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imxlr8ed
2014.02.23, 10:12 PM
Well, so far the only radio I know that works with the new Sport MR03 is the KT19 but I have been getting a lot of questions lately from interested parties as to what other radios the FHS may be compatible with... any ideas?

I'm really wondering why they just didn't go FHSS. When I search on FHS I find a ton of FHSS radios. I was even hopeful that the Futaba 3PL was compatible but even those are FHSS, not FHS. Did Kyosho incorporate a defunct protocol for dirt cheap, was that the motivation?

Once again, any help would be appreciated!

TheSteve
2014.02.23, 11:39 PM
It is easy for them to come up with a unique protocol, I wouldn't expect any other radio to be compatible.

imxlr8ed
2014.02.24, 08:45 AM
I really hope that's not the case. If Kyosho is planning to kill off the ASF cars I think it would be a sad ending to the story of the Mini-Z.

Hopefully someone figures something out. My club is finding it hard to guide new members as to which is the best direction to start. I'm trying to get some kind of handout together which will give a list of routes to go.

TheRinger
2014.02.26, 02:40 AM
Heard a rumor that dsm2 spectrum might work. I feel that unfortunately Ed this is the beginning of the end for mini z. But I also feel that this will the beginning of the 1/28 scale era. Since it seems that everyone is coming out with their own chassis lately, I think that radio equipment will eventually come down to user preference. I hope and pray that ASF doesn't disappear for good. I love my JR Z-1 and don't want to use KT-19 or 18. Don't want to use any other radio either. But the times are a changing and we "mini z racers" are just a small spec in the "wild and wonderful world of RC". You can't beat greed.

imxlr8ed
2014.02.26, 09:41 AM
The Z survived with most of us because of it's superiority to all of the other models... now they are going to downgrade to a "sport" model. Just doesn't make sense to kill off the ASF. If they do kill it off and I can't find a module in 2 or 3 years... I'll never buy a Kyosho product again. Wonder how that would go over with all of their racers back on their home turf?

I'll go race SC10s on the other side of the shop! :rolleyes:

DanDan
2014.02.26, 11:05 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about what Kyosho does. PN Racing now has a DSMR board for Spektrum. Before this was available, I've converted a number of cars to DSM for racers using Team Losi integrated esc/receivers. If you wish to use other radios most brands have micro receivers now which can be used with a number of micro brushed ESCs (Tekin has one that's amazingly lightweight)

It is not overly difficult to convert the servo to three wire configuration. To do this you will need a circuit board from a "normal" servo. Basically solder the potentiometer wires and the motor wires to this board and change the order of the potentiometer wires until proper operation is achieved.

My point with this post is to hopefully demonstrate that even if we get put into a situation by the supplier that some are not fond of, that we can do something about it. Mini-Z will not die as long as there are enthusiasts still keeping the genre alive

arch2b
2014.02.26, 12:22 PM
there is no word or direction officially that they intend to kill off ASF. i've sent feelers to Kyosho USA that have not generated any response but i've not seen this yet appear on the usual blog sites. if there is any news of this please post links.

ChiMiniRc
2014.02.26, 04:18 PM
To my understanding ASF will remain alive. The Mr-03 chassis set/brushless and continue to live in the F1 and AWD platform.

The ex5-ur will continue to be made available. I'd say the continued import of the high end mini-z only transmitter is a good sign.

Traveler
2014.02.26, 04:27 PM
there is no word or direction officially that they intend to kill off ASF.

I suspect not :( and certainly hope not :eek:, but I sure would like to know what Kyosho's intentions are with respect to ASF :confused: It would definitely influence my buying decisions. I just don't know if I'd go prepper and buy up all ASF boards and chassis and modules I could find :cool: or sell all my ASF components before they become obsolete :rolleyes:

In my mind, Kyosho replacing ASF with HFS would be like Coke replacing Coca-Cola with New Coke, so I can't imagine it happening, but New Coke did happen, so I guess anything is possible. Would just like to know to plan accordingly!

imxlr8ed
2014.02.26, 04:59 PM
No direct link to Kyosho plans, but I did shake a Magic 8 Ball and it came up "all signs point to yes".

Hopefully someone from Kyosho gets on here and tells everybody what a jerk I am for inflating the terror alert from Yellow to Orange (for no apparent reason, something I've learned in the past that gets attention).

Still doesn't answer the FHS radio compatibility issue.

Bill, thanks. I may get someone to try to bind their DSM to an FHS the next raceday... I'll post what happens.

TheSteve
2014.02.26, 05:09 PM
Binding DSM to the Kyosho system is never going to happen. Kyosho switched to a cheaper system, no way they want to pay royalties to someone else.

mleemor60
2014.02.26, 06:01 PM
Has anybody tried to bind one of the FHS(s) radios that are out there just to see if it works?

Just for $h1ts and giggles do a Wikipedia search on DSM radio systems. It makes for some somewhat heavy but interesting reading. Especially when it comes to the number of different "types" or proto-calls that are out there and which radio works (or might) with what.

It didn't take long for someone to figure out how to make the ASF module work with the Futaba 3PK. I don't remember who it was but they might still be lurking.

TheSteve
2014.02.26, 06:08 PM
Has anybody tried to bind one of the FHS(s) radios that are out there just to see if it works?

Just for $h1ts and giggles do a Wikipedia search on DSM radio systems. It makes for some somewhat heavy but interesting reading. Especially when it comes to the number of different "types" or proto-calls that are out there and which radio works (or might) with what.

It didn't take long for someone to figure out how to make the ASF module work with the Futaba 3PK. I don't remember who it was but they might still be lurking.

Using an ASF module with the 3PK is a completely different animal compared to cross binding 2.4ghz systems. The modules worked because the older radios have industry standard(mostly anyway) PPM(Pulse Position Modulation). PPM is an analog form of transmitting servo position, very few new radios still use it as most are completely digital. The Futaba 4PK series happens to still have it because they still support DSC(Direct Servo Connect)

2.4ghz makes it way too easy to make systems that are not compatible. A company could develop a protocol and then sell it to 255 different companies with the smallest of changes made to each version and none would be compatible.

mleemor60
2014.02.26, 06:43 PM
A member has already sorted out a way to by pass the receiver on the new Atomic AWD car so that another type could be used. PN had someone figure out a 2.4DSM2 proto-call to replace the existing boards. Not sure why they went for DSM2 instead of the older system so that all it took was a module to keep a radio that everyone is familiar with. I suppose there is more profit in radios than modules especially if you can con the mob into drinking the Kool-Aid. Everything is a step forward. Even if it is on an oblique. It would just be nice to have something, a press release, anything to let us know the direction that Kyosho is headed.

As a "lefty" I for one will not be going to a different radio to stay in the game. I'm already on my last legs(age wise) so I will just keep pedaling the best I can with what I have as long as it lasts.

imxlr8ed
2014.02.26, 10:21 PM
Guess that's my biggest beef with the new Sport models... Kyosho hasn't released an FHS module, or even an FHS compatible EX5 type radio.

C'mon Kyosho... Tell us your going to sell an FHS module that fits into my Helios! And please don't make a KIY FHS module... kinda defeats the whole Mini-Z on a budget theme.

mleemor60
2014.02.27, 06:58 AM
Ed. You are close enough to the manufacturing process to hazard a S.W.A.G as to what the margins might be between the cost of materials including labor for producing a working module for existing mainstream radios as opposed to creating a new low to mid line radio to replace the module all together. I would bet that the projected costs are closer than the expected profit margins. You know how it goes. Must keep the World hooked on bootleg sub-Asian Jordan's. Pretty soon we will be making everything again. Sublet from the third World that took a contract from an emerging economy that we gave aid to and then ordered the product in the first place.

imxlr8ed
2014.02.27, 08:54 AM
I could easily make a box for the module but when it comes to electronics, software and protocols... it's all still a dark art to me. Maybe if I would have stayed with the computer programming course at the Olivets boys club back in 1984 as opposed to the slot car racing program they had (in the same room)... it all might be a different story!

Phil has the right idea with his own board, not sure if they make a module for the Helios compatible with his system though.

mleemor60
2014.02.27, 09:48 AM
DSM2 is not module based which takes us back to the higher profit reference. Why pay $72(ie) for a part you can sell for $90(ie) when you can buy a radio for $150(ie) and sell for $450(ie).

It seems to me that now that we have a couple of viable production units both in RTR and kit form that could possibly be the basis for true modified classes as well as attract the larger scale racer's that think we play with toys to join the crowd with the radio that they already have countless hours with by adding a module are stymied by the fact that a whole new system might be necessary.

Then to add to the dilemma of maintaining what we have is the fact that the "pure" competition aspects of the hobby are being downplayed and undermined by the "speed freak, terminal velocity, vanishing point" crowd that wants to turn an 8 second lap for a 44 lap total in 8 minutes instead of turning consistent 10 second laps for a total of 48. It can scare the bejesus out of potential prospects that get told "you have to have" this overpriced, questionable quality, left handed doodad for a nanny goats backside in order to punch that little cartoon outline of a car sized hole in the sheetrock at the end of the straight. Why not bring them in with basic help and guidance like we used to? Let them progress at their own pace until they decide to (as I keep referring to) drink the Kool-Aid or remain at the level "THEY" want instead of bowing to the pressures applied by the so called "factory team" addicts whose job it is to force the addiction to higher levels for the benefit of the "pushers".

We have an awful lot of fun with the "box stock" variables where the same guy wins but everybody is on the same lap at the end. That builds confidence and makes you want to come back for more. It's rough when you spend what it takes to get in the door even for the basic 70T class only to finish 10 or more laps down plus get yelled at for being in the way and then told you must marshal for the "heroes" that have to work on their cars so that they can yell at you for being in the way again. This part is painted with some pretty broad strokes to illustrate the point that that scale isn't so much dying as it is being killed from the top down.

Just my opinion so "nuff said"

imxlr8ed
2014.02.27, 10:52 AM
I see what you're saying, something I've heard from people watching our races... another "investment" to make. I try to keep it to one tacklebox and some Duracell chargers as not to intimidate. I think once we actually get racing as opposed to just tuning days, we'll get more racers. The meet and greet is nice but it's not getting past a few minutes of test laps with some.

Whole reason for this thread is so I can be able to list options for whatever chassis a newbie would choose... the FHS is where I was drawing a blank.

EMU
2014.02.27, 11:22 AM
FHS is something that leaves me wondering as well. I don't know if it is a step forward or backward for Kyosho. They want to be the sole provider of fun at this scale. Aftermarket parts/competition take the fun out of it for them. FHS could be their way of saying if you want to play on our court, you have to use our ball.

Which may work for the casual racer who the KT style radio is ok for. But a competition oriented racer will look at it and laugh. Much like a DSM2 upgrade will be out of reach for many midfield racers who don't have the ability to justify the resources. It would have been nice if the DSM2 radio was an inexpensive alternative... to have the DSM2 upgrade as a path to take to switch from FHS, but the person who buys the FHS car in the first place is already looking at cost, since they didn't consider ASF.

Having never seen an FHS car in action, I cannot comment on the performance aspect of the electronics, but if the radio is like the KT-18, it will leave much to be desired by the more competitive racer. Anyone new into the hobby/scale will need guidance as to the direction they can go to improve their performance package. Not having advanced options on the radio, and not having optional radios means that they will have to spend twice if not more to compete at the top level.

Mini-Z used to be competitive with a $60 radio, you didn't need more, but now you are looking at a +$300 radio with a replacement board for the FHS to be competitive. Whether it be ASF or DSM2. If I am going to spend that kind of money, I will want a bigger car...

What this scale needs is a $50 board, and a $100 radio or module based band for existing racers to upgrade their platforms and new racers to be able to buy used equipment and stay 'current'.

mleemor60
2014.02.27, 01:11 PM
I have driven one of the FHS cars. Right out of the box. It has all the capabilities of the ASF unit in box stock trim. The radio adjusts like the old KT5 and has about the same feel to it. The chassis will take any of the current array of different manufacturer's kibble and should perform accordingly. The big issue for a racer with this transmitter is the lack of model memory as has been the issue with all of the OEM radios going back to the KT1. For the Pro's that we all classify ourselves as this is unacceptable. Sort of like we aren't cool if we don't have the latest "I" whatever. All of that aside. The "sportsman" concept is pretty good for those that are less OCD than we are and are happy with a one car one radio concept for playing at the Hobby Shop or chasing the cat. At some point The big red "K" may come out with an EX-5 type radio to fill the niche in the sportsman category. I would guess that the more or less failure for the EX-5 to become the accepted racers radio along with the incredible inconsistencies of the EX series of 2.4 cars has sent them down another road. I hope not but I wouldn.t be surprised to see the ASF phased out and the FHS board to be backward compatible and become the mainstream.

When it comes down to it I truly believe that Kyosho couldn't give a fat happy rats butt about what "we" want. We are too high maintenance. Never satisfied with what they provide despite the fact that the rest of the world is overjoyed with what they produce and at the levels that they do it. To them we are a nuisance.

yasuji
2014.02.27, 11:20 PM
Not sure why they went for DSM2 instead of the older system so that all it took was a module to keep a radio that everyone is familiar with. I suppose there is more profit in radios than modules especially if you can con the mob into drinking the Kool-Aid.


the main reason for not going to the older dsm system is that even at the the larger scale it is out dated and getting bind issues with all the newer fhs systems just as the asf system cant keep up either having bind issues at large events
as for radio profit pn is not making a tx and i dont think pn ever will





Much like a DSM2 upgrade will be out of reach for many midfield racers who don't have the ability to justify the resources. It would have been nice if the DSM2 radio was an inexpensive alternative... to have the DSM2 upgrade as a path to take to switch from FHS, but the person who buys the FHS car in the first place is already looking at cost, since they didn't consider ASF.


Mini-Z used to be competitive with a $60 radio, you didn't need more, but now you are looking at a +$300 radio with a replacement board for the FHS to be competitive. Whether it be ASF or DSM2. If I am going to spend that kind of money, I will want a bigger car...

What this scale needs is a $50 board, and a $100 radio or module based band for existing racers to upgrade their platforms and new racers to be able to buy used equipment and stay 'current'.

spektrum radios fairly inexpensive ...dx2e 60.00 dx3c 99.00 dx4c 139.99 dx4s (which i use)249.99and the dx4r(which philip is using)329.99
and i believe that all of these radios come with 1 or 2 Rx so u can use it on your larger scale cars:D

imxlr8ed
2014.02.28, 12:53 AM
Never thought I'd be saying this but... I kinda miss my AM 2PL.:o

Maybe I'll start an AM/any fet class... hmmmm. :D

DanDan
2014.02.28, 01:35 AM
An inexpensive computerized Spektrum radio is going to cost $99 and a PN spektrum board will be about the same. The EX-5ur was almost $200 & wasn't half the radio the DX3c is. I can play with other RC cars using my Spektrum.

The same could be said for the KO Propo offerings too. People who are happy with ASF models are not the target audience for either PN/Spektrum or Kyosho proprietary products being discussed on this thread.

EMU
2014.02.28, 01:59 AM
spektrum radios fairly inexpensive ...dx2e 60.00 dx3c 99.00 dx4c 139.99 dx4s (which i use)249.99and the dx4r(which philip is using)329.99
and i believe that all of these radios come with 1 or 2 Rx so u can use it on your larger scale cars:D

Thanks for the info Grant. I had just browsed the Kenon site... DX3C looks like an option, which puts the conversion at around $300 for me... since I cant just buy one board :rolleyes: The OrangeRX GR300 is about $10 for a DSM2 receiver, close to the same size as the Spektrum micro SR3500, which would be good for other micro projects or large scale cars... This is now something really worth considering, for me. My prior search I had only thought that the DX4S and DX4R were compatible (DX4C is new, I didn't even see it when I researched the radios a couple months ago, and I don't think it is available until May)... I initially thought that they had to be DSMR compliant.

The topic was really about an inexpensive alternative, or upgrade route for the Kyosho FHS radio to steer new people into the hobby... I feel that at $200 for the PN board, and the DX3C radio, it looks like the cheapest minimum upgrade option that I would consider recommending to someone.

The EX-5ur was about $130-150 when a few were purchased a couple years back at the local track, and availability was very limited. While this DSM2 conversion is more expensive than just a radio swap to the EX5, it is a viable option for AAA use. Since I have switched to LiPo, and the board doesn't support it, I don't see myself making the switch unless I plan to go to a big race where ASF may be problematic and AAA use is mandatory. Any chance for a 7.4v and brushless/brushed version?

gctkaz
2014.02.28, 08:01 PM
I have a DX3C and IMO it is a fantastic radio. Not just a good radio for the price, it's a good radio, period. Having OrangeRX receivers available for larger scales is icing on the cake. If I were to upgrade anybody's AM or FHS Mini-Z, I would not hesitate to go with PN's board and a DX3C.

That said, I think for the casual driver, the new Sports series is quite attractively priced. I would very likely buy a set to give as presents to people who may only drive rarely.

imxlr8ed
2014.02.28, 09:45 PM
I just went ahead and ordered a batch of fets to have at the ready in case the FHS fry session that one of my newbies had wasn't
a fluke. Plus I really want ti try four fets on that board to see if it operates the same.

Like I said, to me the coolest thing about the FHS is that install ready area on the top of the board!

arch2b
2014.03.01, 10:39 AM
i recently bought a bunch of fets to just in case. our hobby shop is selling the sports series kits and i'm sure it's only matter of time before they come back needing to be fixed.

Kenrico
2014.03.02, 06:09 PM
Guys, what are the chances on converting a mini z module for the Eurus from ASF to FHS? I seen the thread where a Futaba was converted to use ASF. So im wondering if with the components of a Kt19 some one could probably figure out how to instal them in an ASF module ? Im no electronic expert this is just a though!. But worth a try! I know there are some electronic experts on here.