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View Full Version : Rules ban 3D-printed wheels and slot tires? Why? How is this controlled?


quazster
2015.05.04, 01:35 AM
Hello, I read through the new rules:

http://pnracing.us/pnwc2015/pnwc-2015-rules.htm

5. All wheel rims must be original made for Mini-Z, any modification is not allowed, any 3D print wheel not allowed.
6. Home make tires and slot car tires not allowed.

What is the logic behind these rules? Why are the changes made? And the biggest question:

How will this be controlled in big races? It is impossible. There are many different types of 3D printers out there and you can easily make wheels that look exactly like machined or injection molded parts. And how will the scrutineers see what rubber is glued on the rim? Some sort of chemistry toolkit with extensive database?

Is this an indication that 3D printed parts will too be banned in the future? 3D printing is the future and this will just slow down the development of the Mini-Z class.

I have talked to various racers around the world and it looks like many are thinking of not going to PNWC races anymore because of reaccuring cases of these sort of rules, including me.

Philip, Grant, do you have an answer for us?

tudor_47
2015.05.04, 01:57 AM
I think it is very easy... It is a manufactur series so the are forcing all racers to use PNracing stuff regardless of performance.

quazster
2015.05.04, 02:22 AM
I think it is very easy... It is a manufactur series so the are forcing all racers to use PNracing stuff regardless of performance.

So this is just PN admitting that their stuff is not the best out there? If PN tires and wheels would be the best, I guess everybody would be using them. So would the solution instead be to make better products?

My point is if you make rules you have to have means to control this. You can't control this rule change.

If I would to invest the 1000-1500 to the weekend of racing I would wan't to know for sure that everybody is racing under rules that can be controlled.

Racer-HH
2015.05.04, 02:40 AM
1st off: up to today I recognize a 3D printed part just by the looks of it - especially when compared to an standard off-the-shelve product. Therefore I guess a trained and knowing eye at the technical inspection table can distinguish even better.

2nd: I heard (2nd hand unfortunately) that the main reason is to achieve that everybody has the same parts and no advantage from own developments, which may not be available for others from a private 3D print. For example during the PNEC race 3D printed rims where not allowed, as they had a significantly larger diameter.
So it is not about banning products (3rd party tires were used extensively and are still allowed), but creating equal racing conditions, which is exactly what PN races always have been about (at least for me) and make them so much fun (again: for me).

quazster
2015.05.04, 03:15 AM
1st off: up to today I recognize a 3D printed part just by the looks of it - especially when compared to an standard off-the-shelve product. Therefore I guess a trained and knowing eye at the technical inspection table can distinguish even better.

2nd: I heard (2nd hand unfortunately) that the main reason is to achieve that everybody has the same parts and no advantage from own developments, which may not be available for others from a private 3D print. For example during the PNEC race 3D printed rims where not allowed, as they had a significantly larger diameter.
So it is not about banning products (3rd party tires were used extensively and are still allowed), but creating equal racing conditions, which is exactly what PN races always have been about (at least for me) and make them so much fun (again: for me).

1st: I am a mechanical designer by trade and there are many printing technologies and post processing methods out there to make the parts exactly like "off-the-shelve" parts.

2nd: I fully understand the dimensional restraints, but they are easy to control? And you say that 3rd party tires are allowed, well no they are as off the shelf slot tires are now banned? How can this be controlled? How will the tires be categorized between mini-z and slot tires? And you can buy these "slot tires" from vendors around the globe off the shelf. Should be fair to everybody.

If you really want equal playing field regarding tires, there should be controlled tires, handed out at the racing venue, same batch for all, prepared the same way. This is the way it goes in many of the bigger on-road RC classes.

Racer-HH
2015.05.04, 04:20 AM
Hand-out tires? Count me in!

As for your questions: Slot tires need special rims, otherwise they will not fit. This results in a different diameter. Diameters can easily be measured, at least PN has dedicated products / gauges for this.
Then there are tires made of rubber used in slot car racing, but fitting for Mini-Z rims, such as the ones from Marka. These have been officially used at PNEC. As PN, Kyosho or Atmoic these tires their name on the side walls for recognition.

quazster
2015.05.04, 04:56 AM
Hand-out tires? Count me in!

As for your questions: Slot tires need special rims, otherwise they will not fit. This results in a different diameter. Diameters can easily be measured, at least PN has dedicated products / gauges for this.
Then there are tires made of rubber used in slot car racing, but fitting for Mini-Z rims, such as the ones from Marka. These have been officially used at PNEC. As PN, Kyosho or Atmoic these tires their name on the side walls for recognition.

You can put slot tires on "regular" rims quite easily:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GfuRjVKeJOgXMJ5NJfHskIUzRYg-Xu3EmOD6LrDseS4/edit?usp=sharing

You don't need special rims, so you are wrong on this.

If you need to leave the markings visible on the sidewall, how will you ever be able to turn the wheels down then? As the de facto for size in front for 20mm wheel will bee about 21-23mm after truing depending what you are looking for. Also what I normally do is also sand the sidewalls and make a small radii to the outer edge of the tire to get everything nice and straight and aligned.

Also this would necessitate a tire change as the normal wear caused by racing will wear out the markings in usually few sets of batteries.

So your comments don't apply here or otherwise everybody needs totally rethink their setups for using super high sidewalls in front and change the tires immediately after the markings wear out. Would you be ready to change a set of 4 dollar tires after few sets of batteries? And for a fact I know that high sidewall in front causes all sorts of problems for handling especially uncontrolled traction rolls.

Racer-HH
2015.05.04, 06:36 AM
Thanks for sharing the document. Please look at page 7 for the answer to your question. Slot tires need either preparation or specific rims, Mini-Z specific tires do not. So you can easily distinguish them. No further marks required, e.g. on the sidewall. Although I have to admit: I run my PN front tires trued and you can still see some parts of the PN letters on the sidewall.

Please keep in mind: my posts are my personal point of view and not the official PN one. We have to wait for their response to this topic.

quazster
2015.05.04, 07:04 AM
Thanks for sharing the document. Please look at page 7 for the answer to your question. Slot tires need either preparation or specific rims, Mini-Z specific tires do not. So you can easily distinguish them. No further marks required, e.g. on the sidewall. Although I have to admit: I run my PN front tires trued and you can still see some parts of the PN letters on the sidewall.

Please keep in mind: my posts are my personal point of view and not the official PN one. We have to wait for their response to this topic.

Yes I know because I'm the other one who wrote the document. You can't easily distinguish them. There is now difference after gluing and truing the tires on the rims to PN/Atomic/Marka/whatever black rubber tires.

I have to take a picture for you and then ask how can you see the difference.

DMALMAD
2015.05.04, 08:28 AM
To me it just sounds like PN is trying to make it so you buy their products and tires because technically if you can use kyosho tires at the race or pn tires or marka or whatever there is no real difference if using slot car tires as long as they are not silicon. I get the idea of trying to make it a level playing field but then they really would have to just spec the tires. Ane even then the consistency of the PN tires is horrendous, which is why many went to slot car tires or foam tires. I feel like PN does the same thing when they only allow pn motors in the mod class. That is supposed t obe open, don't restrict something just to sell a small amount more. I was kind of hoping that the PNWC would come back to the US but it seems like it is more trouble than it is worth now. Generally I prefer open tire to spec tire but pn has no solid reasoning behind why they are eliminating only one type of tire.

quazster
2015.05.04, 08:33 AM
To me it just sounds like PN is trying to make it so you buy their products and tires because technically if you can use kyosho tires at the race or pn tires or marka or whatever there is no real difference if using slot car tires as long as they are not silicon. I get the idea of trying to make it a level playing field but then they really would have to just spec the tires. Ane even then the consistency of the PN tires is horrendous, which is why many went to slot car tires or foam tires. I feel like PN does the same thing when they only allow pn motors in the mod class. That is supposed t obe open, don't restrict something just to sell a small amount more. I was kind of hoping that the PNWC would come back to the US but it seems like it is more trouble than it is worth now. Generally I prefer open tire to spec tire but pn has no solid reasoning behind why they are eliminating only one type of tire.

This is my point exactly, you wrote it down just as I'm thinking of this.

Niklaz
2015.05.04, 11:09 AM
Whats the point in the rule about 3d printed rims? Doesn't make any sense. There are already rules on wheel sizes - and they are easy to inspect in post race inspection.

As for tires, PN tires are totally useless, they even take the enjoyment away from the whole hobby. Simply make better tires, fans would be happy! There's no enjoyment in practicing/racing with subpar tires which are inconsistent and last only one race at full performance.

There's no way you can distinguish between one tire brand and another by looking at them. I also true the outer side of the tire, might also put glue on it - there's no way you'd see any brand markings on it after properly prepping a tire.

Even PN guys run races with proto-parts for crying out loud.

arch2b
2015.05.04, 01:36 PM
not a fan of manufacturer limited rules in general but, this is the PN series. PN sponsored, their time, their money, etc. it's easy to complain when it's someone else dollar and hour so to speak. Kyosho is FAR more restrictive with their home market mini-z cup series.

i understand where the frustration comes from, i get it. at the same time however, what other manufacturer is devoting this kind of effort in maintaining such a far reaching racing series?

PN is not the most restive manufacturer series out there however the options are limited given we do not nor will likely ever have a scale standard. manufacturers have the prerogative to set the rules however they wish just as it is our decision to participate or not.

good point about sponsored driving running prototype parts... hard to suggest this is about maintaining an equilibrium in that regard.

lfisminiz
2015.05.04, 06:21 PM
At this point, i would be happy if here in the U.S. we would have PN regionals anymore. The biggest crowds and most fun over the years for me , were when we got together for the PN races. Now, in the U.S., there is pretty much nothing....be glad for what you have. Not much effort with other manufactures.

As far as PN tires..over the last year...months, ive had no issues with rears or fronts.

DMALMAD
2015.05.04, 07:38 PM
For me I have even considered traveling to go to one of the big PN races but honestly they haven't done anything recently in the US and I think that is kind of why racing seems to be dead here. If PN proposed to use spec foam tires I would be all for that and would happily support any race structure they proposed but it seems their perogative is selling their rubber tires overseas. I am happy with my local racing and foam has really brought everything to another level but it seems like for many others racing has kind of stagnated with a lack of progression or innovation.

I think the 3d printing aspect really opens the door for some awesome stuff as can be seen in the incredible chassis JesseT is designing, but if that innovative and intresting stuff is going to be eliminated from racing then the racing experience is kind of cheapened and becomes more like the TCS class of the 10th scale, You limit the innovation and driver setup and customization and the racing becomes kind of like a cheap thrill and not a hobby IMO.

arch2b
2015.05.04, 08:05 PM
lack of progression or innovation? really? we have more aftermarket platforms in commercial production than any period in mini-z history! we have choices of brushed and brush-less systems. i'd argue we haven't see this much development since the mr-02 debuted with the mr-015 following shortly thereafter. we have anything from 2.4asf to PN and atomic electronics and a few inbetween. we are in a golden age my friend, just need to take stock of whats around us and put into context to appreciate it. :p

3d printing is here to stay and will only get better as the tech improves and costs continue to decline. right now it's just not up there with retail commercial quality parts and cost due to limits in production resolution and materials via commercial site like shapeways. there is some great stuff out there, which will spur innovation or the manufacturers will simply get left behind.

i'm glad you guys are enjoying foam. i'm perfectly happy with rubber. we have no common core standards and in my 10+ years to work on development, i'm absolutely certain it will never happen for the simple fact that a majority of people really just don't want them. go figure... in a sense were much like a bunch a nerd rage geeks that love to complain about them but never come to any agreement on what they should be :rolleyes:

who's to say one's cheap thrill isn't a hobby? i love stock class racing and it's just as much a hobby for me as the club an hour away that runs every modified chassis out there. the trouble is in overgeneralizing. i love the mod chassis stuff as much as the next guy, but prefer hfay, and stock myself. putting together custom/aftermarket kits doesn't make it any more legitimate, nor does strict stock class. must strike a happy balance :p the more we keep putting down the other side, the more we tear down ourselves as a whole. just my opinion :)

imxlr8ed
2015.05.04, 08:35 PM
I don't know why they would do that, I have some of the lightest F1 rims out there right now and they're not selling at all. I'm no competition for anyone in that sense. I do have racer wheels with larger offsets than anything else out there though... maybe thats why?

Look, I've been in races with pro-tuned guys... the absolute hottest cells in their cars and every part imaginable on their cars, there are advantages to be had everywhere if you push the limits. I even seen a guy win a race with an F1 car with racer wheels and tires on it... maybe he had an advantage but his advantage was made by him thinking out of the box. IMO... nothing wrong with that.

DMALMAD
2015.05.04, 08:47 PM
lack of progression or innovation? really? we have more aftermarket platforms in commercial production than any period in mini-z history! we have choices of brushed and brush-less systems. i'd argue we haven't see this much development since the mr-02 debuted with the mr-015 following shortly thereafter. we have anything from 2.4asf to PN and atomic electronics and a few inbetween. we are in a golden age my friend, just need to take stock of whats around us and put into context to appreciate it. :p

I think what I meant to say that PN has not released anything revolutionary or even innovative recently. X-power and Atomic are definetly on the cutting edge when it comes to implementation of new technology but unless your club has a dedicated class where people are willing to spend 600$ on a chassis that gets run once a month they aren't doing much good. If I take my MRX or IDT or IMT or AMZ or whatever that isn't nimh rubber anywhere else I could maybe run in the open modified class, which isn't even the most popular or competitive class (I actually prefer stock racing). I have noticed that in the US people tend to gravitate towards PN rules so unless PN specifically make an aftermarket chassis that utilizes lipo or some other special features there really is no way to race these awesome platforms in a large race setting. It was fun running my high tech IDT for 3 weeks but for the last month and a half it has really just been a paper weight that is nice to lookk at and show to the 10th scale guys. While my experience is different from most, if Joe Smoe buys an AMZ and wants to run in a competitive class that has stock regualtions he cannot just because the racing environment has not caught up with the advanced chassis designs. I reaaly hope PN comes out with this chassis I have been seeing spy shots of and that it uses lipo becuase then I think there could be some interesting national races and we could draw a lot more bigger scale guys who enjoy the large race meet scene.

DMALMAD
2015.05.04, 08:53 PM
I don't know why they would do that, I have some of the lightest F1 rims out there right now and they're not selling at all. I'm no competition for anyone in that sense. I do have racer wheels with larger offsets than anything else out there though... maybe thats why?

Look, I've been in races with pro-tuned guys... the absolute hottest cells in their cars and every part imaginable on their cars, there are advantages to be had everywhere if you push the limits. I even seen a guy win a race with an F1 car with racer wheels and tires on it... maybe he had an advantage but his advantage was made by him thinking out of the box. IMO... nothing wrong with that.

I also agree with this, if someone is willing to put the effort in and push the limits no one should be able to telll him no because they didn't think of that or couldn't do what he did. Just because something is difficult or requires a different mindset doesn't mean it is not worth doing. While I hope that every time I race I have an equal chance of winning when it comes to equipment but if I get beat by someone who has better equipment or is innovative that will only push me to be innovate and to improve my quality of equipment. Nothing wrong with that in my book.

JesseT
2015.05.05, 02:11 AM
If PN would force handout PN tires, or even restrict wheels and tires to PN products, then I would understand it. Definately not like it, but kind of understand. It is to promote their products by hosting races. Ok.
If, however, a certain method of machining is banned, it's in my eyes just poor rule-writing and senseless discrimination.

Someone said that there was an oversized 3D printed wheel used in PNEC race that might have had something to do with this. Isn't there already maximum sizes for wheels in the rules, and that's it? It's like if someone used blue Li-ion AAA cells in stock class, then there would be a need (and a chance?) to ban blue batteries...

In the end the PNWC final is just one race in the yearly race calendar, but rules are used as base rules for around the world and so the politics are copied copied along, mostly unintentionally, though sometimes intentionally by active re-sellers.

With PN apparently coming out with their own chassis and own electronics and everything, there is very little Mini-z left in the equation. It does look very much like the sport is going towards a general 1/27th scale championship. Perhaps this is something we should see in advance and make a set of international rules where dimensions and weigth would be the main limiting rules. Let in all LAJF, Sinister, Atomic, PN, X-mods, etc. cars. I'm 100% sure no chassis will give an advantage, this we have already seen over the years, where Pan-cars have usually been no faster than MR03s in the major races.
For me the hobby has always been more about building, tuning and testing the cars, than putting the laps in and practicing driving skills, and I see a lot of people feel the same way. It's typically these people that make the sport easier,cheaper and more exiting for the rest as well.

There is so much that I love in the small scale racing, but everything is not healthy when the price of some of the products are observed. You can almost get a 1/10 SC car with the price of a double A-arm suspension not to mention the new IDT, ITM, MRX,... cars. Competition is always the healthiest for the racers. Othervise the prices go up, and quality down as we have seen already several times.

DMALMAD
2015.05.05, 07:48 AM
I think really the racing regulations and the general racing environment has kind of lagged behind desptite the cars moving forward. I would love to be able to race lexan mrx pan car in a large race setting but the problem is if PN were to make a race for a lipo pan chassis class then I feel they would not allow other manufacturers cars for fear fo finding out that they are not as fast as the others. I think the only way to get a decent race series that allows 4wd tc and 2wd pan chassis is collectively have clubs weigh in and decide on what they want to run and how they would like to do it. Seems kinda of far fetched but if we want a race that allows the openess and diversity that we are now seeing with the cars avialable, then we can not be dependant on a manufacturer to run the race. Maybe do like 10th scale, elect a few guys to come up with rules and create a sanctioning body for races, then everyone provides a little membership money so that races can be ran without relying on the manufacurers. I know ROAR has it problems too, as does all the other sanctioning bodies, but at least the only restrictions on the cars are physichal dimensions and the electronics used (and even then the list of viable electronics is pages and pages).

mleemor60
2015.05.05, 08:56 AM
You are young and full of yourself, and that's what it takes, so why don't you take on lobbying to IFMAR for, first, recognition of the scale and then ROAR for inclusion in their sanctioning of races here in America. Without the former you will never attain the latter. Find a National sponsor that can provide backing for the venture and an Insurance carrier(required for sanctioned events) that will provide coverage for the competitors and spectators as well as the venue operators. Make sure that there is absolutely no prize or purse money available to any part of the endeavor. ROAR in the past has refused to involve themselves in anything that has a cash reward at the end since there are and always will be under age children involved. Once this has all come together, select a National director to represent the scale within the ROAR framework and pick a Regional Director for each of the ROAR Divisions across the USA and I believe Canada. Make sure you factor in the fact that after you select the National Director and all the Regional Directors that there will have to be actual balloted elections within the ROAR framework when such elections take place. I could be wrong but I think it is every two years. Maybe more. It's been a looong time since I held office.

Ferret out and get in touch with the group that hosts the annual "Snow Birds" and see if you can get the scale involved as an exhibition class. That will put the scale in front of the largest audience of RC fanatics in the country. The track will be way too large but it will give the opportunity to let the "genie" out of the bottle so the big dog can eat so to speak. The attention you get(or don't) from that event will tell you if there is a real money making market for the hybrids.

Or. You could look at all the rules packages out there and try to find a niche for the latest round of "flaps up, wheels in the well, belly to the ground missiles: with the capability of reaching "vanishing point". A no holds barred "open" class run what you brung and hope it's enough that can be a support class at "Mini-Z events". Once they get a chance in front of the larger audiences they have the opportunity to build a following and maybe, just maybe catch on and enjoy some growth. I am all for that approach and would back it whole heartedly as I would the lobbying of IFMAR for the recognition of the scale as a whole.

The first thing that has to happen is acceptance of the fact that they are not Mini-Z's and any similarity with actual "Z's" is accidental. They are 1/27th scale iterations of their larger cousins and should be accepted as that. Were they designed to utilize existing Kyosho and aftermarket kibble from the existing standard of the scale? Absolutely. Is that a good thing? Affirmative. Does that make them a MIni-Z? In word, nope. I love the innovation but at this time they are reverse engineered. In time, if they catch on, they might be able to come up with their own packages that if successful and accepted might trickle down to the established "Z" market making them better in the process.

Nuff said.

DMALMAD
2015.05.05, 10:14 AM
I know it is far fetched but it was just some thing to hope for. There probably is not an enough interest in the US to even get an interclub series going let alone national events. Maybe someday though. It seems like the 1/27th scale is doing really well in europe and asia though, thats probably why the PN races are almost exlusively overseas right now with the PNEC the PNAC and the PNWC that was also held overseas.

arch2b
2015.05.05, 12:21 PM
there is interest, there are those that have tried... trust me when i say it's not from a lack of effort. Some have gone out of their way to help develop general standards and series to no avail. you reach a point where you just get tired of pushing $#*% uphill. there are countless dead threads on the subject here. check the events forum, there are inter-club series ongoing, some open invitation even.

yasuji
2015.05.05, 12:31 PM
Hello, I read through the new rules:

http://pnracing.us/pnwc2015/pnwc-2015-rules.htm

5. All wheel rims must be original made for Mini-Z, any modification is not allowed, any 3D print wheel not allowed.
6. Home make tires and slot car tires not allowed.

What is the logic behind these rules? Why are the changes made? And the biggest question:

How will this be controlled in big races? It is impossible. There are many different types of 3D printers out there and you can easily make wheels that look exactly like machined or injection molded parts. And how will the scrutineers see what rubber is glued on the rim? Some sort of chemistry toolkit with extensive database?

Is this an indication that 3D printed parts will too be banned in the future? 3D printing is the future and this will just slow down the development of the Mini-Z class.

I have talked to various racers around the world and it looks like many are thinking of not going to PNWC races anymore because of reaccuring cases of these sort of rules, including me.

Philip, Grant, do you have an answer for us?


Good Morning!
finally got a chance to sit down and discuss this issue!
apparently just a wording error
5. All wheel rims must be original made for Mini-Z, any modification is not allowed, any 3D print wheel not allowed.
should read:
All wheel rims must be original design made for Mini-Z RACER any modification is not allowed, any slot-car design wheel not allowed )
3d print wheels must fall under the "original design made for Mini-Z Racer" rule and must be available for purchase


6. Home make tires and slot car tires not allowed.

to address this issue "home made tires" are not allowed is self-explanatory
any tire must be available for purchase
and what im sure has most drivers scratching there heads....
slot car tires not allowed.
this should read:
slot car type/design tires are NOT allowed
meaning .. just like the wheel rule...must mount to a "original design made for Mini-Z Racer" wheel!

yasuji
2015.05.05, 12:34 PM
I think it is very easy... It is a manufactur series so the are forcing all racers to use PNracing stuff regardless of performance.

glad u see it this way as pn opened the gt mod chassis rule @ your request a year ago and u have yet to apply for approval

yasuji
2015.05.05, 12:46 PM
it is interesting to read the comments on this forum and thank you for all of the input!we have had a great discussions re: 3d print and its future many rule revisions will be added soon as we try to make it appealing for all racers but as we all know ... we can not make every on happy all the time:)... but know that the rules will still revolve around MINI-Z and PNWC!
:D

JesseT
2015.05.05, 01:07 PM
Grant, your version of the rule point 5. and 6. already make much more sense. Although I favor the slot car tire profile for easyness and durability of gluing, this point I can understand. Discriminating a manufacturing process would be just daft.

yasuji
2015.05.05, 01:16 PM
Grant, your version of the rule point 5. and 6. already make much more sense. Although I favor the slot car tire profile for easyness and durability of gluing, this point I can understand. Discriminating a manufacturing process would be just daft.

before i started to race miniz there was an issue in in miniz f1 which led to the current f1 wheel rule where the winner won f1 with racer wheels on
so in turn we will need to keep the current miniz racer standard
wheel and tire dimensions will be clarified on the next rule update :)

Niklaz
2015.05.05, 04:00 PM
Super!

Some thoughts
- When making rule changes they could be posted in this forum for discussion or have them sent to active racers for review and feedback before finalising the rules.
- Regarding rims, how about e.g.

- Any material allowed (e.g. plastic, aluminium)
- Maximum front rim width is x mm. Maximum rear rim width is y mm. Maximum rim diameter is z mm. (each class separately)
- All rims must be available for purchase and fit standard MiniZ wheel mounting

- Regarding tires, how about e.g.

- Tires may not be wider than rims
- Only rubber tires allowed. Foam tires, silicon tires, urethane tires, ethyl carbamate tires NOT allowed. (though definition of rubber is apparently not this simple)
- Tire inserts may not be used.
- No traction compounds allowed. Tires may only be cleaned with a 70% alcohol solution.
- All tires must be available for purchase

- And then what would be cool: Top 3 drivers in each class must agree to share their car setup, and have it published along with final race results :)

PS. "Available for purchase" rule is a bit tricky as you could of course make the product "available but out of stock", "available but outrageously pricey, e.g. 10 000 USD", "make it available in your own webstore on the morning of the PNWC finals". You would not gain friends of course by doing so, but worth a thought.

DMALMAD
2015.05.05, 04:45 PM
Good Morning!
finally got a chance to sit down and discuss this issue!
apparently just a wording error
5. All wheel rims must be original made for Mini-Z, any modification is not allowed, any 3D print wheel not allowed.
should read:
All wheel rims must be original design made for Mini-Z RACER any modification is not allowed, any slot-car design wheel not allowed )
3d print wheels must fall under the "original design made for Mini-Z Racer" rule and must be available for purchase


6. Home make tires and slot car tires not allowed.

to address this issue "home made tires" are not allowed is self-explanatory
any tire must be available for purchase
and what im sure has most drivers scratching there heads....
slot car tires not allowed.
this should read:
slot car type/design tires are NOT allowed
meaning .. just like the wheel rule...must mount to a "original design made for Mini-Z Racer" wheel!

That seems much more reasonable. Looks like you are just trying to keep a level playing field is all. I know because I make my own tires and while it is a lot of work especially with the foam but in general custom made tires that are not designed for the mini-z requires a certain level of patience and tooling, not to mention the performance gains of some of the different non mini-z foam or rubber tires out there. Honestly just spec the tire or do controlled tires where number of tires that can be used for qualifying, control practice, and mains is limited. That way you make things more even and reduce cost or the ability of racers with greater budgets to run new tires every run.

tudor_47
2015.05.06, 02:02 AM
glad u see it this way as pn opened the gt mod chassis rule @ your request a year ago and u have yet to apply for approval

Grant,

Yes I know we can get our car apporved... we have yet to make this happen..

When the subject is up.
Is the approval for all coming PNWC race or for one year only?

I still think that if the chassi conform to rules layed out by the technical rules, dimensions and such, it should be allowed to compete (modified classes), I have been running in the pancar mod class, I do not think I had any unfair advantages compared to my fellow racers, noone has ever said anything about feeling they had a disadvantage due to me using my P28.

I get that in stock it should be a Kyosho chassi, but then again why is that so certain? I mean the only difference from mod is the motor, so by putting in a 70T in a P28 should make that OK in stock too. In many aspects stock is even more difficult than mod and can get more expensive.

And lastly the P28 is available in our shop, so all can get one.....

quazster
2015.05.06, 03:47 AM
Thank you for the quick clarifications. I think this was just a case of "lost in translation" so to speak :)

Please find attached my idea on how to make the wheel dimension rules even more clear.

Now you can just insert the picture on the rules and write a table f.ex.:

FRONT WHEEL:
A: max 8.5mm
B: 19 - 21mm
C: free

REAR WHEEL:
A: max 11mm
B: 19 - 21mm
C: free

And also define sizes for LM-sized wheels.

Also one idea that we have found to work: make rules to Google Drive as a document. Then it will be really easy to edit the rules and also you will always have the most recent rules available. There is also a version history control in drive so you can easily track the changes made in the document.

Here are the rules for the Z Racers Open 2015 held in Vimmerby so you get a better picture of what I'm talking about:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q4UiPSEM3ZzmTdFVW_ImypHZoP1N3z8Ps3ZmPpMJCjw/edit?usp=sharing

We also have done lots of clarifications and re-writes in attempt to write the rules in a unambiguous manner, so that they can only be understood in one way.