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DMALMAD
2015.07.07, 01:46 PM
So I kind of talked about this in my build thread as it pertained to the fact that you run pan cars on foams not on rubber but anyways I thought that it would be more appropriate to start a new thread. Anyways I made a little write up here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mH9_pg2r_Y9aNd8bKBYx14KAK7Z8VaBcZ-oJ3aarccU/edit

And I was wondering why those of you who despise foam hate foam? Do you have any valid reasons? Have you tried foam on carpet and RCP and rubber on carpet and RCP? I would seriously like to hear your feedback as I think the outlawing of foam is the most ignorant and absurd thing in the Mini-z racing Community. :rolleyes:

arch2b
2015.07.07, 02:23 PM
more often than not, i'm sure it has more to do with people saucing up foam tires which may be detrimental to the track material. same reason why many ban silicone tires as well. it's not absurd for the one paying for the track ;) i personally don't care myself; rubber, foam, so long as tire treatments are not used that would alter track materials. foam tires for mini-z have been around for ages and widely used in other areas. just happens we are not one of them :p unless a facility decides to go only one way with tires, it's a financial gamble to risk jeopardizing that investment.

i've never spent more than $20 on tires for any event in the last decade but that's just my experience. you can always use the argument that some spend ludicrous amounts of money for any scale, any purpose because there are no shortage of people that can throw money at any problem. it's far from teh most common occurrence however. i've only had issues truing rubber ties maybe 3 times as well and really limited to a single manufacturer. your intro is based on some wide margin generalizations in my opinion. i do not entirely disagree but the intro sets up the later and it's really based on just as much 'foam' bias as 'rubber' bias against foam.

i'm confident that foam will continue to increase in usage. for the u.s. market though, until PN switches, rubber will remain as PN has the dominant position in racing rules. they offer foam because i'm sure it's a selling product in other markets that are dominantly foam. smart for them to cater to a global market vs. domestic only.

yes the mini-z market is smaller now than just a couple years ago however i would argue it is overall, full of development and innovation, maybe even at the peak. the recession hit the market hard and it has never been easy economically to keep a commercial track facility open, even in the good times. at it's peak in the early HFAY seasons, it was the club level that saw the huge explosion in membership vs. retail. retail for mini-z will always remain small niche, for reasons amply covered and addressed ad nauseam in other threads. mini-z will likely never be the same as larger scales and not really bothered by that either. were talking about a lifestyle product that was imported from japan to begin with...

a much better exposition on tires (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GfuRjVKeJOgXMJ5NJfHskIUzRYg-Xu3EmOD6LrDseS4/edit).... no offense intended but it's clearly more instructional and informative

DMALMAD
2015.07.07, 08:57 PM
I have seen that article and this is not to try and talk about tire setups this about foam v.s. rubber and thats all. While I agree foam will not be widespread unless pn switches to it but I have heard rumors that they may be testing some carpet foam out in Cali ;) However for the RCP arguement there really is no need for traction compound on rcp, the compound is for the first 3 or 4 laps and then there is no noticable difference. And while using compound and then trying to go back and run rubber would be difficult, the compound itself is only slighty different from wd-40 and that is used by many for rcp racing so it is not like it would tear apart the rcp or degrade it.

Basically what I am trying to get at is that I cannot see an advantage of rubber over foam but there are many advantages of foam over rubber so I want to know why people still prefer rubber when it is more economical and beneficial to racing to run foam :confused::confused:

If you want I could go for days about tire preperation, different compounds, saucing times, effect of sidewalls and etc, but what I am really trying to get at is that the foam is avialable from PN (although much poorer quality then X-power since two out of three times I bought pn the tires came with two different offsets within the same package, all PN foam has pretty bad airbubles, and the mounting is very subpar with great variance between two of the same tires) and I don't really hear about anyone testing or using it here in the states.

If anyone has any questions about the ins and outs of foam tire racing aks them here as I will be happy to answer your questions since I believe the thing that prevents racers from trying foam is their lack of knowledge about it. While my statements may seem very one sided I have tried and have a lot of experience with both types of tires and can defend any pro or con on that list ;)

There are also a couple of things that I disagree with in that primer article, not that they are neccesarily wrong all the time (but for example he mentions that a softer front tire will scrub speed but in actuality if you have too hard a tire in the front you will have more wheel spin and not enough forward grip so the front tires will end up creating useless friction, over heating, and scrubbing which will lead to lower tire life and much more time lost due to slow corner speed. Often times going to a harder front tire is a setup band aid used in stock classes because the softer the front tire the less steering travel you need (more corner speed) and the longer life you can get out of the tires. This is not to say run 6's up front (although this can be effective) but just be mindful that a 15 really is the hardest you should be going (of course track conditions also play a role in this). This is just one example but my point really is that everyone has their own tests and results and it is hard to judge foam tires without trying them so if after testing foam tires you don't feel differently about their benfits all the power to you but at least you tried them...that's my point try them and see for yourself if they are really as bad as everyone is telling you they are.

byebye
2015.07.09, 06:00 AM
In my decade of racing I've yet to se someone run foams on rcp. Not because of prejudice but more because rubber is more accessible and just plain easier as no compounds and such are required.

Our club rules for open class do not exclude foam but do exclude the use of silicone and traction compounds in order to preserve the track.

Please enlighten me on the best foam for rcp that is plug and play.

Kris

arch2b
2015.07.09, 06:07 AM
X-power sells mounted tires/wheels. There is another company that sells them and used to be a regular event sponsor grandini? I had a couple sets that were door prizes and never used them. I gave them to one of the remnant guys. Some of the remnant guys have foams. Not sure how often they get used but I've seen them on cars, I'll ask around this weekend.

cowboysir
2015.07.09, 09:51 AM
Foams have their place but in my view car racing is done on rubber tires so mini-zs should be on rubber compound wheels. I've been through the foam phase and I didn't like the abrupt turn and couldn't drive my chassis on a "round line".

A lot of guys (me included) at our track think that racing foams against rubber is the equivalent of cheating....we have one or two holdouts that because of the difference in grip get away with the bump/block pass and haveahigher chanceof driving away from contact more than the rubber tire driver.

DMALMAD
2015.07.09, 11:48 AM
Foams have their place but in my view car racing is done on rubber tires so mini-zs should be on rubber compound wheels. I've been through the foam phase and I didn't like the abrupt turn and couldn't drive my chassis on a "round line".

A lot of guys (me included) at our track think that racing foams against rubber is the equivalent of cheating....we have one or two holdouts that because of the difference in grip get away with the bump/block pass and haveahigher chanceof driving away from contact more than the rubber tire driver.

If you cannot drive with foams then you probably do not have the right setup as the car is more twitchy with rubber than with foams. You have to glue the sidewalls on foams no matter what. Also rubber and foam should not be run together as foams are clearly faster. While rubber tires may seem easier to drive if you take the time and get used to foam you will appreciate how you can spend 10 min working on your tires before your race day begins and the car will behave exactly the same as the previous time you raced. With the X-power tires you do not have to worry about rounding edges or mounting tires and they are the most consistent tires avialable at this scale. If you have played with gluing the sidewall (and no using dollar store crazy glue does not count, you have to buy foam safe light CA and should also probably use CA Accelerator) by applying multiple coats and making sure that the glue does not go onto the contact patch of the tire then you will not have problems with twitcheness. Maybe you experienced the diffculty with foams because you used thin tires in the front, we almost exculsively run soft compound wide tires in the front and supersoft in the rear. This does two things, it increases the contact patch giving more overall steering and at the same time eliminates twitcheness by widening the front. You will also notice that using a slightly taller and wider rear tire like the x-power F1 tires will also increase stability and traction.

One thing that I try and stress to newcomers to mini-z is that practicing and racing a car that handles poorly and is ill-prepared will only hurt your driving ability. To improve as a driver you must have a well setup car along with a lot of practice time. This is why many racers spend a long time in the sport but never excell. And if you apply this theory to tires (since they make up the most important aspect of the cars handling and setup) racing on rubber tires does not mean that you are improving your driving skill, just that you are improving your driving skill on rubber tires. That is why it make take some time to adjust to foam tires as you have been accustomed to an ill handling car and cannot handle a car that is handling at a superior level. It does not matter what level driver you are, practice with the correctly prepared car is the only way to progress. So with this in mind it is no wonder you may have not liked the foam as you did not give it ample time and also did not have ample competition on foam. Like anything if you and the other people you race with are not pushing each other to go faster, none of you will improve driving skill.

Also you do not provide the compounds you were running and the preparation you made on your tires. If you are lazy and ill prepare your rubber tires, then it will be much more noticable when you run foams. This however is a good thing as it makes everyone prepare their tires to a higher degree and as such the racing becomes better.

If You mandate that foam is the only tire to be used than no one will have the advantage except those with a better setup car and more driving skill.

DMALMAD
2015.07.09, 12:00 PM
In my decade of racing I've yet to se someone run foams on rcp. Not because of prejudice but more because rubber is more accessible and just plain easier as no compounds and such are required.

Our club rules for open class do not exclude foam but do exclude the use of silicone and traction compounds in order to preserve the track.

Please enlighten me on the best foam for rcp that is plug and play.

Kris

The answer is X-Power rc foam tires. They have the whole range of foam from awd to F1 and have all compounds in between. The compounds that everyone should start with is very soft rear tires in the rear and soft 0 offset rear tires in the front. You can also use F1 very soft tires in the rear as well. The X-power tires come pre-prepared, all you have to do is glue the front sidewall and true down the fronts to 23.75 to 23mm (more usable sidewall than rubber if you did not notice) and the rears just so that they are flat. The front sidewall should be stiff and not flex at all. To do this multiple coats of thin CA should be applied (3 or more). The first coat of glue should be left for about a couple minutes and then the following coat should be heavier and CA accelerator should be used once. Then apply one or two more coats. Once the accelerator has been used it will make the ca of the following layers cure very fast. The front tires should be glued as close to the same time as possible and the entire gluing and truing process should take 10-15 min. Once you have become accustomed to the process it should be even faster.

You can also use PN foams but the rear tires are not really soft or sticky enough so if PN tires are used all the way around you should only use them in classes where a 50t or slower is used until PN revise their foam. The PN tires also have a large amount of air pockets and do not come with pre rounded edges and also the foam is often times slightly wider or place farther to one side of the tire than the other with great variance between two tires within the same package. This is not to say that the foam does not work, just more prep time is needed. I also prefer the X-power rims as they are black, look better, and are much more sturdy / fit the bearings better.

GQ Also makes foam tires and are probably more affordable but you would have to order them from overseas and I have no experience with their pre-mounts or foam donuts. From the pictures it looks like they have rounded sidewalls and fill out the entire rim unlike the PN, but until I see them I person I cannot speak for them. However the GQ look like they have more compound options avialable but probably you would want to stick with very soft rears in the rear and soft rear 0 in the front.

I just wanted to clarify that the X-Power and PN tires are available in the US while only the F1 GQ tires are avialable in the US, you have to purchase the racer series tires from their overseas site.

xmodcanuck
2015.07.18, 04:22 PM
and the entire gluing and truing process should take 10-15 min. Once you have become accustomed to the process it should be even faster.

But this whole process that you've described is 10x the amount of work as mounting rubber tires. Here's what I do with rubber tires.....(1)open package of tires (2)put on rims. Done. Sometimes I'll put tape on the fronts, that's a whole extra 20-30 seconds of prep time.
I guess if you're racing for money or pink slips that kind of time investment is worthwhile but when you're just racing for fun it seems a bit overkill.
That's just my opinion on why maybe so few racers choose foam.

DMALMAD
2015.07.19, 05:21 PM
And you will never be competitive with that kind of tire prep.... that is the one of the most disapointing factors of rubber tires, people think that just slapping tires on their rims is ok :rolleyes: It is less work if you take 4 tires out of the package and put glue on two of them then gluing all four sets of rubber tires to the rim. And if you consider the fact that it is much easier to drive and overall cheaper than I guess the extra time learning how to efficently prep and maintain your tires is worth it...

Sure if you are kicking around in your basement by yourself and only buy new tires once a month then there is no reason to choose either foam v.s. rubber, just get whichever is easier and cheaper to get. But if you race with a competitive group of racers then moving to foam tires is a logical decision because it makes it easier for new racers to get up to speed faster and learn how to drive the car more easily. From personal experience learning to drive on rubber tires I stayed at the bottom of the b-main for over a year and was making little to no progress, but when we switched over to foams I started improving and making it to the amain in a matter of a couple months.

Technically speaking foam tires have a much greater slip angle when compared to rubber tires so the transition from having traction to not having traction is much more gradual, hence even when the car is not locked in there is a controlable slide while with the rubber tires the loss of traction is much more sudden and less contolable. This is why traction roll and erradict handling is common with the rubber tires. With the foam tires the car will have more grip and will almost always feel glued if your setup is close and even when you encounter a loss of traction the car will remain predictable. This is why it is easier to drive foam tires and the learning curve is much less steep.


Basically if you think running your rubber tires without glue or even tape is a good practice, you need to re-evauate the way your car handles, how competitive you are, and what level of commitment you have to racing. If you do this and determine that you are happy to just have fun wheeling around with the stock kyosho motor and do not really care how your car handles and the laptimes you can do then you should deffinatly stick with rubber tires... no doubt about it. But if you think that getting optimal performance and drivablility out of your car is important than maybe give foam tires a try.

I think Rubber tires have their place, for basher oriented mini-z racers, but clearly foam tires should be considered for competitive racing.

arch2b
2015.07.19, 05:38 PM
Some of the guys with slot car experience will argue otherwise ;) . It's you will find just as passionate and competitive drivers with slot car experience and run rubber only say similar thing of rubber. It's really a matter of what the venue prefers and what your looking to get out of it. I'll continue to argue you can have a enjoyable and competitive series with a very limited stock class. Kyosho has been racing these for over a decade on rubber and doing well. Foam is not a requirement to take it to the next level, it's simply another tool in the arsenal. Some of have no large scale experience and could really care less about turning mini-z into a miniature 10th scale experience. Other will disagree and that's OK :). If your not having fun with what you get out of it, what's the point?

FYI, if you ever want to run a foam race with our group, just let us know. Happy to give it a run. Some of the PA guys make it down from time to time, could be fun and a learning experience.

DMALMAD
2015.07.19, 07:52 PM
I think that both foam and rubber have their place and definnatly rubber tire racing has been more practical for quite some time and I still think that every club shoud run what they want and what works best for them. I guess what I am getting at is that I would like to see a large event or even multi club series which would include foam tire racing. Honestly running foams with box stock cars there really is no point, I think the rubber tire and box stock combo is an extremely good class. The one time I ran the spec gear class in PA I probably had more fun than anything else and I was running a subaru body :p

Basically, I would like to see more people try foam so that maybe in the near future we could see a PN race in the US again. It is clear that there are not enough dedicated Z racers to get that going but if we had a foam class maybe enough 1/12th drivers would consider and then there could be enough backing for some larger races.

I guess it is just some wishful thinking since I got into the Mini-Z Scene too late to get that big race experience, and would like to see that happen.

I think the biggest problem with foam tires is that we have to glue the fronts, I think if there is a compound avialable that would eliminate this then foam tires would deffinatly be more feasible, but until then I think the average racer will continue to choose rubber.

Also a side note, I know at my club everyone has a tire truer but I know this is not the case everywhere else... about what percent of club racers own a tire truer?

imxlr8ed
2015.07.20, 11:49 AM
Nothing like a brand new set of foams on your car... until someone rear ends you and chunks your brand new trued rears and forces you to spend more money for the next heat. At least that's my 10th scale experience.

Foams on carpet are fine, on RCP though... the entire racing surface is already foam (what more could a racer ask for?!)

I've sat through all kinds of discussions like this from day one with the Mini-Z, and it always seems to go back to rubber.

See, you have to understand... not everybody who races these cars are quite so gung-ho to get every little tenth of a second out of each lap so it really doesn't freekin matter to them. And I'll say one thing here, if foams are so awesome, why does everyone have to instantly sauce them to the point of leaving tracks when they pull away?

Don't really care either way unless someone again decides that Simple Green is a good traction compound and puts the car on my RCP! :mad:

Have fun... cheaply. That is and always will be the best route.

mleemor60
2015.07.20, 11:58 AM
Gerry curled foams on any surface can make you "superman" til the snot wears off. Then you are just another driver with a tire dependent set up longing to hear the horn.

If you could get a big PN event near enough for you to attend you can likely bet the farm that the race would be run on PN foams only so where would that put you in the grand scheme of things.

If you want to try some GRP foams I have a wide variety of fronts and rears in varying offsets and compounds that I purchased for an experiment that was never completed. They are all still sealed(4 to a package) in their pretty pink and black boxes. Compounds for carpet as well as RCP.

DMALMAD
2015.07.20, 02:39 PM
I have never seen a foam chunk due to impact at this scale..... Only time the tires cunk is when you run them for 3 race weeks straight and even then they usually don't.

As for the traction compound you don't need it but it makes it even better so why not? On RCP the surface is already more abbrasive so it is not neccesary.

As far as cost it is more effective to race foams rather than rubber tires, you get less drop off in performance and longer life so I don't understand the comment about it being cheaper to run rubber tires.

PN Ruber tires:
front: 4$
Rear:4$
Rear Rim: 4.5$
Front Rim: 4.5$

That is 18$ before taxes and hobby store markup, which is more expensive than foams since you only get 3 runs before your tires start to feel like crap. Plus you can actually true your rear tires without gumming them up. Realisticly rubber tires on rc cars degrade much more in a shorter period of time... just look at 10th scale and how they are spending 40$ for 1 run tires...Just for apples to apples:
PN Foam:
Rear: 9$
Front: 9$
(That is 18$ btw)........:rolleyes:

I would not mind running PN tires if other people wanted to run them, but there is no spec tire for PN races so why would that change if we started to run foam? Sure the usual PN fanboys would run their foam but what is to stop anybody from running x-power or GQ?

Gerry curled foams on any surface can make you "superman" til the snot wears off. Then you are just another driver with a tire dependent set up longing to hear the horn.

If you could get a big PN event near enough for you to attend you can likely bet the farm that the race would be run on PN foams only so where would that put you in the grand scheme of things.

If you want to try some GRP foams I have a wide variety of fronts and rears in varying offsets and compounds that I purchased for an experiment that was never completed. They are all still sealed(4 to a package) in their pretty pink and black boxes. Compounds for carpet as well as RCP.

I don't understand what you mean by the snot? If you are refering to traction compound, it is really just used for the first handful of laps....Cars usually do their hotlaps in the middle or end of the race when it has worn off. It is with rubber tires in the larger scales that you run into trouble with traction compound and tire heating wars.

As for the big race running PN foams I think that with the same tires anyone who has enough skill wil be able to get the hang of foams rather quickly. I also mentioned in my previous reply that I do not think it would be spec tire... Look at all the big 1/12th races, they have never really ran a spec tire there.

I do not think that the GRP tires would be competitive. They were tried and were not that great, also they are no longer available (I think) so testing them would do you no good since you could not get more.

imxlr8ed
2015.07.20, 02:54 PM
If I go to my older tire box right now and pull out a set of old school GPMs that have been out of the bag since 03, they will still work the same as they did back then. Not only that but I can put them on any rim I choose and not have to glue them down or prep the outer edges.

So, we run rubber because then I don't have to force a newbie to go out and buy 4 sets of foam tires to race with us! And if he wants better tires, I reach into one of my boxes and give him a full set of tires, not worrying about if they are trued, glued or chunked... just slap'em on and go!

Once again... not everyone is looking to turn lap records. We are now going on years without any real major race events in the states. Regionals are apparently dead.

arch2b
2015.07.20, 02:59 PM
With PN being the only large event sponsor domestically, they can spec whatever they want. When Kyosho had the mini-z cup they were very restrictive. Those who foot the bill get to make the rules which is only fair.

I don't realistically believe we will see a large event domestically other that what PN is doing. God knows it's been tried and there are some open series available but just hasn't caught on for any number of reasons, the least of which is what tires are used. Mini-z is a niche hobby. Has been for 15 years and likely will be for the next 15. Lots of debate here on what is or is not right with events here domestically, status of the hobby, etc, certainly enough that it need not be rehashed here (distraction to the subject at hand). Suffice to say, favored tires may swing to foam yet, only time will tell. We used to run on painted wood tracks, then carpet, the rcp, back to carpet, and seemingly back to rcp. Change is inevitable.

TheRinger
2015.07.20, 10:46 PM
:d kyosho tires rule!!!!:d

and if you race foam you are a fool!!!!

DMALMAD
2015.07.20, 11:20 PM
If I go to my older tire box right now and pull out a set of old school GPMs that have been out of the bag since 03, they will still work the same as they did back then. Not only that but I can put them on any rim I choose and not have to glue them down or prep the outer edges.

So, we run rubber because then I don't have to force a newbie to go out and buy 4 sets of foam tires to race with us! And if he wants better tires, I reach into one of my boxes and give him a full set of tires, not worrying about if they are trued, glued or chunked... just slap'em on and go!

Once again... not everyone is looking to turn lap records. We are now going on years without any real major race events in the states. Regionals are apparently dead.

Not saying that everyone is trying to turn lap records... just better, more effective racing.

Giving some one new crap tires is not a solution to the eventual costs and the fact that the car will not handle that well. It is kind of off putting to put the car on the track and have it flip, push, hop, etc. etc.

I provided a logical rebuttle to your generalized statement that rubber tires are more cost effective and you respond with a response that serves no purpose...:rolleyes: It does not matter what tire you use, there will be someone that wants to go fast and someone who is cheap.... This is a hobby and as such you need to pay to play, it is just in the nature of it. AND IF YOU ARE ALREADY PAYING YOU MIGHT AS WELL MAKE YOUR MONEY GO FURTHER. It is all well and good to rely on old tires and to reuse crap rims but the reality of it is if you have to spend money on tires (which is something that every racer has to do) You might as well get the best option available.

There are some people with a sport chassis who show up now and then but they do not really matter... If a big race ever starts to happen again they are not the ones who will be supporting the hobby shop and the manufacturers or the club tracks or whatever. It is the racers that buy new tires and rims and parts and upgrades and new chassis that make the racing possible... I am not trying to tell anyone that you should not race rubber tires, just that with the intention of bettering the hobby and trying to get a Mini-Z scene going again maybe foam tires should be considered.


Sorry for the tangent but I believe it needed to be said. What ever type of racing (rubber or foam) the only way to grow the racing community is to attract and foster new racers, not bashers..........

:d kyosho tires rule!!!!:d

and if you race foam you are a fool!!!!

And this type of ignorant bias is really the intention of this thread.... Do you have any experience racing foam tires? Why should the racing community cater to the racers who are unwilling to invest in their own hobby?????? If foam is more cost effective, faster, more resiliant, and easier for bigger scale racers to transition into why would you call it foolish to use them. Logically foam tires make more sense for the racer........ Sure if you are a basher and think that having a car that spins and is erradict is fun all the power to you. You do not have to be in the amain or have MR33 driving skills to enjoy a car that is compliant and easy to drive. I am not saying that rubber tires are useless, just leave them for basement racing stock classes................:eek:

arch2b
2015.07.21, 11:30 AM
It's just a topic that has entrenched opinions either direction :). It's similar to debates on rules, classes, etc.

Rune
2015.07.21, 01:36 PM
Tires, tires, tires.
Important yes, and lots of lessons has been learned trough the years.

We have been racing Mini-Z around here since late 1999. Our club has been in operation in all these years, and we have been trough many different track surfaces, spanning from painted concrete, wood, latex painted wood, Plasti dip covered MDF, Regupol (Rubber mats) and RCP.
For RCP the rubber tires are faster. For the other surfaces foams are sometimes faster, sometimes not.

For all these surfaces our club ended up using rubber tires. Why?
- We lost members as soon as foam tires was in use.
- Most members think cars feel more natural on rubber tires.
- Most members hate the use of traction compounds.

So after 16 years of operation, our club are still using rubber tires. It is more challenging to get a good setup with rubber tires, but still people love the challenge. We still get new members in from other classes (10th scale, 12th scale, 8th scale buggy and 1/5 scale touring drivers.
They all say the handling and simple tire prep is what really makes the class.

xmodcanuck
2015.07.21, 05:30 PM
And you will never be competitive with that kind of tire prep....

Sure if you are kicking around in your basement by yourself and only buy new tires once a month then there is no reason to choose either foam v.s. rubber, just get whichever is easier and cheaper to get.

Basically if you think running your rubber tires without glue or even tape is a good practice, you need to re-evauate the way your car handles, how competitive you are, and what level of commitment you have to racing. If you do this and determine that you are happy to just have fun wheeling around with the stock kyosho motor and do not really care how your car handles and the laptimes you can do then you should deffinatly stick with rubber tires... no doubt about it. But if you think that getting optimal performance and drivablility out of your car is important than maybe give foam tires a try.

I think Rubber tires have their place, for basher oriented mini-z racers, but clearly foam tires should be considered for competitive racing.

Clearly you didn't read this part of my post

but when you're just racing for fun it seems a bit overkill.

Not saying that everyone is trying to turn lap records... just better, more effective racing.

Giving some one new crap tires is not a solution to the eventual costs and the fact that the car will not handle that well. It is kind of off putting to put the car on the track and have it flip, push, hop, etc. etc.

It does not matter what tire you use, there will be someone that wants to go fast and someone who is cheap.... This is a hobby and as such you need to pay to play, it is just in the nature of it. AND IF YOU ARE ALREADY PAYING YOU MIGHT AS WELL MAKE YOUR MONEY GO FURTHER. It is all well and good to rely on old tires and to reuse crap rims but the reality of it is if you have to spend money on tires (which is something that every racer has to do) You might as well get the best option available.

There are some people with a sport chassis who show up now and then but they do not really matter...
so new racers trying out the sport don't matter unless they drop a ton of cash???

Sorry for the tangent but I believe it needed to be said. What ever type of racing (rubber or foam) the only way to grow the racing community is to attract and foster new racers, not bashers..........

Sure if you are a basher and think that having a car that spins and is erradict is fun all the power to you. You do not have to be in the amain or have MR33 driving skills to enjoy a car that is compliant and easy to drive. I am not saying that rubber tires are useless, just leave them for basement racing stock classes................:eek:

So in your opinion, if a mini-z racer isn't running foam they're just a cheap, ignorant, lazy, basement bashing, money wasting, can't drive moron???

Well excuse me Mr Formula1mini-ztopnotchracer, not everyone has the desire or the resources to be a F1 driver. Some of us poor lowly ignorant grassroots folk just get together to have some fun. Our group doesn't do Qualifiers and B-mains and A-mains. We just have races. Sometimes the races are with AWD and 2WD cars at the came time. That concept probably horrifies you too.

Also a side note, I know at my club everyone has a tire truer but I know this is not the case everywhere else... about what percent of club racers own a tire truer?

This is because your club is clearly full of like minded F1 level racers. Good for you. I'm sure glad I live near a group that is so much more relaxed.

See, you have to understand... not everybody who races these cars are quite so gung-ho to get every little tenth of a second out of each lap so it really doesn't freekin matter to them.

Have fun... cheaply. That is and always will be the best route.

What he said. x10.

There used to be an Indy race held in my area, I attended every single one. The drivers were, for the most part, friendly and available to meet fans and sign autographs. I've never attended other motorsports events but I've heard that the drivers are much the same at other levels of racing.................

EXCEPT FORMULA 1.

I've never been to an event but I've known several people who have and they all said the same thing....F1 drivers are the most arrogant drivers in the business.

arch2b
2015.07.21, 06:03 PM
Which goes back to what I've been saying from the beginning, it's a broad generalized opinion that is no less biased than the counter. It also has everything to do with venue and Motivation. I continue to believe you do not have to put a lot of money into this scale to be competitive.

Rune, Awsome you guys have hung in there from the beginning.

lfisminiz
2015.07.21, 07:06 PM
Tires, tires, tires.
Important yes, and lots of lessons has been learned trough the years.

We have been racing Mini-Z around here since late 1999. Our club has been in operation in all these years, and we have been trough many different track surfaces, spanning from painted concrete, wood, latex painted wood, Plasti dip covered MDF, Regupol (Rubber mats) and RCP.
For RCP the rubber tires are faster. For the other surfaces foams are sometimes faster, sometimes not.

For all these surfaces our club ended up using rubber tires. Why?
- We lost members as soon as foam tires was in use.
- Most members think cars feel more natural on rubber tires.
- Most members hate the use of traction compounds.

So after 16 years of operation, our club are still using rubber tires. It is more challenging to get a good setup with rubber tires, but still people love the challenge. We still get new members in from other classes (10th scale, 12th scale, 8th scale buggy and 1/5 scale touring drivers.
They all say the handling and simple tire prep is what really makes the class.

Totally agree! :)

lfisminiz
2015.07.21, 07:11 PM
I know on F****@@K, im a part of or following many mini-z r.c. groups. The majority run on RCP with rubber tires. They are some of the best Z racers in the world. I hardly think there all wrong and many of them run other scales. Theres a BIG Z following overseas. Great to see what people that have a passion for mini-z do. Shame its not like that here (in the U.S.)

cowboysir
2015.07.21, 08:51 PM
So I think we're pretty much done with the back and forth :

Of 10 respondents in this thread there's 1 person who thinks foams are the way to go. The other 9 think rubber is fine for racing.

I'd have to say a 90%approval rating for rubber its pretty clear foams aren't necessarily the be all end all of mini z racing.

DMALMAD
2015.07.21, 09:41 PM
Thats fair, I wanted to know why rubber tires were preffered and the answer seems to be for the most part that most haven't tried it but just like rubber just because....

I never said that rubber tires shouldn't be used, just that in a big race scenario foam tires would be preferential.... I also never said that foam tires are a neccesity to racing, they are better for more competitive race groups and less effective for groups centered around having a blast driving in useless circles.

Just because more people like rubber tires does not mean they are more informed. Of all the responses for rubber tires I think only a couple of people were justified. The only reason I have seem to have come up with for not liking foam is the traction compound but traction compound is not neccesary for using foam tires. FYI you still have to use traction compound with rubber tires on carpet so the traction compound is entirely dependant on the race surface.

Yes choosing one type of tire is directly dependant upon opinion and environment of racing but at the same time I tried to share my opinion and base it on facts and experience with both rubber and foam. All I wanted was for racers with the opposite opinions to do the same and that seems to be problematic as everyone has to make a debate into an arguement.... they are two very different things. :confused:

But I guess you are right this thread is kind of useless now since barely anyone is able to consider even thinking about trying something new.... Sorry I shared my opinion and experiences since everyone seems to like the way things are in the racing scene now... a few small clusters of basement racing and a couple of dedicated tracks....:rolleyes:

DMALMAD
2015.07.21, 09:52 PM
There are some people with a sport chassis who show up now and then but they do not really matter... If a big race ever starts to happen again they are not the ones who will be supporting the hobby shop and the manufacturers or the club tracks or whatever. It is the racers that buy new tires and rims and parts and upgrades and new chassis that make the racing possible... I am not trying to tell anyone that you should not race rubber tires, just that with the intention of bettering the hobby and trying to get a Mini-Z scene going again maybe foam tires should be considered.

XMODCANNUCK REQUOTE:


Quote:
Originally Posted by DMALMAD View Post
There are some people with a sport chassis who show up now and then but they do not really matter...
so new racers trying out the sport don't matter unless they drop a ton of cash???

If you actually read the full quote you will understand why from the interest of supporting the LHS or hobby shop or even the manufacturers who make getting the chassis or parts or whatever possible a person who buys an rtr and never buys another thing is only hurting the racing communtity and telling the manufacturers to keep stuffing crap rtrs down our throats :mad:

TheRinger
2015.07.21, 10:13 PM
Well if I can I would like to make my peace and be done with this. Let me start with a little history of me. I got into the wonderful world of mini z in the spring of 2006. I picked up a used mr02 Enzo for $50. I was introduced to this hobby by a good old friend of mine which inspired me to buy said mr02. He took me to the club he races with which is the Washington, D.C. Gtg who I still race with to this very day. I won my first race by a hair. This which lead to the next race I showed up for, I was introduced to one of the clubs pro racers who in turn said " so you are TheRinger, the shoe in." Which should obviously explain my username.
Through the years, I've got to meet some great racers both local and abroad. I learned a lot and through practice and determination I managed to do well especially though it doesn't matter to you won a couple of HFAY seasons. But like all the years I've played paintball or playing drums in different bands or really anything in life, if you take it too seriously you will burn out and their for not enjoy what you do. You will grow to hate it and will make you bitter and angry. This is a HOBBY!!! Not a way of life. These are plastic cars that run on batteries and dare I say sometimes rubber tires.
I also have this thing people call "a life" and can no longer devote the time and energy that I once did. I went from practicing and racing every waking moment possible to I'm lucky if I can race once a month. I don't do the prep work to my cars like I used to. But that's life. So what's all of this leading to? Most people got into this hobby, I'll say again"HOBBY" because it's fun and affordable. Although it's easy to get caught up in being competitive, usually some do not take it to the ridiculous. People just want to race and have fun, that's it.
Now to the point. I made a post on this thread last night as a JOKE! But also to test ones character and which I am not surprised to the response to be honest. I have seen you post on other threads and you never have anything good or useful to say and yes I'm talking about you DMALMAD. You really need to get a hold of yourself. For one I did not start a thread on foam tires and wanting opinions on them. Then when people posted their opinion BASH them for doing so. Some of the people who posted on your worthless thread are who I consider good friends. Especially on how ridiculously long post on defending your point of foam tires. Like Dennis Miller I don't mean to get off on a rant but why not since you referred to my post as "ignorant". You are the very reason why someone who gets into and quickly gets out of this hobby. Nobody wants some arrogant tool like yourself to put them down for whatever reason you see fit. People like you are the reason this hobby or any other hobby doesn't advance like it should. I'm assuming you are from New Jersey and if that's the way y'all like to race then that's you clubs business. It doesn't mean we follow lock step with you.
I personally never raced foam tires because 1. Most races I've to never allow foam and 2. Rubber tires are readily available compared to foam. I prefer kyosho tires over any other and that is just my opinion. It isn't solid fact. I through trial and error came to that. I've raced GPM, PN, atomic, 3racing and even gave Iwavier tires a try among others. Kyosho has been the most consistent and reliable. That's what works for me. Doesn't mean it works for everyone else.
So in closing I propose this offer to you DMALMAD, either you apologize to everyone that's posted on this thread or remove yourself from the forums and mini z community. Go back to your precious 10th scale and foam tires where I have a feeling you left because you got spanked on the daily. Because you are not needed here.

DMALMAD
2015.07.21, 11:23 PM
You are the very reason why someone who gets into and quickly gets out of this hobby. Nobody wants some arrogant tool like yourself to put them down for whatever reason you see fit. People like you are the reason this hobby or any other hobby doesn't advance like it should.

I am sure if you came to the track I race at you would feel differently. Every new racer that has come through the hobbyshop and wanted to run Mini-Z I have tried my best to help. I can not count how many a-arms I have built and rebuilt, or front ends / rear ends, to help someone new. Even the guys who buy a sports and only show up to practice once a month. I don't put anyone down, and think that everyone has a right to enjoy the hobby. But that only goes so far, I am not talking about friendly racing I am talking about large events (something I repeatedly mentioned). If I offended you over a tire material than I am sorry but that is all that I was debating. BTW here is a tuning guide that I have compiled and created just so that the transistion from Basher to new comer is not so difficult (this is something I show and explain to every person who shows an interest in racing that I meet at the track): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ECQqRMzAbSPbGdtAusfqkKxxYeBdhcp7tpNdOBl92HA/edit

I think tires are important to grow racing, while I may get carried away, I can support anything I say and am not sorry for anything I said pertaining to or about tires. Just because I think foam tires are better, does not mean that I do not want the sport to diminish or grow smaller. The way I see it, the better and easier it is to race the more poeple will want to race. Simple as that...

TheRinger
2015.07.22, 12:07 AM
Well then why don't you make a seperate thread for why their aren't more large track or big events? Talking about that in a thread about foam tires makes it irrelevant. I don't need a link to your tuning methods. It doesn't really matter to me. Maybe you will make into the history books as "the great tuner of mini z's!" And maybe you truly help people at your track. But it seems to bother you that someone shows up once a month to race with their "sports" mini z seems to rub you the wrong way. Why don't you try helping them. Instead of casting them aside as useless. And how is tires going to ruin this hobby? Seriously?! If people are serious enough about it they will figure out how to set up their chassis. Plus there is a ton of how to guides out there. You're not the only one to do that. But here's something interesting. I raced 10th scale off road for a few years mainly short course. I watch guys set up their trucks to the pros set up sheet. Well the pros set up is usually based on racing blue groove clay track usually in California. Doesn't work well when racing on loose loamy east coast dirt. So really pro set up sheets are kinda worthless, not even a good starting in some cases. RTR's help this or any scale of this hobby. Because they make the chassis for the aftermarket to build better parts for. Without a chassis to make parts for their would be no aftermarket to build them. That includes tires. Now their are custom chassis like atomics amz etc. but somebody new to the hobby isn't going to want to put together a car and end up frustrated then quit. They want something that is ready to run. Not ready pull their hair out. I understand to a point that like I seen when flying rc heli's people buy one from a kiosk in the mall and they get burned on it. That is what hurts any hobby. And thanks for quoting a part of my post to make yourself feel better. What else do you got?

DMALMAD
2015.07.22, 12:36 AM
Well then why don't you make a seperate thread for why their aren't more large track or big events? Talking about that in a thread about foam tires makes it irrelevant. I don't need a link to your tuning methods. It doesn't really matter to me. Maybe you will make into the history books as "the great tuner of mini z's!" And maybe you truly help people at your track. But it seems to bother you that someone shows up once a month to race with their "sports" mini z seems to rub you the wrong way. Why don't you try helping them. Instead of casting them aside as useless. And how is tires going to ruin this hobby? Seriously?! If people are serious enough about it they will figure out how to set up their chassis. Plus there is a ton of how to guides out there. You're not the only one to do that. But here's something interesting. I raced 10th scale off road for a few years mainly short course. I watch guys set up their trucks to the pros set up sheet. Well the pros set up is usually based on racing blue groove clay track usually in California. Doesn't work well when racing on loose loamy east coast dirt. So really pro set up sheets are kinda worthless, not even a good starting in some cases. RTR's help this or any scale of this hobby. Because they make the chassis for the aftermarket to build better parts for. Without a chassis to make parts for their would be no aftermarket to build them. That includes tires. Now their are custom chassis like atomics amz etc. but somebody new to the hobby isn't going to want to put together a car and end up frustrated then quit. They want something that is ready to run. Not ready pull their hair out. I understand to a point that like I seen when flying rc heli's people buy one from a kiosk in the mall and they get burned on it. That is what hurts any hobby. And thanks for quoting a part of my post to make yourself feel better. What else do you got?

I never said to cast aside the Mini-Z sports racers, just that the opinion of racers who support the hobby is more important. I am not trying to go down in history, just point out a sore subject that needs to be discussed. I don't think there needs to be another thread for big events because the more important fact is that tires control racing and seeing as there is no racing going on, maybe the tires need to change. The reason I am trying to keep this thread going is the fact that foam tires could help grow mini-z racing. Trust me I have seen many new comers get frustrated with a kit like the amz or MRX. Even some of the more advanced racers have issues with them. The point is not that there shouldn't be any rtrs, but how about a brushless systemt that doesn't suck, and three different radio types with only one viable radio option (if you buy new), or how about the fact that the rtrs which are supposed to make people want to race have to be rebuilt and meticulously gone through before you can even run the car. The stock knuckles and kingpins are a joke, and there is no rear suspension so if the rtr came with a car that poeple could realistcly take out of the box and race without having to come to a more advanced racer to fix it, then I would not have an issue with the sports chassis. This is not the thread for that though, this is about tires. I know I am on the most extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to tires but honestly I want nothing more than to be able to run a pn regional on foam tires.... that is the point of this thread and if I had to be a little blunt to try and explain why this should happen so be it.

Honestly I do not understand the purpose of your pro setup sheet analogy. I have read that what you are saying is a common occurace, and also firmly believe that finding a setup that works is an individual task since everyone has a different driving style. I put in the fact that I made a write up to indicate that I do have the new drivers intrest in mind, not to toot my own horn. I also never had the experience of being able to rely on a guide like the one I created when I was learning how to race. While most things in the guide have been covered I have not found some where that compiles setup of all kinds, avialable chassis, and most importantly tires all in one place. Nothing new just trying to save new guys some time.

Honestly, I was a terrible driver for the longest time until the track switched to foams. I did not understand setup and the precision required with setting up a chassis until going to foams, and I did not have nearly as much fun until going to foams. While I still am not the best driver, I have fun every week and am always a competitor rather than a backmarker. I attribute this to practice and foam tires and that is why I feel so strongly in favor of foam tires. If they changed my outlook on racing I am willing to bet anything that they will change someone else's too. And while I am at I would like to start a thread about why there are no more regional events in the US too, but I think the tire material is more integral to the growth of mini-z than regional races.

imxlr8ed
2015.07.22, 12:55 PM
I've always been under the assumption that you were a salesman for, or had some kind of deal with X-power Dmalmad... no biggie in my book.

Yes, you race with some of the fastest guys in the world in this tiny hobby. And the ones I know from up there are so adaptable to any type of racing that they can squeeze out wins with any type of car, on any type of surface, with any type of tire. Most of us here already know this.

Just like the carbon chassis posts before, no... we are not all going to convert our cars for huge dollars, we are not all perfect drivers, we do not race every week...

BUT WE DO HAVE FUN! :D

Yes... you are awesome! So much better and faster than the rest of us lowly forum creepers! (is that what you want everybody to say on here?) ;)

Don't shoot down what you don't know dude, just roll with the fact that most clubs run rubber.

DMALMAD
2015.07.22, 01:33 PM
Not a salesman for any company. In fact if you read what I have had to say about x-power and their IDT you would not think that. And I am not saying that everyone should change to foam tires, just consider trying them as I have repeadetly said. I understand everyone has their own agenda and reason for racing but wouldn't it be nice to have a little more people racing?

mleemor60
2015.07.22, 02:03 PM
OK, lets give the boy a little break. Essentially his only problem is that he is at that stage where he should leave home while he is still smarter than his parents and everybody else for that matter. The flagallent ardor and zeal that he espouses would make even Venturino of Bergamo green with envy. He is racing out of what at one time was one of the two premier facilities in the country. Now he just seeks guidance from a couple of the old guard without bothering to learn the dynamics of chassis choosing instead the glue and goo approach on super soft pipe insulation. It is effective though. You could get a concrete block with a two cycle outboard to corner for a couple of minutes. To some, that is racing. He would be miles ahead of where he is if he had gotten in a couple of years on RCP with rubber and mini-Z's instead of the "rockets" on rug and foam. It would be interesting to see him at Fairfax or better still Remnant.

I don't want this to sound like I am picking on him cause I'm not and I would rather not get him too fired up over an observation. I've been face to face with him and his much younger than I am grandmother. I have seen and held the chassis he created. Though crude and cobbled in appearance for a prototype it showed promise. Although he couldn't answer fundamental questions on roll rates and polar moments there is real potential in the boy and his design. Given a structured racing atmosphere like the Reading or Fairfax group with people that will teach instead of just instruct and in time when he unlearns the short cuts and learns the true dynamics of the car or any of the varieties offered in the scale he will be a force to be dealt with. Maybe not a Jacob Feinstein but within that percentile.

Keep at it kid, just calm down a little and learn why the good Lord gave you one mouth and two ears. Also learn to be more adventurous and expand your racing horizons. You will be astounded at what you can learn and the willingness of the rest of us to actually help you. Remember, just because I'm nearly 70 years old and have no interest in punching holes in the sheetrock at the ends of the straightaways doesn't mean that I and a large majority of the racers out there don't know how.