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View Full Version : The good from the ugly... my F1 setup.


imxlr8ed
2012.11.21, 02:05 AM
I think I've finally figured out my F1s!
I've spent years with these cars but kinda always followed the herd when it came to what to get, what these cars need, which parts are must haves... you know, all good advice but I could never seem to get these things to turn the laps with the same feel as my regular race cars had. So, with a lack of funds to buy the latest and greatest, I started playing around once again and here's what I ended up with:

Here's my Honda, and yes the Mantis front wing is a must-have in my book:
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=1476

Here it is with the lid off, notice the typical direct wire scenario to the board. I never used to do this to all my cars, but with the 2.4 there is really no need to have to shut it down right after a race to avoid runaways like with the AM cars:
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=1477

On the underside, I'm running Kyosho side plates to a PN mount, 64 pitch diff, stainless kingpins, K30 fronts and half-worn PN6 rears, front gear is all zero degree:
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=1479

Now here's where it gets cheap and disgusting. I used to run a top shock and yellow side springs on this car but I tossed them because they never seemed to really help me out. The metal bar that comes off the back of where the board mounts is gone too. I replace all of mine with a section of motor wire cut to the proper length. I also pop a screw into the shock mount with a washer on it in the hopes that it will help keep the rear from going totally whacked out if I get in a collision:
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=1480

Notice the custom trimmed memory foam earplug end superglued directly to the motor. Now I've ran foam in this location before but I've never relied on it to be my do-all suspension centerpiece. I've also realized that gluestick is not good to use for this application because the motor does get hot. I've had this glued on for quite some time now and it shows no sign of loosening it's bond:
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=1478

I've tried different lengths of trimmed earplugs but this is where this car ended up. It seems to act like a disk-dampener and a main shock all at once... I just know it works for some dumb reason:
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=1481

The car handles excellent now, best I've ever had! I've had this mess of a setup on this car for a while now and as the tires came in it just got better and better. Oh, another little fix I do to these cars is once I get the steering servo into the chassis I usually try to keep everything from twisting around by using some strategically placed gluestick where I can get it. I also add a miniscule drop of superglue to the potentiometer so it bonds to the plastic horseshoe that holds it.

My case in point for this hack of a setup is this car right here:
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=1482

This car I bought from one of my racers and it was loaded to the hilt with all kinds of stuff, had a disk dampener setup and the Atomic mount (which held the motor at an odd and too-low position in my book. I tried to keep the hops it had for a while, tried to work with them and did get the car handling decent... but it just felt like a typical F1 out on the track:
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=1483

So... got to work making a similar kind of setup for it, this car is running some old-school Team Kyosho 23s up front and 20K rears. It's also got a +1 toe bar and zero knuckles up front. Oh and it also has a custom metal front bumper setup with delrin ends on the front (courtesy of one of my racers). This car now handles exactly the same as my Jordan. I didn't expect it to perform as well or even close to what I got before but there is really no handling difference between the two whatsoever! Note that this car needed a little more earplug foam:
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=1484

I did drill out the Atomic mount to get the motor to lay flat so I could do the foam setup near the same as what I had on the Jordan:
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=1485

So, it's a cheap setup and why does it work? Well... I have theories. I think the rear gets freed up to the point that there really is no chance of the dreaded F1 tire-spin. I think where the foam is located helps with the weight transfer and keeps the car planted really well. I do still back out the aft screws on the kyosho plates just a bit (anyhwere from 1 to 2 turns off of full-tight) cause it seems to help. I am also running alloy wheels on both cars... call me crazy but having a bit more weight out there at the corners seems to help the car stay planted as well. I also think the ridges inside the rims (where the inside of the tires meet the rim) help prevent tire squirm, but I know that can be solved with tire tape too.

I'm guessing that a setup like this could be done on the newer F1s too, but I'm not sure how those bodies are shaped back there.

I'm not saying this setup is a guarantee of a better handling F1, it's ugly, it's floppy and somewhat sloppy... but it's really working for me so I figured I'd share it!

NoBrainer
2012.11.21, 02:15 AM
hihi Love it
Nice to see some home made setups.

imxlr8ed
2012.11.21, 02:23 AM
hihi Love it
Nice to see some home made setups.

This is in response to your thread... kinda. I didn't want to post this all over your thread but I was thinking this is the only way I could really explain all the little things I've done to my F1s. Kinda jazzed that they work like that.

Guess I should add too that I did have a stock plastic mount on the Ferrari with the earplug setup first, until a hard hit destroyed my last plastic mount. It ran just as good with the stock mount too, but with the metal mount it does seem a hair more planted.

NoBrainer
2012.11.21, 02:26 AM
It's great to see something else than $800 configuration...
But I kind off love bling-bling....

At least then I can have several different approaches to this.

Thanks imxlr8ed!

imxlr8ed
2012.11.21, 02:31 AM
One of my racers is bling central... he has defeated me in F1 but I'm pretty sure that's due to him being a better driver. Our cars are total opposites but I'm usually only down a lap or so from him.

I'll update this Sunday when I finally knock him off his podium. ;)

NoBrainer
2012.11.21, 02:39 AM
I'll update this Sunday when I finally knock him off his podium. ;)

hihi Would be nice to have a report yes.

ARN
2012.11.21, 10:36 AM
great write up.

where do I find a mantis bumper?

and do the ear plugs need ear wax, or will unused plugs work?:D

(I've gotta try the ear plug thing!)

imxlr8ed
2012.11.21, 12:07 PM
Haven't tried it with all natural dampener grease. I haven't really had the need to fine tune it to that level yet.

The bumpers seem to be extinct hence the home-built on the Ferrari. I am trying to work on a solution to that.

Also, I'd like to add that on the Ferrari there was a lot of strategic dremeling to get rid of any interferences with the rear end. For instance, I've thinned it out where the motor wires go over to the board. The body was already cut up so it didn't break my heart to do it. Also ground out the bottom aft corners where the motor mount connects to the plates, it was really hitting there.

I've also dome some ventilation to the battery cover and chamfered any forward edges of plastic on the belly that may catch on things.

Another benefit to the Mantis bumper is that it creates a bit more room to allow the front end to move down further without bottoming out.

lfisminiz
2012.11.21, 06:52 PM
One of my racers is bling central... he has defeated me in F1 but I'm pretty sure that's due to him being a better driver. Our cars are total opposites but I'm usually only down a lap or so from him.

I'll update this Sunday when I finally knock him off his podium. ;)

I guess ill need to put a GOOD 70T in and my BETTER batteries Sunday.;):D
Dont forget...the F-1 with the tri-shock is homemade set-up...;):rolleyes:

herman
2012.11.22, 01:11 AM
thanks for sharing.... it's simple and it works... :D

imxlr8ed
2012.11.22, 09:36 AM
You should post some pics then too Larry, since we're all on a reborn F1 kick here. I want to get pics of Quinn's too, just wish I would've taken them before I rebuilt his car! His entire front end was hanging on by a tiny piece of plastic!

lfisminiz
2012.11.22, 05:06 PM
You should post some pics then too Larry, since we're all on a reborn F1 kick here. I want to get pics of Quinn's too, just wish I would've taken them before I rebuilt his car! His entire front end was hanging on by a tiny piece of plastic!

I will Ed. I was thinking the same.;)

ARN
2012.11.26, 11:26 AM
have you tried a 50T PN motor with this setup yet? my set-up with the 70T is perfect, but I have the dreaded spinout in both directions with the 50T. I was thinking of getting a motor pod so I could try a 10 pinion and see if that would dull the rear power enough to stop the spins, but I dont feel like spending another $50 just to be able to run a 10 pinion on theory....

I havent had any time to try this foam mod, but hopefully next week I can give it a try...

imxlr8ed
2012.11.26, 11:52 AM
I had a custom X-speed in a Chili can for one of the races a while back and it (the Honda) was still planted, no spin-out whatsoever. The PN tires were a bit newer then but I also ran it with some K20s that day too and it didn't do it then either.

If you're spinning on throttle, there'd be a few things I would go to first:

1. Diff tension. I tune the tension so there is just enough to get the car moving along with a tiny touch of slip in the diff.

2. Diff condition. Has it been cleaned out lately? I was never a fan of re-building/cleaning diffs but now it's just something I do after ever day of racing and it does help.

3. Side plates. I'm a fan of backing out the middle screws anywhere from 1 to 3 turns out from tight. And also alternating from one side to the other.

4. Bind-ups. I'd check that the rear is getting a full range of motion without smashing motor wires or hanging up on the body anywhere. I'm always surprised how this just always seems to come up. I had that Ferrari for a while now and was amazed how I never noticed the interference between the bottom edge of the body and the forward corners of the motor mount!

5. Front-end bind up. Make sure your front suspension is articulating smoothly and evenly side to side. Stainless kingpins are your best first step towards this but I have polished stock pins and acheived the same effect.

6. Gearing. With a mod motor especially, the taller gear will take the edge off but may make your car reach out-of control speeds at the end of a 25' straightaway. For a stock 48 pitch, the 9 tooth was always my default for any motor. I have switched to a 10 tooth for something like a Speedy07.

7. Tires. This could be one of the first things to check, but finding the right tires for a particular car is a bit of a crap-shoot. Both of my F1s have a completely different tire combo, but they both run the same.

8. Radio. End-points dialed right? Throttle curve nice and smooth? I'm back on my steering curves for both of my F1s, somewhere around a -30 curve on them. I always adjust my end-points to what is required for the tightest turn on the track... more throw than you need is just pointless. My current turning radius on my RCP from the wall is out to around a tile and a half.

Hope this helps!

ARN
2012.11.26, 12:50 PM
Those are all great points that everyone should be aware of, and I'm glad you posted them. Also note I have the MP4-25 body and you would not believe what I found when I removed the section that holds the rear wing. needless to say, all binding of the kyosho damper was fixed on day one with that body and now I run a rear wing on the motor pod. (I never understood why kyosho would design that body to put downforce on the rear suspension)...

btw, if I put on kyosho rear grooved tires the grooves are gone within one run... and then it really gets squirrelly once the grooves are gone...

anyway, I guess I will need to play with my radio setting a bit more and try a PN mount with a 10 pinion to see if I can get the spins cured.

plus a ear plug retro fit is in order too!

imxlr8ed
2012.11.26, 01:11 PM
Grooves are great when they are there but you shouldn't do a setup based on that all too soon disappearing traction level. I always tune with worn rears.

I prefer worn fronts to take the edge off of the steering inputs as well. My F1s are all pushers. The Team Kyoshos I have on the Ferrari are pretty thin and the traction is consistent over the whole surface of the tire. The 30s are fairly new on the Honda and there is still an edge on the corners. The 30s did feel a bit tougher than my usual K30s but they work on that car. Like I said previously... it's a crapshoot almost everytime for me with tires but I've got a box to dig through of all kinds of oddball tires collected throughout the years.

Also... you may want to massage some WD40 on the rears to get them cleaned off and soften them a bit. Just make sure you wipe them off within a few minutes! You'll certainly see how much dirt you'll get off of them with a white paper towel. When necessary, I just get the tip of a finger wet with the stuff and just rub it onto the tires evenly, then wipe it off after say 30 seconds.

I kinda get where they were trying to go with the new bodies. The downforce is on the chassis as opposed to acting like a lever when mounting behind the rear tires (if you went real scale with this geometry and drove the motor-mount wing setup behind a solid axle, the downforce would essentially bend the car up in the middle). Real problem is, the rear wings on the newer F1s are usually the first part lying on the track after a few laps with others. I prefer the older style bodies and wings too!

mugler
2012.11.26, 04:09 PM
First of all wanted to say F1 cars are a blast to drive and look the best on the track when they do! 10th scale guys discovered this a few years ago and since then F1 10th scale has ballooned to unexpected numbers in many different locations ...hoping to see the same trend at all mini-z tracks across U.S. and BTW F1 class was run as an exhibition class at PNWC this year!

Regarding tires at recommendation of couple of fellow racers at Kenon we discovered that the newer Kyosho slick tires are the best all around solution. They last longer and are more consistent than any other combination of tires we've tested and the overall performance is very good. it's always 20 rears and 30s or 40 fronts depending on individual car setup and driving style and having all on this narrow selection of tires has made racing closer and therefore more interesting...this is specially true on RCP as well as on carpet where silicone tires have not been used.

The only problem ( and it's a big one) as mentioned with new bodies is the easy to break rear wing and once it's completely broken there's not a good way of gluing it together however CA insta-set is one of yoor best friend's here. in the meantime taking off the wing mount for older wings from motor is NOT an option as it acts as a bumper for the newer wings. I'm hoping big K sees the new design is not working and either comes up with a better solution or goes back to the old style wings for future body releases. Other than this the newer bodies to me look better than the old ones and also seem to make the cars easier to drive.

imxlr8ed
2012.11.27, 02:04 AM
Well, as promised I'd put up some numbers.

Fully hooked F1: 7.43 and a 7.28 best laps
My semi hooked: 7.34 and a 7.38 best laps

I know my car is fully hooked in respect to a stock car, but as far as rear suspensions goes, not too shabby for no side springs, disc dampener or top shock... just the earplug.

Larry drives his butt off too so I'll give it to him for consistency, he gave a good run and took the wins most of the time. I was too busy picking through traffic the dirty way. :rolleyes:

Great racing, no breakages and lots of fun! We now have 6 F1s up and running and we're working on more!

Still waiting for Larry's tell-all setup thread so you can all see what we're up against each week!

arch2b
2012.11.27, 06:41 AM
getting me inspired to dig my F1 back out ed! until at least i recall the bigger problem being the sporadic glitching of 2.4 boards. i set mine on the shelf long ago because i simply could not keep it going around the track without power glitching, on a brand new 2.4 SP chassis.

would a custom cut of memory foam suffice vs. ear plugs? FYI, you can email the manuf. and get a material sample which is the size of a magic eraser from them for free. i got one ages ago and simply never did anything with it since my F1 only collects dust. i can't bare to part with it though,. i know i'm a sucker and will take it back out at some point.

imxlr8ed
2012.11.27, 10:06 AM
I've had different types of foam between the pod and the chassis a long time ago, it was a bunch softer though. Never tried anything other than an earplug in this configuration but you never know... this is the only thing I've tried back there. It's just that the shape of it fits so nicely into the raised area inside the body, and the fact that they have dispenser stations all over the place where I work (I'm sure the latter had more to do with the choice! :D)

Glitch?... really? :confused: Do you have the board direct wired like mine? I do that to all of my cars now. I can recall one of my members having a glitch and a slow car a while back and when I direct wired it it got rid of it and brought the car right up to speed! Are you still running the power switch too?

lfisminiz
2012.11.27, 03:25 PM
Well, as promised I'd put up some numbers.

Fully hooked F1: 7.43 and a 7.28 best laps
My semi hooked: 7.34 and a 7.38 best laps

I know my car is fully hooked in respect to a stock car, but as far as rear suspensions goes, not too shabby for no side springs, disc dampener or top shock... just the earplug.

Larry drives his butt off too so I'll give it to him for consistency, he gave a good run and took the wins most of the time. I was too busy picking through traffic the dirty way. :rolleyes:

Great racing, no breakages and lots of fun! We now have 6 F1s up and running and we're working on more!

Still waiting for Larry's tell-all setup thread so you can all see what we're up against each week!

I will try to get pics up on this thread sometime. Just got to get some time.;)