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-   -   Summer shootout trophy race (RC Car World) July 7, (http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41552)

tommy_greeneyes 2019.06.04 03:00 PM

Summer shootout trophy race (RC Car World) July 7,
 
3 Attachment(s)
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/attach...2&d=1559677523This is our Summer shootout trophy race. The 3 classes will be running our Kyosho Stock, 70 comp stock class and modified. They will be 2 qualifying Heats and mains.


RC Car World
4340 N Route 130, Willingboro, New Jersey 08046

Kyosho Stock-

Kyosho chassis, no modifications
Stock electronics, no modifications
Stock motors & PN 70t motors are OK too, no modifications
AAA rechargeable nimh only
Kyosho bodies, no modifications (whitebodies with paint or stickers are OK)
Aftermarket front body mounts and reinforcements are OK
Kyosho tires, no doping
T-plate open
Front springs open
94 & 98mm bodies that can't fit the LM or MM2 mount can run a PN Multi Length Disk Damper with soft springs only
86 & 90mm bodies are open disk damper with stock motor mounts
Bearings are encouraged
Wheels can be replaced with similar offsets
Metal wheel nuts are encouraged
Aftermarket servo gears are OK

70 comp class :
AAA batteries with any 70 turn brush motor or any 3500 KV brushless motor.
Kyosho Hardbody only no Lexan bodies


Modified class: Any 2wd or 4wd
8.4 lipo pack or AAA batteries.
Open body: lexan body or hard body
Run what you brung and hold on tight

We will have one largest mini z track. 3 tiles wide and very flowy course. Will have a great driver stand to look over the top of the layout.

Top 3 finishers get trophies.



http://mini-zracer.com/forums/attach...3&d=1559677542
We will lay the RCP track over top this big carpet track. And we'll make the largest and fastest Mini z track..
Pit Area is big
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/attach...4&d=1559677575

EMU 2019.06.05 02:20 PM

Im looking forward to the event! Track looks huge, and lots of pit space...

tommy_greeneyes 2019.06.08 12:01 AM

Do not miss
 
This will be a race no other mini Z racer want to miss.

tommy_greeneyes 2019.06.14 01:52 PM

updated rules for boxstock class
 
update 2.0

I am going back to the way the rules we did at Hobbytown tom river NJ in box-stock class. after buying a new box stock car this gives them an option to there set up

Kyosho BoxStock Class

Brush or brushless car Kit are allowed

Kyosho chassis, no modifications

Stock electronics, stock FETS

Stock motors & PN 70t motors or any 3500kv brushless (PN,GL
TECH- 70 turn needs to have a 9 tooth pinion
3500kv motor can have a 10 tooth pinion
but you need to have the Kyosho stock gear diff

AAA rechargeable NiMH only

Kyosho bodies, (white bodies with paint or stickers are OK)
3d print wings are ok

Aftermarket front body mounts and reinforcements are OK

Kyosho tires or PN tires only

T-plate open

Front springs open

94 & 98mm bodies that can't fit the LM or MM2 mount can run a PN Multi Length Disk Damper with soft springs only
86 & 90mm bodies are open disk damper with stock motor mounts

Bearings are encouraged

Wheels can be replaced with similar offsets
Metal wheel nuts are encouraged
Aftermarket servo gears are OK

arch2b 2019.06.14 03:10 PM

I would attend if were not the same weekend as my son’s B-day.

Mike Keely 2019.06.16 09:01 PM

The V3 PN 3500 is way faster then the PN 70 turn motor with a 9 or 10 tooth pinion. I would say that the PN 3500 should run an 8 tooth pinion now.

EMU 2019.06.16 09:39 PM

Is this a motor thing, or an EVO issue? Does the EVO provide more top end than the older ESC? I had always run the PN 3500 V3 in my kyosho stock LM car before I swapped it over for superstock duty, and felt that my 70t car had more top end, but less power off the corner.

When i had raced with you in the hotel conference room, i switched to my brushed car simply because I had no straight speed. Is my PN V3 a dog motor, or is it the EVO electronics that are drastically increasing the performance of the motors? Are racers changing rotors, adjusting ESC timing settings? These are all things that can contribute considerably to performance. How do we tech this?

Perhaps the competitiveness in the kyosho stock class is outgrowing the spirit of the class, and its real purpose as an entry level sportsman style class. I don't want to make hard judgements, but the goal of such a class is that a racer can get up to speed with minimal changes to a stock RWD model car. If the bar is set to needing an EVO, 3500V3... then perhaps discussion and evaluation needs to be made on the structure of the class including the EVO... Perhaps those cars should be directed towards 70 comp and have the kyosho stock as a brushed only class to reduce headache of balancing the power?

Im not trying to jump the gun, but open discussion on the matter and see where everyone stands with it.

mleemor60 2019.06.17 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EMU (Post 468858)
Is this a motor thing, or an EVO issue? Does the EVO provide more top end than the older ESC? I had always run the PN 3500 V3 in my kyosho stock LM car before I swapped it over for superstock duty, and felt that my 70t car had more top end, but less power off the corner.

When i had raced with you in the hotel conference room, i switched to my brushed car simply because I had no straight speed. Is my PN V3 a dog motor, or is it the EVO electronics that are drastically increasing the performance of the motors? Are racers changing rotors, adjusting ESC timing settings? These are all things that can contribute considerably to performance. How do we tech this?

Perhaps the competitiveness in the kyosho stock class is outgrowing the spirit of the class, and its real purpose as an entry level sportsman style class. I don't want to make hard judgements, but the goal of such a class is that a racer can get up to speed with minimal changes to a stock RWD model car. If the bar is set to needing an EVO, 3500V3... then perhaps discussion and evaluation needs to be made on the structure of the class including the EVO... Perhaps those cars should be directed towards 70 comp and have the kyosho stock as a brushed only class to reduce headache of balancing the power?

Im not trying to jump the gun, but open discussion on the matter and see where everyone stands with it.



All good calls EMU. I can see no need to try to back door a class in order to improve performance just to make sales of a better part. This is exactly how 1/10th scale got out of control in the first place. Run the motors as manufactured. No changes. Period!! Aside from the fact that the VE motor is more reliable and requires much less maintenance there is no need to futz with it.

arch2b 2019.06.17 12:28 PM

You’ll never get back to brushed only class. It’s simply far to restrictive as the only for sale chassis that is brushed are sports left in the market and RWD FHSS and the legacy cars still in use, which is becoming fewer and fewer with each race i attend.

I have the EVO board in many cars and there is a noticeable gain in performance from the EVO board. My impetus for changing to EVO is driven by interoperability of brushed/brushless more than performance, but that’s just my motivation. It’s just my opinion but the EVO board is the genesis for the notable gains of the V3. Otherwise, like any other motor, you get good ones and bad ones. I’ve not had the best of luck in that regard with PN brushless motors. I find the V3 overall improved over previous versions but the GL3500 is stronger than earlier PN versions as well.

I would be OK with not including EVO electronics in stock class. I would have to tweak an existing ASF chassis to get back to stock but it’s understandable. I would honestly like to go back to stock motors as well but there simply isn’t support from the drivers to do so and all the regional clubs have bumped up to 70/3500 for stock complaining the stock motors burned up in anything more than 5 minute mains. As much as I like the box stock motor class, it would drive more away, than bring in. See also points made just below that contribute to the problem.

If a club is dealing with a large contingent of inexperienced drivers, a dedicated stock motor class would be helpful if, and it’s a big if, you could convince them that slower is better. That is and remains the biggest problem in the scale, everyone wants to go as fast or faster than they can reasonably control the car. The prevailing opinion is to go big and dial down speed vs. learning to drive at the full extent of a slower motor. I would imagine this is consistent problem at all scales however exacerbated with the 6” size of mini-z and generally smaller tracks on average.

There is no reasonable manner to tech all aspects of car now that you can tweak board and transmitter settings. You are never going to have that level of control and or ability to regulate unless you further restrict transmitters which no one wants to do either. Now that anyone with bluetooth phone and adapter practically, can adjust board ICS settings, there are simply too many variables to contend with.

I for one would like to see a pathway to get the Atomic, GL, Xpower cars in stock class as well as the same is no longer dominated by Kyosho and the term Mini-Z has simply become the general reference for the scale in the same manner that Velcro is what all hook and loop closures or fasteners are called, despite actually being a brand name.

EMU 2019.06.17 03:34 PM

You bring up quite a few good points. In general the scope of kyosho stock is targeted towards newer racers, to be able to get them on track and racing as quick and inexpensive as possible. In my mind, the goal of the class is not necessarily to be the primary focus class for competitive racing. With that said, the class generally makes really good racing because there are few opportunities to open the setup window or gain an equipment advantage over other racers. This seems to be changing a bit with the improvements made with the EVO.

The scope of my post is my view alone, and I do not speak for the rules of the race upcoming, but it may have influence in future events as we move forward. My personal opinion would be to have the kyosho stock class as an entry level sportsman class with no professional racers, as a development class per se... possibly keep it as a brushed only class? Or do away with it altogether, and have the cars run in the 70 comp class. The two classes being so close in performance, is a little redundant, however there are considerable differences in pace due to gearing restriction above all else. The mr03 chassis with only a disc damper and t-plate for upgrade has excellent cornering performance, that the real performance difference between 70 comp and kyosho stock comes down to the gearing restriction since just about everyone uses a disc damper in the class.

I have mixed feelings about the place of kyosho stock currently, as the discrepancy between gearing of brushless vs brushed motors varies between motor and electronics used. What is apparent, is that we cannot please everyone, but my general thought is that we should not be pushing the latest and greatest product as a necessity to run the class. It boils down to what can be set as the base standard to run the class, and when buy in becomes $350 for the entry level class, vs the $175 for the RTR, it makes me think that the scope of the class needs to be set towards the entry level drivers on entry level equipment.

Mike Keely 2019.06.17 09:48 PM

I think that stock has been pushed to the limit at our club. I have not won a box stock race in weeks. I may get one 6.9 second lap in a ten minute race while many of our guys are getting multiple 6.7 second laps. Tommy Bond is lapping me in a ten minute race. I need to build a new car next fall to compete with them in box stock.

I agree that these cars just need to be ran in a comp. class. That is not going to happen though. All the things that Ray said in his last post is the new norm for anyone that wants to be competitive in box stock.

mleemor60 2019.06.18 06:23 AM

"Key words", box stock!! Not intended to pick or criticize but failing eyesight and maybe reflexes and glasses have something to do with it as well. Will more motor make it better or just exacerbate the situation?

arch2b 2019.06.18 09:48 AM

No one is using the term ‘box’ stock... Box stock only works if there is sufficient numbers and dedication to the ‘slower’ class, neither of which are likely given my many years of working out of both basement clubs and retail stores. ‘Box’ stock classes are a fluke, not the norm. It may have worked had Kyosho not disappeared post 2004 race venues in NA and had not most hobby shops gone under post 2008.
I’ve covered this ground already regarding the multitude of issues a club has to contend with regarding it’s choice for stock class. Unless your running in a small group and all have the same kit or in a retail environment in which a store needs a class to ‘buy and race’, box stock days are long gone. As far as I know, Hobby Works Fairfax stock using the white End bell motor was the last run of truly ‘stock’ motor class. Even then, the overwhelming complaints of more than 5 minute races on stock motors and need to incorporate brushless muddied the waters to the point where were at now, 70t/3500 as the new ‘stock’. Hell, if you look at most other club rules, what is considered stock is more 70comp/mod for us.
The quandary boils down to how do you maintain a level of stock that keeps costs as low as possible while also allowing for the greater participation of the varied people and kits brought to compete? The logical answer we’ve reached is to limit changes to greatest extent practical and try to level the field with regard to motor/gearing to address the absolute mess Kyosho has made of their electronics across the lineup. This continues to completely ignore the 3rd party vendors whom are on pace to really surpass Kyosho with kit offerings which is to our own detriment as a scale. ‘Box’ stock as an answer only works in rare cases and limited venues. Everyone will get a good sense of this with the second coming of the Cup series with its strict limits on slower classes. I think most were not around for the initial run of the Cup series and experience has been lost. Anyone that manages a club will know the minute you make one exception to the rules it continues to erode the intent of the class and the more exceptions you make, the worse it gets. I don’t always like being the one to say no, but at times it has to be done to maintain the intent of the class and hope that it’s not seen as a slight or that i’ve Ignored or discarded opinions as that’s really not the case. I’ve at times really made some people very upset, to the point i’ve Had to block people and or they have left the club. It’s part of the headache and stress that comes with managing a venue that i believe most take for granted as they just show up, race and leave, while all the work behind the scene to make it happen and make it hopefully enjoyable is for the most part overlooked. Anyone who’s managed an event can attest to the amount of work involved behind the scene. It’s a great deal of work to make sure others have a good time. Now think about what has to go into picking and managing a set of classes all the while trying to maintain the integrity of those classes while at the same time not watch them fizzle out. It’s a game of chess really in which you have to think strategically and more long term view vs. immediate desire.
I’m not in favor of banning the experienced drivers from stock class either. I’ve seen what this does over time and the model for success that worked out Hobby Works included ‘experts’ as this demonstrates to all that a stock car is plenty capable of racing at a highly competitive level, which would otherwise be experienced as the ‘newb’ class that is predominantly looks down on and thought lesser of, meaning not equitable. I admit what worked at Hobby Works isn’t the answer for everyone, it simply worked for us in the space we had and complemented by the drivers we had. When you get the experts competing with (not misunderstood to mean against as they will practically speaking not end up in same mains) and assisting the new drivers, everyone wins. You also then have to define what ‘expert’ is. We all get a sense of who that may be but how do you quantify that in a measurable way? How is this equitable in limiting the ability of an expert to enjoy the simple pleasure of a simple class? I’ve often considered quitting all classes but stock and HFAY myself, still do today.

Lets also not forget there is another tool in the arsenal to control speed, the track ;). It is my opinion that the success of the stock class at Hobby Works was in part due to limiting the track size to HFAY size or slightly larger (less the 3 wide L). The track plays a huge roll in limiting the practical ability to utilize speeds and modified setups. Thankfully for us in this region, there are any number of places one can go to get that itch for larger layouts and faster pace tracks.

Apologies for my many references to Hobby Works as this has been my main push on stock class in a retail location. Now that i’m Back in another Hobby Works, will be re-evaluating the current rules however back to HFAY tracks.

mugler 2019.06.18 08:32 PM

My couple of cents in a great discussion. From the get go Box Stock class in any scale of RC racing has pursued 2 intentions 1) lowest cost Possible 2) least amount of maintenance & tuning needed which in turn shifts the balance of competition towards on the wheel & trigger driving skills rather than tuning skills. For this era of mini-z we are going through only RWD’s with original KT-531 radio falls in that category. As mentioned the cost of an EVO car + Rx + Body + Even a regular KT-531 + Kyosho brushed motor (needed for boxStock) + ICS cable ( to be able to switch EVO to brushed) is well over double the price of a RWD. Furthermore the far superior EVO’s ESC and not often mentioned superior holding power of the EVO’s servo with sophisticated adjustment capabilities eliminates it as fair competition for RWD’s.

The following has already been discussed so it’s just a repeat for those who might have not come across it yet but True bare bones box stock’s chassis performance is not considered hobby grade …the conversation starts with a Near Box Stock class ( NBS) allowing reversing the original pins / open tires ( but spec would be better with short K fronts -to eliminate need to true & tire testing) / open T-bar / open front Springs / Open any plastic Kyosho mount of any WB or configuration / Open any kyosho plastic or carbon fiber friction plates or discs that fit any of the plastic motor mounts / For sure keep the kyosho motor in there but maybe allow the AWD version also which has more torque…etc etc.

Also very important to have to all driver levels up to full expert/pro to participate in this class. One of THE most heart pumping & memorable races I participated in was back in 2010 box stock class at Kyosho Headquarters with all 6 drivers in the a-main finishing on the same lap !! Making signing up in NBS class mandatory before one can sign up for other classes or awarding bonus points in other classes for podium position finished in NBS class or making the NBS class the qualifying round for the other faster classes could be things to be considered to keep the experts & pros running NBS. If only Novice & sportsman drivers are to enter NBS then from the first time they put their car down on the rack the only possible goal they can have is to graduate to the faster classes when they improve which usually means they think hop ups will take them there which then disqualifies their car for the NBS class in a hurry…its pretty easy to believe that's a big part of what kills any box stock class that tries to stay afloat but can’t…that being the faster drivers around only want to run the faster classes.

TPDazzle 2019.06.19 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mugler (Post 468868)
My couple of cents in a great discussion. From the get go Box Stock class in any scale of RC racing has pursued 2 intentions 1) lowest cost Possible 2) least amount of maintenance & tuning needed which in turn shifts the balance of competition towards on the wheel & trigger driving skills rather than tuning skills. For this era of mini-z we are going through only RWD’s with original KT-531 radio falls in that category. As mentioned the cost of an EVO car + Rx + Body + Even a regular KT-531 + Kyosho brushed motor (needed for boxStock) + ICS cable ( to be able to switch EVO to brushed) is well over double the price of a RWD. Furthermore the far superior EVO’s ESC and not often mentioned superior holding power of the EVO’s servo with sophisticated adjustment capabilities eliminates it as fair competition for RWD’s.

The following has already been discussed so it’s just a repeat for those who might have not come across it yet but True bare bones box stock’s chassis performance is not considered hobby grade …the conversation starts with a Near Box Stock class ( NBS) allowing reversing the original pins / open tires ( but spec would be better with short K fronts -to eliminate need to true & tire testing) / open T-bar / open front Springs / Open any plastic Kyosho mount of any WB or configuration / Open any kyosho plastic or carbon fiber friction plates or discs that fit any of the plastic motor mounts / For sure keep the kyosho motor in there but maybe allow the AWD version also which has more torque…etc etc.

Also very important to have to all driver levels up to full expert/pro to participate in this class. One of THE most heart pumping & memorable races I participated in was back in 2010 box stock class at Kyosho Headquarters with all 6 drivers in the a-main finishing on the same lap !! Making signing up in NBS class mandatory before one can sign up for other classes or awarding bonus points in other classes for podium position finished in NBS class or making the NBS class the qualifying round for the other faster classes could be things to be considered to keep the experts & pros running NBS. If only Novice & sportsman drivers are to enter NBS then from the first time they put their car down on the rack the only possible goal they can have is to graduate to the faster classes when they improve which usually means they think hop ups will take them there which then disqualifies their car for the NBS class in a hurry…its pretty easy to believe that's a big part of what kills any box stock class that tries to stay afloat but can’t…that being the faster drivers around only want to run the faster classes.

I agree with Mugler's take on NBS class completely. Especially the part about all racers being required to sign up for NBS first, then whatever HFAY or modified class after. My club is basically garage racers that solely do HFAY, so we all have HFAY cars, but I keep a NBS car and KT 19 ( unfortunately I have a sports2 instead of the newer RWD) for my occasional trips to race with PDX. They used to have a similar rule, not sure if they still do. It seems this allows a fair and affordable entry point, while still allowing die-hards to spend lots of money on all the go-fast bits they want to.

EMU 2019.06.19 02:30 AM

I know in the larger scales, and to a certain extent this scale, there is a feeling that pro drivers should run modified and not run in the stock classes. In a sense, once drivers are considered pro level, there is a feeling that by running in stock theyare beating up average racers and taking the wins in the easier class rather than reaching in modified with the big boys... In this scale there are very few pro drivers, mostly because deals are not offered in a similar fashion to the larger scales. There are plenty of fast racers in this scale, and many have pro level driving ability despite not having a ride.

I race at a bunch of different locations, and there has been some feedback at some locations about the fast guys scaring away racers by running in the "box stock" class... I think it boils down to the idea that a chance for a win is taken off the table when they run the class, and racers want to have that opportunity to fight for a win.

While I can understand the idea of a sportsman class, and have mixed feelings that top drivers should be in modified, it is also a completely different skill set to drive modified vs stock. How the car is setup, and more importantly how the car is driven.

I generally prefer stock style driving, with more focus on momentum and keeping speed up through corners to make time. However, stock is also where more setup technique and focus on marginal gains from multiple angles combined can make a huge difference. When everything is held constant under a tight rule structure, is where marginal gains make even more of a difference. When you have unrestricted power, these marginal gains are not really needed as much, since you already have more power than you need, and it's more about how you can convert that power through the wheel into the track than trying to find more power and speed which is the primary focus of stock level racing.

In general when I would race bigger events, more preparation and refinement would go into my stock setups than modified, mostly because modified was much more driver focused as where stock would be more equipment focused because the track could take more speed than what the stock level power could give. In a sense, what Ray said above is very true, that the track is the primary constraint and can be the limit if designed properly...

In general in this scale, new racers want to go fast. Veterans often want to go slow (mostly because slower classes provide better racing). I have always enjoyed pro stock level racing the most. (48t/5500kv AAA or 2S 3500kv power level), mostly because it removes much of the need to search for power gains, as the power is often just above what the track can take, but not necessarily out of hand as modified is for most average racers.

I know that I am going on a few tangents here, which stray from the focus of this event thread, which I apologize for doing. I think in general, near box stock/ kyosho stock is one of the best classes for racing when done right. But, when the balance of power creeps to raise the bar where the scope of the class changes (existing practitioners cannot participate), something needs to be done about it.

arch2b 2019.06.19 06:23 AM

What was the topic of the thread again.... ;) :cool:

I do hope that this is well attended, sadly I cannot.

mugler 2019.06.19 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arch2b (Post 468873)
What was the topic of the thread again.... ;) :cool:

Point taken :p
What would be a good existing thread to move the Box stock conversation to? did a quick search didn't find anything specific, was going to start a new one named "Box Stock Class Discussions" under general discussions but figured to double check if there's one already.
Also would be great to have a section with separate threads for all existing and developing class discussions. box stock, stock, super stock, LM, F1 ( new GL F1 looks good!) Pan body, Mod, Nascar, 86mm, 90mm etc etc.
Sorry had to get off subject one more time:)

arch2b 2019.06.19 05:39 PM

Not my thread...

i can move any posts needed, just give me post counts and a destination. :cool:

mugler 2019.06.20 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arch2b (Post 468879)
Not my thread...

i can move any posts needed, just give me post counts and a destination. :cool:

PM sent :)

tommy_greeneyes 2019.06.22 04:00 PM

1 Attachment(s)
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/attach...1&d=1561237022


I will up date the rules for the 3 classes. even the changes in the box stock class

tommy_greeneyes 2019.06.23 05:09 AM

July 7 race
 
3 Attachment(s)
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/attach...1&d=1561284110

http://mini-zracer.com/forums/attach...1&d=1561284110

http://mini-zracer.com/forums/attach...1&d=1561284110


These will be the 3 classes we will be running July 7th.

1 Kyosho stock class
2 70 comp class
3 modified class

Trophies are going to top three finishers in A-mains.

There will be raffles given out per class you sign up to. For the gifts and prizes the sponsors given towards the race. Anyone can be the winner with some nice giveaways here. Food will also include your entry fee.

$20 first class
$10 second class

There will be a live feed of the race.


RC Car World
4340 N Route 130, Willingboro, New Jersey 08046

egonzalez 2019.06.24 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EMU (Post 468870)
I know in the larger scales, and to a certain extent this scale, there is a feeling that pro drivers should run modified and not run in the stock classes. In a sense, once drivers are considered pro level, there is a feeling that by running in stock theyare beating up average racers and taking the wins in the easier class rather than reaching in modified with the big boys... In this scale there are very few pro drivers, mostly because deals are not offered in a similar fashion to the larger scales. There are plenty of fast racers in this scale, and many have pro level driving ability despite not having a ride.

I race at a bunch of different locations, and there has been some feedback at some locations about the fast guys scaring away racers by running in the "box stock" class... I think it boils down to the idea that a chance for a win is taken off the table when they run the class, and racers want to have that opportunity to fight for a win.

While I can understand the idea of a sportsman class, and have mixed feelings that top drivers should be in modified, it is also a completely different skill set to drive modified vs stock. How the car is setup, and more importantly how the car is driven.

I generally prefer stock style driving, with more focus on momentum and keeping speed up through corners to make time. However, stock is also where more setup technique and focus on marginal gains from multiple angles combined can make a huge difference. When everything is held constant under a tight rule structure, is where marginal gains make even more of a difference. When you have unrestricted power, these marginal gains are not really needed as much, since you already have more power than you need, and it's more about how you can convert that power through the wheel into the track than trying to find more power and speed which is the primary focus of stock level racing.

In general when I would race bigger events, more preparation and refinement would go into my stock setups than modified, mostly because modified was much more driver focused as where stock would be more equipment focused because the track could take more speed than what the stock level power could give. In a sense, what Ray said above is very true, that the track is the primary constraint and can be the limit if designed properly...

In general in this scale, new racers want to go fast. Veterans often want to go slow (mostly because slower classes provide better racing). I have always enjoyed pro stock level racing the most. (48t/5500kv AAA or 2S 3500kv power level), mostly because it removes much of the need to search for power gains, as the power is often just above what the track can take, but not necessarily out of hand as modified is for most average racers.

I know that I am going on a few tangents here, which stray from the focus of this event thread, which I apologize for doing. I think in general, near box stock/ kyosho stock is one of the best classes for racing when done right. But, when the balance of power creeps to raise the bar where the scope of the class changes (existing practitioners cannot participate), something needs to be done about it.

I agree with EMU. I would just add, keep the just stock class with no pro drivers. Have some way to vet when a new driver can jump from just stock to pro stock. Exp. X number of laps or winning their A main 3 weeks in a row. (Hard to do with the dwindling numbers in 1/28 scale) I still can't believe this scale is still using AAA's and brushed motors. LOL In my years of racing, the stock class or restrictions on a specific class (motor, gearing, batteries, etc) has never been about saving money or making the racing more competitive. These rules/restrictions just give certain drivers a false belief that they have a better chance of winning if the playing field was more level or slower. The truth is, better drivers/tuners will still find a way to the top of their A-mains.


Good Luck to ALL, This seems like a great event.

arch2b 2019.06.24 12:48 PM

I agree to respectfully disagree :p:cool: I don’t think we will ever get to a sanctioned rules set in this scale. Please do not exclude top drivers from stock. I’d rather the come close and loose to a top driver myself, pushes me to be better but as noted, everyone is different and seeks/gets something different out of it. I’d rather chase the top than lead the bottom. It’s a matter of perspective and perspective is subjective to the viewer.

mugler 2019.06.24 02:06 PM

Box Stock Class Discussion above has been moved to it's own thread HERE :)

egonzalez 2019.06.24 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mugler (Post 469088)
Box Stock Class Discussion above has been moved to it's own thread HERE :)


Thanks ;)

tommy_greeneyes 2019.06.25 12:01 AM

Update on July 7th race
 
The past 6 months. New people have gotten involved in the hobby. People that have gotten a new box stock car out of the box. controller and car. This Kyosho stock classes for them. We have a 2nd stock class where you can run on 3500 KV or a 70 turn PN motor. And AAA.That's the premier stock class we all run locally and National. Even I stop racing box stock class. You have to give the new people the opportunity to do well and learned. By running this race new people will learn from the pros and and make new friends. After July 7th race box stock class will go away. And we have two new classes coming.

We are looking to have Saturday practice if Racers are coming for Sunday.

After July 7th summer shootout race. I have a newer class structure and there are other classes out there. I build my rules towards my track.


Thanks edel I really miss seeing you at the track you should come out this fall when you're free

EMU 2019.06.25 03:10 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Edel, we run AAA brushed mostly in the entry level class. The less restrictive competitive stock uses mostly brushless 3500kv motors, but still AAA. For stock racing, lipo is too fast so AAA is still the standard for stock.

In modified, lipo and brushless is very common now. I don't know if you have kept up to date with some of the chassis offerings on the market, but there are more options now than even a couple years ago. I have been running the GL RACING GLR, and like it. It is a mini pan car essentially.

http://mini-zracer.com/forums/attach...1&d=1561450206

arch2b 2019.06.25 06:39 AM

I look forward to seeing what you guys are doing with classes and what’s coming!

egonzalez 2019.06.25 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EMU (Post 469103)
Edel, we run AAA brushed mostly in the entry level class. The less restrictive competitive stock uses mostly brushless 3500kv motors, but still AAA. For stock racing, lipo is too fast so AAA is still the standard for stock.

In modified, lipo and brushless is very common now. I don't know if you have kept up to date with some of the chassis offerings on the market, but there are more options now than even a couple years ago. I have been running the GL RACING GLR, and like it. It is a mini pan car essentially.

http://mini-zracer.com/forums/attach...1&d=1561450206

Thanks for the update.. Looks like a nice car.

mugler 2019.06.25 04:19 PM

In a few full fledged competitive stock class races ( so not entry level) we experimented with running 3500 lipo at 54/8 gearing alongside AAA nimh open geared 70/3500 power plants ...its worth a try by any venue running this class to see how it pans out at the end as we didnt have the chance to get equally skilled drivers behind both platforms...our results were even though the top speed of the open geared nimh cars were clearly higher, the lipo car still took care of business handily due to much higher punch out of corners (also more experienced driver) , but anyway that maybe one way to bring the pan cars into competitive stock class racing.

EMU 2019.06.25 05:08 PM

I am quite reluctant to run 2S in anything called stock... even with a gearing limitation, it creates too much gray area to consider. It is also highly layout dependent.

In my shakedown of my superstock car with lipo at brooklyn hobbies, I couldn't keep up to the pace of most of the drivers, and they are on a small circuit. I had 10/53 gearing, and they just walked away on the straight and i couldn't close the gap. The majority of corners on that circuit are ones where you roll through the corner and are reducing radius corners with only one real acceleration zone... it is also a field of really fast drivers.

In due time, I think there will be space for a 2S 3500kv class... but I don't think we are the yet.

mugler 2019.06.25 05:32 PM

I get what you're saying about the grey area... I'm hoping some venue could conclude the testing we kinda started at our track but couldn't conclude :p it will take a field of closely skilled drivers running a whole bunch of races for a while with those two platforms on the track to see if there is or isn't any parity.

Im not sure if i understand your 2nd paragraph clearly..are you saying the 5500 open geard nimh cars were faster than your 53/10 3500 lipo car in SS class? we did conclude the testing combining those two platforms in SS (open gearing for both platforms allowed) ended us up in super close competition, the lipo 3500 cars settled on 53/12 and the 5500 nimh 53/10-11...the track was larger so the nimh car had a chance to utilize its top end power band.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EMU (Post 469111)
In due time, I think there will be space for a 2S 3500kv class... but I don't think we are the yet.

I think even now 3500/lipo at 54/8 gearing cars by themselves will make for a very nice parallel to nimh stock class speedwise speaking.

EMU 2019.06.25 06:25 PM

I was testing my SS car during a race session practice. They only run open gear stock at the track, no SS. The car was a couple tenths off the pace of the stock cars in a 14x7 tile track with 1.5 tile lane width.

Figuring out BOP is not easy, and takes quite a few sessions and layouts to get it right as you pointed out...

mugler 2019.06.25 07:52 PM

Oh I see & not sure what's going on there...I think a 2s/3500 car geared rightshould take care of a any stock car on any gearing..given the tiny dimensions of the track I think 54/8 (13.5 or 12.5 rotor is fine) is the way to go even though this will produce a big drag brake effect which i know its not your preferred style of driving.

tommy_greeneyes 2019.06.25 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EMU (Post 469103)
Edel, we run AAA brushed mostly in the entry level class. The less restrictive competitive stock uses mostly brushless 3500kv motors, but still AAA. For stock racing, lipo is too fast so AAA is still the standard for stock.

In modified, lipo and brushless is very common now. I don't know if you have kept up to date with some of the chassis offerings on the market, but there are more options now than even a couple years ago. I have been running the GL RACING GLR, and like it. It is a mini pan car essentially.

http://mini-zracer.com/forums/attach...1&d=1561450206

Be careful Eugene. Edel has an awesome xpower car that is still competitive. It would be nice to see him in the future racing again with us. Hopefully this winner or fall season he's welcome the Comedown RC car world. Between edel and Roland they are the ones to reckon with in modify the class. We just need Maj to come back to.

tommy_greeneyes 2019.06.27 06:45 AM

Saturday practice
 
1 Attachment(s)
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/attach...1&d=1561635823In 10 days we will have our Summer Shootout mini z trophy race July 7th. The track will be open for practice Saturday 10am -8pm. You will get the opportunity to get your set up right on the largest mini z track in the East Coast. We will have mini z racers from New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania and Maryland. There will be practice that Sunday morning of the race.There will be practice that Sunday morning of the race.10am -11:45am first qualifier will go off at 12:00pm

egonzalez 2019.06.27 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommy_greeneyes (Post 469117)
Be careful Eugene. Edel has an awesome xpower car that is still competitive. It would be nice to see him in the future racing again with us. Hopefully this winner or fall season he's welcome the Comedown RC car world. Between edel and Roland they are the ones to reckon with in modify the class. We just need Maj to come back to.


Hey Tommy,

I might surprise you one of these weekends. My son has a baseball tournament on Sunday and I won't be able to make this race. Good Luck

art4242 2019.06.27 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mugler (Post 469116)
Oh I see & not sure what's going on there...I think a 2s/3500 car geared rightshould take care of a any stock car on any gearing..given the tiny dimensions of the track I think 54/8 (13.5 or 12.5 rotor is fine) is the way to go even though this will produce a big drag brake effect which i know its not your preferred style of driving.


Yeah, a 2s 3500kV lithium car should be pretty darn quick, I can't image a NiMH 5500kv with any gearing able to keep up. We run our "Super Stock" class as lithium 2s 3500kV with 54/13 or 54/14 gearing. Times for the top drivers are only 0.1-0.2s off the full modified times on a 20x12 tile track, and some are faster than mod as well. There's still an advantage with the full mod cars down the back straight, but in the infield it's close.

When geared down to 54/9 on a small HFAY layout the lithium 3500kv still felt a bit more powerful than the nimh 5500 at the same gearing, the lithium felt like it had more torque.

tommy_greeneyes 2019.06.27 11:57 PM

Edel.👍
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by egonzalez (Post 469131)
Hey Tommy,

I might surprise you one of these weekends. My son has a baseball tournament on Sunday and I won't be able to make this race. Good Luck

Thanks buddy. Keep a lookout for the next big race August 18th weekend. Yeah I'm keeping mini z racing alive. Have big plans and RC car world can't announce on yet.


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