry is $175.00... don't think you will find many z'ers to pay that entry fee.

PNWC 2012 had about 67 racers attending I think, so maybe 20 is not completely out of reach specially if some of outside US racers consider it which they might since it will be such a unique mini-z experience in mostly good ways and also if traditional mini-z related names throw their back into sponsoring and promoting it in some way.

This needs it's own thread. I'm raising my hand to count me in....(pending the date scheduled, I need to know asap) I think a Pan car class would be good for this track....
PM me if you find out more....

I'm not in a position to organize promotions but wanted to bring forth the idea since we were talking about how to expose & promote mini-z racing in general, however will look into it further to find out more in coming weeks. BTW IIC is always on first week of October. My hand is raised also for attending if this was too happen:D

herman
2012.11.20, 10:43 PM
wow.... pretty interesting read... and i haven't finished a half of my popcorn... :D

lots of interesting points, opinions, and views... well, for me, this whole mini-z thing is just a hobby... :D

ever since my brother surprised me and gave me one (the blue nissan skyline gt-r kpgc 10) it has been an insane roller coaster hobby that's been on my mind buggin me, pestering my wallet, not to mention thinning out my money tree... for the past 11 years... :D

it was just pure luck that i stumbled on and registered onto this site (mini-zracer.com) just days after it was set up... and, i got to know that... there was consolation... i wasn't alone in this... er incredibly insane hobby... there were some equally insane, some exceptionally insane and some out of this world insane (you know who you are)... :D

over time, my hobby never failed to make me wonder... during travels to shanghai, beijing, jakarta, bangkok, sydney, melborne, auckland, singapore, kuala lumpur, taipei, seoul... is there a mini-z track / hobby shop around? and if there were, it was always memorable, and i always made sure to share my exploits with the other mini-zaniacs er i mean members of the forums... notable adventures for me include...
(click country to read my related exploits) hong kong (http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=316912#post316912), japan (http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=316928&posted=1#post316928), and just recently the u.s.a. (http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38452) …

it also gives me some joy that others appreciate the stuff i write about by giving me feedback on the articles...

…... poof (sorry was daydreaming a bit)....

over here (in the philippines), i presently believe that there are no mini-z tracks that are set up commercially following a business model (of any sort) in the hope of making money... there were a couple over the years, and unfortunately they didn't last... additionally there are no shops over here that sell any mini-z's or parts as well...

so locally, no track, no parts, no support... but in spite of this... call me nuts, or more aptly insane... i still really like the mini-z stuff that kyosho puts out year after year... and why you may ask?

for me it's my hobby... something that i find enjoyment in engaging in... something that makes me happy...

i find my support from the members on this forum, which make my hobby more colorful... i find parts online and in some hobby shops abroad... and the track... oh well 2 out of three ain't bad... as a side note, i do find myself on occasion running some of my cars on a textured badminton court...

once upon a time... a long long time ago (think mr01 with the steering shakes syndrome)... in a far far away place, (it took me 45 min to an hour thirty to get there depending on traffic) there was a track... and it was fun... and when there were races... it was really fun...

it was quite simple then... initially there were no trophies, just bragging rights... the track owner would award the winners with free track time... then after a while there were trophies, and again the winners were awarded with free track time... it was all fun...

although i never won a race, on some occasions if i still remember it right, i made it to 2nd and 3rd … i never expected the track owners to give me a prize in the form of parts or money because of how well i drove during the race... i did it because it was just a hobby and i enjoyed every minute of it... :D

although as a track owner / race organizer... i do think it is a good idea to give prizes to winners, there's a caveat... once you start doing it, racers might expect the same thing in the next race, and the next... then it'll be damned if you do and damned if you don't...

i guess there are other factors for the track owner / race organizer to consider as well... i.e. the economy (i see this as the biggest factor) if its doing good, then i guess it's up to the track owner / race organizer to give out what they can as prizes... if it's bad, i guess you really can't expect the track owner / race organizers to shell out the same prizes given out in the prior races... bad economy remember?

another thing is race participation... are the expected number of participants enough to warrant or justify giving out these prizes?

usually for big races – i.e. a world cup type of race... i believe prizes for winners are usually announced beforehand...

so what is your reason for joining the race? again different people will have different reasons... will you join because it's a big race (world cup)? or will you join because of the prizes? will you join because of the fun you'll have regardless of how much you'll be spending to get to the venue and compete? will you join because of the experience it will give you? or perhaps it isn't worth joining after all because they are not giving the same stuff they did the other year... or not giving out any stuff at all?

i guess that the track owner / race organizers have to take this all into consideration, and i believe that they have... it really isn't easy organizing a race... and i know you really can't please everybody... i'd be thankful that there is even a race, track, event to go to... :D

some people have their own reasons for having their hobbies... but for me, i guess it all boils down to....
engage and enjoy it if it makes you happy.... otherwise, why do something that doesn't make you happy? it doesn't make sense... and i guess that's why people move on to other things.... this is true not only for mini-z... but for any other hobby or interests that one might have... why stick with it if it doesn't make you happy? we all have our reasons why we have our hobbies... for me... it's primarily to have fun... :D

sports was mentioned somewhere in the thread... if your hobby is a sport (i.e. golf, tennis etc.) and if you are really good, you may have some luck deriving financial gains in terms of sponsorship (i've read that nike picked up rory mcilroy for some 250million odd bananas over 10 years... man that's a lot of bananas)... :D

as far as r/c is concerned, some other scales do offer some sort of sponsorship, and i believe manufacturers sign up top drivers... they can do this because of the big budgets, and marketing strategies that was fueled by the popularity and participation of racers in the hobby...

to some extent, i believe that this has trickled down to the mini-z scale... the degree of sponsorship will depend on certain factors.. economy again being one, popularity and participation in the scale... etc...

presently (with the current economic global situation) i don't see or expect the mini-z scene to get as big as the bigger scales... this however may vary and be different for other countries experiencing some economic growth... countries enjoying economic growth offers some people with a higher level of disposable income... which allows them to enjoy other things... like hobbies...

i can't really single out any country at the moment, but i do know that mini-z is still big in japan (i believe that the kyosho has a list and link to shops and tracks on their website) and hong kong (kyosho hong kong opened selling exclusively selling kyosho stuff and had a dnano track... unfortuanately though they closed probably due to the competitive prices and the sheer number of hobby shops in the area)... i haven't been to either country recently to personally get the feel of how healthy mini-z is doing, so i really can't say this for sure... anybody want to sponsor me? :D

generally, i believe the key ingredients in keeping this hobby alive is to have a track... a shop / support group... and generally a growing interest... (although this is not be entirely true, since i believe i'm an exception to this, and have proved this wrong lol – case in point : me - locally there no tracks, no shops, not much interest and yet i am still here writing a novel about it?!?! - i must be totally insane!!!! - guys check me in now... well i guess that's why i started off with... generally)

in my pretty recent travel to the us, i was able to meet up with blt456 aka luke at ilr, unfortunately though i got there a little bit late and ilr was closed, it was really great meeting and talking to him... i also was fortunate to go visit kenon and meet grant yasuji matsushima who introduced me to raiderdave... and eventually to the man behind pn racing... philip ng (super great guys running super great facility) you could say that I was kenonized... i was simply blown away... it was great talking to them and a grand experience overall...

and even before meeting the guys mentioned above... i got to meet you tjay (the thread starter) waay back... when you visited the philippines... it was really nice to meet you... you were actually the first person i got to meet from this forum...

all of this is what keeps me in this hobby... :D

the end?

JoeyE
2012.11.20, 11:50 PM
This whole thread is funny. Bunch of grown men/women fighting over little toy cars.

color01
2012.11.21, 12:38 AM
I think you'd cry if you went over to RCTech then lol... sometimes there are up to 10x the grown men fighting 10x harder over cars that are just 3x larger. :rolleyes:

imxlr8ed
2012.11.21, 01:02 AM
This whole thread is funny. Bunch of grown men/women fighting over little toy cars.

We call it "spirited discussion" here. ;)

Over on RCTech, you get guys giving out addresses saying things like "here's where I live... so come and try to kick my a$$!". Those are popcorn threads for sure. I'd liken some of those threads to a bad episode of Jerry Springer... wait, they're all bad episodes. :rolleyes:

arch2b
2012.11.21, 07:36 AM
i actually like this sort of round table discussion. look at all the various ideas and notions about what mini-z is or ought to be... very interesting stuff.

i wouldn't characterize this arguing or fighting at all. there is a general lack of posturing, pea****ing, personal insults, etc. this is more like watching bill marher with a vary diverse panel. :p granted the negative stuff was brief and quickly moved on but by and large the rest is thoughtful and provokes responses either way. that is really what a good discussion does anyway.

ARN
2012.11.21, 11:12 AM
This whole thread is funny. Bunch of grown men/women fighting over little toy cars.

sensitive little bugger arn't you....this was fighting ??...
The only thing I recall was someone personally attacking a friend..... nothing to do with my toy car whatsoever....

ARN
2012.11.21, 11:21 AM
i must be totally insane!!!! - guys check me in now...

Chad Nelson called it a sickness.... so you're not insane, you're just sick... and many of us obviously have the same condition.....:cool:

twinkie
2012.11.21, 07:44 PM
I think you'd cry if you went over to RCTech then lol... sometimes there are up to 10x the grown men fighting 10x harder over cars that are just 3x larger. :rolleyes:

JoeyE is there too Brian, but Joey truly races for fun. I run 1/10th scale with him. He use to run mini-z but I think he ran out of time. One of the nicest guys I know. If there is anyone that comes to mind first when I think of running without any care about winning, its Joey. He's really out there to relax and have fun.

ucdinh
2012.11.22, 02:26 AM
JoeyE is there too Brian, but Joey truly races for fun. I run 1/10th scale with him. He use to run mini-z but I think he ran out of time. One of the nicest guys I know. If there is anyone that comes to mind first when I think of running without any care about winning, its Joey. He's really out there to relax and have fun.

I agree... I like how there was more response to Joey's 2 liner then my whole half page rant.

changw414
2012.11.23, 09:27 PM
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/30704112.jpg

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D