PDA

View Full Version : Using PN Pro 2 Derlin Pinions with Stock Case


Blf
2016.12.04, 04:05 PM
I'm trying to keep s couple of chassis relatively stock but the stock pinions with the motor case spacers are very loud with the ball diff.

Can I switch to one of my PN pro 2 Derlin pinions (9t) and just use the stock 9t lash side plates for the motor for good mesh?

EMU
2016.12.05, 10:02 AM
Which ball differential did you switch to? If memory serves me correctly, the gear differential has a 44t spur, where the ball differential has a 43t spur. Which means a slightly loose mesh with the stock spacer set. This will increase noise, and wear on the spur slightly.

A couple options would be to replace the spur with a 44t spur... or to try different pinions like PN or Atomic and see how they mesh. I would personally try to avoid metal pinions, as they will increase wear on the spur. I have had good results with the PN delrin pinions in the past, so definitely try them out and see if they reduce the noise.

Blf
2016.12.05, 01:51 PM
Which ball differential did you switch to? If memory serves me correctly, the gear differential has a 44t spur, where the ball differential has a 43t spur. Which means a slightly loose mesh with the stock spacer set. This will increase noise, and wear on the spur slightly.

A couple options would be to replace the spur with a 44t spur... or to try different pinions like PN or Atomic and see how they mesh. I would personally try to avoid metal pinions, as they will increase wear on the spur. I have had good results with the PN delrin pinions in the past, so definitely try them out and see if they reduce the noise.

Its the Kyosho ball diff ---- Im trying to stay "super stock" but may just use one of the PN LCG 98mm mounts I bought a little while back on recommendation from Mleemor

EMU
2016.12.05, 02:05 PM
The Kyosho diff is definitely a 43t spur... Try the pn 9t, it should be slightly larger toothed than the Kyosho and quiet down the drivetrain. If that fails, them the other options would be to slightly shim the motor to tighten up the mesh, or swap out the spur for a 44t.

Blf
2016.12.05, 02:06 PM
Shouldn't a Kyosho ball diff be fine mesh-wise with the stock spacer plates/stock pinion as the Chassis come with it from factory?

mleemor60
2016.12.05, 02:59 PM
Only if the tooth count of the ball dif spur is the same as the stock gear dif.

EMU
2016.12.05, 03:17 PM
Shouldn't a Kyosho ball diff be fine mesh-wise with the stock spacer plates/stock pinion as the Chassis come with it from factory?
That is something that always had more scratching my head... Why have a different tooth count on the spur of the gear (stock) diff than the ball diff (44t gear, 43t ball)... This makes the mesh a little loose on all gear ratios with the stock motor mounts when using 48p pinion with a Kyosho ball differential.

The pn and atomic pinion are slightly oversized compared to standard Kyosho. The difference is hard to see, but it makes a difference when using standard motor mounts that do not have fine adjustment. As an alternative, you could also file the front of the shims ever so slightly, and insert additional shims behind them to push the motor forward a tiny bit. I would use that as a last resort... Replacing the pinion and or spur would be a more accurate approach.

Blf
2016.12.06, 12:27 AM
Now I'm thinking about this for my stock F1's - I have kyo ball diffs in there and seem to run great - I have a couple with pn mounts and love the adjustability as well.

I think I may just go mount of the VE pro but on my F1's I want to keep stock motor case with kyo ball diffs, is there a 44 t spur for F1? Or try the 9t or 10t PN pinions here as well?

Blf
2016.12.06, 12:29 AM
I'm running 2 f1s with pn mounts and 2 with stock just to clarify

EMU
2016.12.06, 01:16 AM
F1 spur is 46t on both ball diff and gear diff if memory serves correct. I haven't tried mixing gear diff parts to see if the 44t gear diff spur can work with the hub, do remember that the f1 diff hub has a built in 3mm spacing so the racer gear diff or racer ball diff half is not compatible with the standard f1 wheels. The f1 wheels have a negative 3mm offset.

You can use many aftermarket racer spurs with ball diffs, but you may need to remove material on the internal area off the diff half to clear for bearings if the spur has a center bearing.

I typically use 64 pitch gears on most of my f1 cars, but my diffs are Frankenstein diffs. A mix of parts specifically chosen to maximize performance and remove drivetrain steering tweak. If I discuss o.j. further detail, it would be a topic of itself how to blueprint an ideal f1 differential, and would require a combination of multiple differentials and additional party's that may not be available anymore.

In short, you can use the racer diff rings on the f1 diff halves, which will clear the lip that most aftermarket spurs have, otherwise the smaller racer spurs ( limited to the 46t f1) need to be trimmed, and only the larger ones are compatible. With use on a stock motor mount, you will have to do trial and error and see which spur/pinion combinations and shim positions will mesh the best. I have not used a stock f1 mount since 2008 or so, so I can't really help there. Best thing to do would be to have a full gear set and gear ratio chart to see what ratio you are choosing and try to stay around that ratio when you use the smaller spurs...

arch2b
2016.12.06, 07:21 AM
I tend to stick with plastic/derlin pinions myself. I've always had better mesh and quieter car with them over alloy pinions. Sometimes, you just need the sticking power of an alloy pinion though if you keep leaving pinions on the track during a race.

Mini-z's are not all identical out of the box. Some are quieter than others right out of the box, better gear mesh, etc. Same difference in variation you see in the stock motors really. Some are faster, so are slower. If you get a gravel cruncher, just need to work on fine tuning the mesh or swap out diff/pinion, etc. till your happy with it. My stock car for example is much louder than some others on the track but it hasn't affected performance so I don't bother with it. :rolleyes:

EMU's comments are great and I need to follow them myself :p

EMU
2016.12.06, 02:28 PM
If you are dropping a new pinion on the track, the motor is getting way too hot... And that will be a problem of its own shortly. That would typically only happen with modified motors or awd, but for most tracks you don't need that much motor to the point that it gets hot enough to drop pinions. Awd is typical to use alloy pinion to prevent the pinion from dropping since the motor doesn't breath as easily and there is more resistance on the drivetrain.

arch2b
2016.12.06, 04:00 PM
no shortage of those with more motor than track :p a majority of the time it's simply because people are coming in from other places with larger tracks and tuning the throttle down. I'm sure your very familiar with this :p

Mike Keely
2016.12.06, 05:00 PM
My first thought is that a 9 tooth pinion from a stock car is a 48 pitch pinion. If you go to a 9 tooth PN gear it will be a 64 pitch gear. That Pro 2 pinion will not work with the stock spur gear. As I read this you still have the Kyosho stock gear diff in your car?

Mike Keely
2016.12.06, 05:09 PM
The way that I adjust the gear mesh is by using a file to remove a small amount of plastic from one side of the lash plate (either front side or rear side depending on the direction you want to move the motor) and adding the same amount of super glue in layers to the other side to keep the lash plate tight in the motor pod.

EMU
2016.12.06, 05:39 PM
Mike, you're right, the pro2 is 64 or 126 pitch, the pro match is 48 pitch
https://kenonhobby.3dcartstores.com/mobile/home.asp#page-350

This means that OP has the wrong pitch pinion for his spur. Good catch! Totally slipped past me.

And your method of adjusting the stock motor pod mesh is exactly the way that I would do it. Just be sure to let the glue dry BEFORE installing on the mount.

Arch, I never lowered my motor high point, even on smaller tracks. If I have too much motor, I either swap the motor or use lame cells and lower my gear ratio. I never liked the feel of a lower throttle set point. It would mess with my linearity settings, which were typically positive curves...

Blf
2016.12.07, 04:02 AM
Hey guys - there are specific 64p Pro 2 pinions. I have always used and still use the 9t non 64 and they've been great with every aftermarket diff I've used so that's not the issue.

I started this thread referring to an mr03 ve pro and have now changed to a pn mount so no more issues obviously.

I'm more interested in the F1 diff tips from EMUat this point :)

EMU
2016.12.07, 02:24 PM
I will start a thread regarding the diff tips in the f1 section when I get a chance. Have to look at parts currently available and pricing.

In short, there are issues with differential balance on both the f1 and LM differentials due to the increased length of the shafts, as well as the balance between left and right wheel masses. Ever notice that the car pulls left of throttle and right off throttle/under braking... That is differential imbalance

EMU
2016.12.08, 04:44 PM
Sorry for double post, just wanted to update that I started a thread discussing the f1diff tips
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40860