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arch2b
2014.06.15, 12:42 PM
given Kyosho's strategy roll out of moving everything to Sports or VE, i think we need to consider means and methods of accepting VE within the HFAY fold. i know the Kyosho cup series incorporates the VE platform however i'm not up to speed on the particulars of how it's implemented in their program.

anyone read Japanese and able to translate?

TheRinger
2014.06.16, 06:33 AM
Pretty much like what big scale did. Figure out what brushless motor is or the closest to the same output to the stock motor.

arch2b
2014.06.16, 07:40 AM
i've attempted to start something along this line here (http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39345).

it would seem it need to be around 5k. even so, it's faster than a stock brushed motor for sure. i have the atomic 5k motor in my 86mm 906 and it's a good motor, but obvious and notably faster than stock brushed motor. i posted a question to PN to see if they would be making a stock class motor but no response yet. it may be a combination of motor and spec gearing?

there is no point in delaying the inevitable that VE is here to stay, so need to start working it into current programs or risk falling farther behind the curve. Kyosho still appears to be working out the kinks as well so were not alone.

briankstan
2014.06.16, 08:24 AM
I'll Have to get me a VE board to put in a car and do some testing with it I think. Anyone have one and tried out the different motor speeds. is anything comparable with with 70T motors?

looks like PN has motors that range from 5500KV to 115000KV. if they are anything like the speeds that I ran in my 18R they look to be quite a bit faster than the 70T.

I'll pick up a 5500KV and a board and see if we can come up with and equal VE setup to the current Brushed 70T setup. I have two identical cars setups so It'll be ease to test an equal comparison.

mleemor60
2014.06.16, 08:41 AM
What makes the march inevitable? I see that Kyosho has altered some pieces and numbers to work and fit with all the chassis. It makes it look like everything is for the VE and nothing for the 03 but so far that hasn't been the case according to our sales rep.

Just mandate an 8/54 gear set up with the smallest available KV motor and be careful to state NIMH only. No Li-Fe AAA size batteries. That is a can of worms you don't want to open.

arch2b
2014.06.16, 08:51 AM
The Atomic 5k motor is noticeably faster than 70t. I have it setup on an 86mm 906 at 60% throttle. the only PN motor I have is the 10k and I can only get to about 45% throttle on a BTE track.

Unfortunately I have not found any English translations that make sense of what Kyosho JPN is doing for the cup series.

imxlr8ed
2014.06.16, 10:53 AM
I'll chime in as well here with two points:

Yes... find a spec motor closest to the 70turns.

Allow the 70turns and stock 130s to race with the brushless cars.

IMO, I don't think a brushless car will have a huge advantage other than more efficient use of power (when the car is in the right hands). That's the beauty of the short tracks... speed doesn't always win! We all know this by now too so I wouldn't stress too much about it.

Be really cool if we could get an HFAY labeled BL spec motor from PN!

At this point in the Mini-Z culture we need to be as inclusive as possible or else the whole thing will just vanish.\


*Bill... I still crack a smile everytime I see Grimace and his "drank", I don't think that will ever get old for me for some reason* :D

arch2b
2014.06.16, 11:33 AM
speed doesn't = win absolutely but with 70t and above it significantly increases the gaps. if there were a stock 130 BL equivalent i would agree more with practical outcomes but once you get to 70t even, the increase in speed with slight variations on skill can lead to greater achievement gaps. there is a big difference between what bill can do for example with a 70t and what i can do :rolleyes: give him a BL and my separation gap grows without a doubt and with small clubs, it only takes one good driver with a BL to create an atmosphere of upgrade or irrelevant which is really what everyone wants to avoid. at least that is a concern i am always facing in keeping the club hobby least expensive option for fun and competitive racing.

TheSteve
2014.06.16, 11:35 AM
The only motor close to a stock I have found is the Kyosho Eco tune. Even then I'd say it is a little faster. The Atomic/PN motors are all faster, and to be fair larger then the Kyosho brushless, maybe they should be there own class.

arch2b
2014.06.16, 11:46 AM
if only Kyosho made tapped motors... i don't mind paying a tad more the the Kyosho Eco if it's closer to stock but the deal breaker is not having a tapped can. we had a club driver try to tap their own Kyosho BL motor and it apparently made it inoperable so it's not a simple task that anyone can do.

i've suggested adding classes to HFAY for a long time but really, not interested in going faster based on motor. 70t is plenty fast for HFAY layout already. additional classes are better suited to adding a 3 or 4 WL layouts. i'm honestly very happy with stock 130 and 70t speeds. i'm not a speed freak so i'm not really interested personally in going faster than local tracks can accommodate.

anyone with influence with PN, ask again for stock class BL motor ;)

briankstan
2014.06.16, 01:02 PM
I think we would want to keep them in the same class. with the dwindling numbers that we have it won't make any sense to split them into their own. I can see the problem that in the hands of certain drivers they would widen the gaps between the fields.

I know we have guys that aren't driving their cars as fast as they can because consistency goes down and so does their lap count. others can use that speed and gain more because the control is there and are using the full speed of the car as is not having more speed could widen the gap.

TheSteve
2014.06.16, 01:21 PM
if only Kyosho made tapped motors... i don't mind paying a tad more the the Kyosho Eco if it's closer to stock but the deal breaker is not having a tapped can. we had a club driver try to tap their own Kyosho BL motor and it apparently made it inoperable so it's not a simple task that anyone can do.

It's more fun beating people with a stock Kyosho plastic motor pod anyway.

Would be nice if they did tap/thread the motors I suppose. I don't use any alloy mounts so it isn't an issue for me.

cowboysir
2014.06.16, 03:58 PM
It's more fun beating people with a stock Kyosho plastic motor pod anyway.

Would be nice if they did tap/thread the motors I suppose. I don't use any alloy mounts so it isn't an issue for me.

Did you hurt your arm patting yourself on the back, Steve?

The K Eco motor is a fair representation of stock/70t speeds...when Steve actually uses it I can hold with him got a couple laps before I throw in a mistake.

briankstan
2014.06.17, 09:25 AM
.......... before I throw in a mistake.

I like to throw in a mistake or two as well, it keeps thing more interesting. LOL :p

TheSteve
2014.06.17, 03:45 PM
Did you hurt your arm patting yourself on the back, Steve?

The K Eco motor is a fair representation of stock/70t speeds...when Steve actually uses it I can hold with him got a couple laps before I throw in a mistake.

You're reading my statement wrong, you were supposed to infer that you needed to pick up the pace!(and I'm running narrow, 90mm with it)
As I said before I have no issues tuning a car to work well with the plastic motor pod, however if I was losing all of the time I'd likely change my opinion. We're a pretty relaxed group with no serious racing for the most part.

So basically Atomic/PN etc make a motor that is equivalent to the Kyosho Eco motor. Kyosho really did get it right, it is the perfect motor for anything but huge tracks.

arch2b
2014.06.17, 03:49 PM
i think the issue is that the atomic 5000 and pn 5500 are not really equivalent to the eco motor based on feedback. i have the 5000 and its easily above 70t speeds.

lfisminiz
2014.06.17, 06:29 PM
I know this doesnt help with a 70T but the 2 slowest PN brushless motors are a really nice speed without being rediculously fast.

lfisminiz
2014.06.18, 06:43 PM
From what i understand, I talked to Philip (PN) about this. He tested 4000 and 4500 kv motors. 4500 is still faster than 70T. The 4000 motor, Because of the 4 AAA batts dont provide enough power and the 4000 coggs to much as of now.

DMALMAD
2014.06.19, 08:22 PM
With Lipo would there be as much cogging because with the larger scales doesn't lower kv mean it works better with higher voltage just a thought because at Majs everyone is running lipo and there are many options for batteries not just the x-power. Many are using cheap hobbyking 2s packs and just grinding out the chassis a little. Anyways just a thought.

lfisminiz
2014.06.19, 08:25 PM
With Lipo would there be as much cogging because with the larger scales doesn't lower kv mean it works better with higher voltage just a thought because at Majs everyone is running lipo and there are many options for batteries not just the x-power. Many are using cheap hobbyking 2s packs and just grinding out the chassis a little. Anyways just a thought.

Yes, i think that would be true.

DMALMAD
2014.06.19, 08:36 PM
The only problem is I don't know if the average mini-z racer is willing to invest in either an x-power chassis plus buying new lipos or cutting their chassis and or rewiring it with the AAA sized lipos or shaving their chassis flat to fit HK lipos. Personally the lipos make life so much easier because I have all the power I want and I dont have mess with the Nimh. Even after investing nearly 200 dollars just in matched aaa's I still won't go back. Also with lipo there is not a need for brushless, with an Mrx (x-power) and a 43t motot I have to turn the throttle down to 50 high point with -40 curve. A couple of racers tried the brushless cars in the past but they don't have enough drag brake to be driven hard in the corners. The lap times just aren't there but still I know that not everyone is as competitive as us but check this vid out and see if brushless is really the way to go:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLEUHVlyCYA
(I am the white car in the lead for the first minute and 20 seconds and I was using MRX with 43t pn motor geared 10 tooth with 54 spur).

*edit*
brushless doesn't have to be the only option either, you can still buy the pn brushed board and many regular 03 are still available you just have to get them while they are left. Brushless isn't going to take over until they are proven to have faster lap times and win at a competive level.

arch2b
2014.07.14, 06:51 AM
brushless will take over when brushed options become increasing less consistent in availability and ease of use. as of right now, Kyosho is only releasing Sports or VE models. there are options from aftermarket such as GoGo and PN PCB boards but this is not something a typical HFAY entry racer would be jumping into. this is going to force our hands sooner than later. i would prefer to see us respond sooner than later given HFAY participation levels recently. some feel we are already behind the curve.

what about programming an RPM limit for VE cars? while the power delivery will always differ from brushed, if we limit the RPM's it may provide a more level playing field. this would leave VE owners some room to tweak the balance of programming options to achieve a consistent and practical power delivery setting to optimize the setup for a 2 wide L layout, which will not tolerate insanely fast motors anyway.

will HFAY allow the AMZ? does HFAY permit GoGo, PN and other aftermarket PCB boards? I have not had to answer that locally yet but would like to have that answer on record, if it isn't already.

byebye
2014.07.16, 09:12 PM
I picked up my first brushless car this past weekend. I will say that in my opinion the power delivery with a 6t or 7t pinion felt very much like a 70t motor.

In our testing I was able to match my fast lap for the day with a mostly box stock car.
Mods and body
Ball bearings
K fires 30f 20
458 italia body with +2 front and +2 rear wheels

It was really fast for stock. It felt like a fet upgraded car with a 70t. Lots of usable power. Mine had the blue Eco tune speed motor.

imxlr8ed
2014.07.16, 11:56 PM
RPM limiting would be an awesome way to level the playing field. Not only that, you could switch it off and have a mod car ready to go!

BUT... getting every manufacturer out there on board with that would be nearly impossible. Now if there was a way to do that safely with some kind of external "rev limiter" that we could solder onto the wires or build into a spec motor, then I think you'd have something!

Traveler
2014.07.17, 05:27 AM
The VE ICS manual seems to show a setting (TH Max Rev) that MAY be usable to limit RPMs, but only 3 settings to choose from. Might be worth a try?

briankstan
2014.07.17, 12:45 PM
I've never driven a brushless mini-z, and haven't been able to pull the trigger to get one to test yet.

I think we'll have to move that direction in the future. Probably with the next series starting in 2015. we'll need to see what we can find that will be fair to include them in the 70T class. If we have to spec a motor and gearing for the brushless cars that is what we'll have to do.

KWT
2014.07.17, 08:43 PM
You can definitely limit the RPM with ICS. You can also limit the Torque. With a 2 Wide L you can barely go full throttle with a brushless. We should probably consider the Kyosho Eco Tuned motor with a 6 tooth pinion.

briankstan
2014.08.01, 09:01 AM
Ray sent me his Brushless car to test, it was a short narrow setup but handled pretty good. I was able to utilize most of the speed with the car, Had a traction rolling issue with the grip level of my track and the narrow car but was still able to push pretty hard. I didn't have a clean race with it because I rolled over quite a bit, but on the HFAY track we ran last night I still did a pretty good job with it. 87 laps and that was with all the traction rolls, fastest lap was a 3.98. I definitely could have pushed it harder if it was in a car with my setup on it. It was geared at 6/44 with the atomic 5000KV I felt the overall speed was just a little slower than my 70T car.

I think we could allow the Atomic 5000KV motor with a gearing of 6/44, 7/44 or 64 pitch 9/54. For the PN 5500KV we would do 6/44 or 64 pitch 9/54 fixed gearing. Basically gearing it between 6-8 gear ratio.

danjoyy25
2014.08.01, 09:45 AM
Biggest spur for gear diff is only 53t so hope we can factor this if it does go ahead in fixed gearing :)

briankstan
2014.08.01, 10:10 AM
Biggest spur for gear diff is only 53t so hope we can factor this if it does go ahead in fixed gearing :)

what gear diff you referring to? PN or Stock? I haven't run a stock one for a long time. I thought they were 44 tooth spur. Can someone double check that please.

danjoyy25
2014.08.01, 07:32 PM
PN gear diff.

briankstan
2014.08.06, 07:29 AM
yep, by setting the rules the way they need to be not to gain an advantage there may be some parts that you cant use.

before I set the final gearing for next season I'll get my own car setup so I'll have a very good comparison between the speed between the 2.

arch2b
2014.08.06, 08:15 AM
if i may recommend, check out the eco tune motor. i have yet to try this myself but others in our group have it and it performs nicely compared to higher rated Kv motors.

briankstan
2014.08.06, 09:40 AM
if i may recommend, check out the eco tune motor. i have yet to try this myself but others in our group have it and it performs nicely compared to higher rated Kv motors.

Only problem with the Kyosho Motors is that they arenít drilled so you canít use them with aftermarket mounts. :confused:

arch2b
2014.08.06, 10:35 AM
understood, you can buy from shops with added cost to drill/tap but that gets far above the cost for either PN or Atomic low Kv rated motor that is tapped already.

KWT
2014.08.06, 07:51 PM
X-power motor mounts can be used with non drilled motors.

byebye
2014.08.07, 04:34 AM
I'm using the 3racing lm mount
http://shop.tinyrc.com/d_images/3RA-KZ-10-a.jpg

arch2b
2014.08.07, 11:43 AM
i'm sure the 3racing is a fraction of the cost of the x-power as well. how compatible is the 3 racing with standard disc dampers?

briankstan
2014.08.07, 12:10 PM
I've tried the 3 racing mounts that have the slides on both sides, I've never really been happy with that type as they are a bit of a pain to set the mesh and have the motor square with the diff. the kyosho R246 F1 Mount is tat way as well.

also why is Kyosho so proud of the mini-z brushless motors. they are almost as much a a 1/10th scale brushless motors. :eek:

anyone want to trade me a 17.5, 10.5 or a 5.5 brushless for a mini-z brushless motor. :rolleyes:

dameetz
2014.08.07, 01:35 PM
In my country VE is gaining popularity, more and more racers are into it, once you get used to how it drives (ie: almost no drag from the motor) then you'll like it. Its easy for us because we only have open mod class here where any motor can be use for racing brush or brushless, for VE we usually use PN Brushless motor, and the current track record is hold using a VE chassis. I myself am driving a VE car, and I think this is the future of Mini Z, the ease of almost no maintenance of the motor, the consistency of its performance and no brush to be worried of worn out or break in really wins it for me.

TheRinger
2014.08.08, 02:39 PM
Question, can you run a brush motor on a brushless chassis? I doubt it but in big scale at least a few years ago, some brushless speed controllers could run brushed motors as well as brushless. I have a castle creation and Novak brushless speed controllers that can run brushed motors.

TheSteve
2014.08.08, 02:44 PM
Question, can you run a brush motor on a brushless chassis? I doubt it but in big scale at least a few years ago, some brushless speed controllers could run brushed motors as well as brushless. I have a castle creation and Novak brushless speed controllers that can run brushed motors.

If Kyosho has that feature in the firmware they aren't admitting to it or telling us how to do it. So at this point the answer is no, brushless only.

herman
2014.08.08, 10:43 PM
hmm... interesting... i remember answering no (brushless motors only for ve board) as well... but if there is one who can experiment wiring the brushed motor to the three wires or any combination thereof to the ve board without actually damaging it... :D

TheSteve
2014.08.08, 11:55 PM
Wiring would be easy, no mystery there. There would need to be a way to enable the feature, and I'm pretty sure that doesn't exist.

kyoshosan
2014.09.05, 09:19 PM
Kyosho has just announced the MA-020 VE
Here (http://kyoshosan.blogspot.ca/2014/09/extra-extra-new-mini-z-awd-ve-ma-020-ve.html)

arch2b
2014.09.06, 12:57 PM
now just leaves the buggy and F1...

TheSteve
2014.09.06, 08:54 PM
Kyosho has just announced the MA-020 VE
Here (http://kyoshosan.blogspot.ca/2014/09/extra-extra-new-mini-z-awd-ve-ma-020-ve.html)

About time, many of us have been running a VE AWD since the brushless was released.

arch2b
2014.12.21, 07:23 PM
brian,
any updates on integration of brushless into HFAY?

ukyo
2015.01.03, 10:41 AM
this is going to be interesting.. same class? some of our guys have custom VE AWD, some have the new VE AWD, and some have the Atomic AMZ as well.

briankstan
2015.01.05, 09:22 AM
I have included them, I've limited them to the PN 5500KV and Atomic 5000KV motors. I have left the gearing open as in my testing with my brushless MR-03 I couldnít even match the speed of my brushed car even running the same gearing. The brushless might have a higher top speed but not really usable on the track, also if you gear to high you simply donít have the speed exiting the corners thus costing lap time.

Weíll see how it goes this season and adjust things as we need to.

byebye
2015.01.05, 11:28 AM
Brian what about the Eco motors? I've been running the Blue Eco that it came with. $50 is a pricey buy in but I'm not convinced the upgrade is worth it on these smaller track.

arch2b
2015.01.05, 12:49 PM
they are included, brian posted an update in the other thread.

byebye
2015.01.05, 03:14 PM
they are included, brian posted an update in the other thread.

I figured but it wasn't mentioned.

abasualdo
2015.01.05, 03:22 PM
Sorry, late to the party.:)

Are we saying that the listed brushless motors are now allowed in with 70t motors?

Or will brushless be a separate class?

briankstan
2015.01.05, 03:28 PM
I figured but it wasn't mentioned.

I've edited the manual to include any brushless motor with a 5600KV or lower rating. We'll see how that plays out.

arch2b
2015.01.05, 03:31 PM
all lumped in. no separate classes for reasons Brian has previously mentioned. it's not much different than now where you can choose from stock motor or 70t. now you have stock, 70t or =<5600KV. it will be an interesting season 19 for sure but in the end, it needs to be done in my opinion if all were left with are sports series and VE to choose from at retail. at least now one can buy a retail kit from either end of the spectrum and jump right in.

FYI, i'm sticking with 70t for similar reasons Brian mentioned in the other thread.

arch2b
2015.01.05, 03:32 PM
I've edited the manual to include any brushless motor with a 5600KV or lower rating. We'll see how that plays out.

:eek: very excited for this season :cool: it's going to be very interesting :D

reminder, will need to update the website to accommodate the additional motor options so the results can be entered correctly.

abasualdo
2015.01.05, 03:38 PM
Thanks for explaining Ray.

Can't wait for Sat, throwing my hat in the ring with a brushless(PN 5500)

Should be interesting.:D

briankstan
2015.02.27, 09:25 AM
Brushless update.

One of our other racers now has a brushless car, itís setup very similar to mine with the same gearing (53/10) and the PN 5500KV brushless motor. Both of us will be running a Brushed and a Brushless Car in HFAY this season.

Although the cars are fast all the extra torque and the sensitivity of the throttle having more of an ON/OFF feel than a linear feel makes the cars a bit more difficult to handle and hold to the line Iíd like to run with it on the smaller HFAY track. Even with the extra speed Iíve yet to match my best lap time with my brushed car, Iím within 2 tenths on the fast lap, but Itís the consistency that suffers with the speed. Even with the throttle high point turned down to limit the overall speed of the car, the throttle feel just isnít to my liking yet to get the car fast and consistent like my brushed car is.

Iíll keep you all up to date as I tune in this car. Iím currently running the Mclaren 12C body (+3 Rear, +2 front) and my car weighs in at 172.6 grams.

arch2b
2015.05.25, 06:03 PM
looking forward to Season 20, what do we do about all the mass production chassis from x-power, atomic and possibly PN?

briankstan
2015.05.26, 02:26 PM
looking forward to Season 20, what do we do about all the mass production chassis from x-power, atomic and possibly PN?

it's getting harder and harder to keep up with the advancements that have been happening with the development of these chassis' in the little spare time I have.

we'll have to look at them and see if anyone participating has them and would like to use them.

I don't have any experience with them or frankly the funds to purchase them all to test. we'll have to think about if we want to include them or continue to stay specific to the mini-z brand of production chassis'

input is welcome so lets discuss.

byebye
2015.08.03, 03:07 PM
it's getting harder and harder to keep up with the advancements that have been happening with the development of these chassis' in the little spare time I have.

we'll have to look at them and see if anyone participating has them and would like to use them.

I don't have any experience with them or frankly the funds to purchase them all to test. we'll have to think about if we want to include them or continue to stay specific to the mini-z brand of production chassis'

input is welcome so lets discuss.

I think we should include them. Some of us already run the Red Atomic motor with success. The Mini-z is just a plastic chassis with an array of aftermarket parts.

I'd be willing to run one for a season if permitted. However I can't see any advantages other than the fact that they don't use AAA's. We all know that more power doesn't alway equate to faster lap times.

Kris

DMALMAD
2015.08.04, 02:29 AM
I think a fair trade off could be to allow the aftermarket chassis but stipulate that they have to run in a 1s confguration. An MRX wired for 1s would have 1100mah at 3.7v but when fully charged is more like 4.2v so that would be pretty even with a nimh car considering the advantage (possibly?) of an aftermarket chassis.