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Old 2009.03.31, 11:03 AM   #61
hrdrvr
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I wish I could edit. Arch snuck in on me on the last reply. It was intended to reply to this quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gofast View Post
Hi Landon,

Sorry for pointing out the obvious. This last sentence is already true as of now in stock or mod anyway.
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Old 2009.03.31, 11:56 AM   #62
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I will be trying it out on my Mod Car first, if I like it I'll probably put it on my stock car as well.

I'd say that is should be the drivers choice to run items like this. Just my opinion.
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Old 2009.03.31, 01:41 PM   #63
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If this front end is worth .3ths as stated earlier, why WOULDN'T you run it?? Have most of you every driven and setup a 1/10th car? camber links and roll center can transform your car, what we run on the mini-z is like 1920's front suspension Personally I end up buying stuff that's proven to be fast, but when I'm trying to get others excited about the class, I like being able to tell them that they can get into afforadably and if they like and want to go all out, that's an option as well.

We really don't even need an asc anymore, your tearing off the front/rear, of the car left with a plastic shell, the pcb board is really the only necessary kyosho device.

I am patiently waiting cristian's testing as he seems very thorough and fair.
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Old 2009.03.31, 01:45 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arch2b View Post
i think this entire arguement really only suite a small percentage of mini-zracers. i argue that a majority of us are in club racing with our own rules and travel little to other events which all have thier own rules.

i think for a majority of us out there, this part would be a huge expense for little gain. it's been my experience that the best guys have beaten me with less sophisticated cars in terms or retail upgrades.

as we do not have broad based rules system, let each decide thier own fate. if i had $80 i would buy it. i don't for a second think it would make me any faster rather give me yet more parts to tinker with.

experienced drivers should be doing more to tutor those less skilled to be more particular with thier upgrades. instead, we get the atmosphere that you can spend your way to a good car which is counter productive. no amount of money or parts will make up for practicing consistency and clean lines.
Good points. By the way, I appreciate PN coming out with such a revolutionary product. That's all progress for this cool scale! I will eventually get one or a few myself (for my mod cars).

My argument for stock class is that it should be about driving skills. If there are hop ups then everyone should use the same hop ups. For example, the PN 70T. The obvious logic is that these hop ups won't cause the racers to think twice about their participation. Also, the idea is not to tempt the racers to think they can have an advantage because they can spend more money on their cars. It's a different story on mod or open class though.
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Old 2009.03.31, 02:32 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gofast View Post
Good points. By the way, I appreciate PN coming out with such a revolutionary product. That's all progress for this cool scale! I will eventually get one or a few myself (for my mod cars).

My argument for stock class is that it should be about driving skills. If there are hop ups then everyone should use the same hop ups. For example, the PN 70T. The obvious logic is that these hop ups won't cause the racers to think twice about their participation. Also, the idea is not to tempt the racers to think they can have an advantage because they can spend more money on their cars. It's a different story on mod or open class though.
The same could be said for Modified Class. Say I want to run modified, but can't afford all the goodies, should everyone have to conform to what I'm able to do? I wouldn't expect so... Stock should be the same.

the direction that the rules have gone in the last year is to open up the car, and keep the limiting factor at the motor. Even stacked fets are legal for most stock class racing now. you can't tell me that that alone doesn't equate to .3 on even a car with no other upgrades.

even if you were to run stock, and setup 5 cars the exact same, say a "hand out" car for the class. people would still complain about something. Event if they used the same everything including motors, one would still be quicker than another. The slowest (speed) car would still loose to the Fastest (speed) car with the better driver. in the end it comes down to skill and how much time a person puts in on the track.
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Old 2009.03.31, 02:52 PM   #66
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Hi Gentlemen
Why focusing in race events only, and go to a never end argument & headache? I will bet that only a much reduced fraction of those of us that own a mini-z will participate in a so call Pro race event. There is a larger piece of the pie that owns these mini cars and run them for fun. They too are considered by manufactures when they decide to invest in the research, design & final production of a new part.
We hum are into this class as a hobby, perhaps represent a mayor revenue to the manufacturers, as we want and consume as mush improvement new tech parts as those that are into this for events racing or as an mortification (pain in the neck) than a hobby, perchance more, maybe not individually but as a group.
So my supports goes out to any manufacturer or any one that comes out with real solutions to our needs in the quest to make this hobby more interesting, more passionate , more realistic and more relaxing, as well as, advance into new & better teach, in line to accomplish a more fun thing to get involved.
Excellent job PN!!! I in fact appreciate your effort, only hope you donít forget about the 4WDs.
Cheers
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Old 2009.03.31, 02:59 PM   #67
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If any upgrade makes 3 tenths of a second difference per lap, then you were doing something wrong before, A front suspension is just one of many things that can be adjusted on a car, and one of the things we NEVER adjust at Reflex. Always run .6mm of downstop and PN White Springs, PERIOD. The only thing we ever really change is our front tires. Look at what that has done for us over the years

Once I have some of the testing done I will write down my impressions. Basically what I am looking from this is a car that should be easier to drive fast (as my cars are already extremely fast and easy to drive) add to the fact that I have probably the best Mini-Z driver in the World right now in Jacob F testing with me, we will get to the bottom of it
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Old 2009.03.31, 03:16 PM   #68
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Richard, you are right in saying that a lot of people will not attend major events, but a lot of people that frequent these forums race on a regular basis. Their concern is valid, just not able to be monitored. I always tell people that you do not need EVERY Part to be competitive. Heck, I have argued with you over time on how the SAS is not necessary, as it is slower and cost a pretty penny.

A lot of people race this scale because of the price point. If we start pricing ourselves really high a-la 1/10th scale electric and Nitro On-Road, our momentum will die off and see Mini-Z as just another expensive form of racing. That's why one of our goals at Reflex is being cost effective and higher performance, in order to keep the spirit of the scale (avid bearings, delrin out-drives, 3Racing parts on our cars are a perfect example of this). We have proved over and over again that the most expensive, complex car is not the quickest.

We also all need to not allow ourselves be misled by the way something looks, rather than the way it performs. I try to maintain my objectivity because it is a very delicate subject as a brand owner and large supporter of PN Racing and their competitions (PNWC).

As business owners, you have to hear everyone's points, but also through experience know what to identify what is valid and what is not. Yes this upgrade is a bit expensive, but if you were to add all the parts by themselves, you would end up spending the same or more. My argument is to say that all these parts (whether they are on a regular front end or a PN new front end) are not necessary to win. The cost to benefit factor, I can guarantee is low, but this varies from person to person as well (based on resources $$$ and desire). Bottom line is though is this front end going to make your car drive itself and avoid collisions and teach you throttle control and the right tire combination (which will make a bigger difference than anything else) then the answer is no.
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Old 2009.03.31, 04:17 PM   #69
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Hi Cristian
If I see it as a race driver, I totally agree with your well put statement, but if I see it with the eyes of a hobbyist, may opinion varies, these two points of views are like water and oil, as a hobbyist for fun and entertainment as many, many others, I want my car to look as realistic and nice as it can, not living out performance, sure. As you know some guys here have docents of bodies as a collection too.
Basically as you know and have mentioned, the real performance is in the skills of the pilot, there is no up-grade that can beat this. Perhaps if you provide me with your best car and I give you my 208g tank full of nice alum parts and we go to the track, perchance youíre fine skills will take me over and over. Thatís a fact, but we all have to keep in mind (I suggest) that this is a hobby and collaboration partnership, respect and fun are too part of the game. For many years I have been involve in the RC hobby as entertainment and team driver for many brands and never had experienced a group of gentlemen that argue so much about something that in fact is good for us. Sometimes if you read closely, we are arguing or defending our points of view, in different words but at the end of the line we are saying the same thing.
This is just my humble opinion thru my observation, sometimes arguments go so hot that we forget want is this really all about, living out those that appreciate this hobby for what it is, an entertainment for dissipation & fun plus making new good friends, even if we never see their faces.
Cheers
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Old 2009.03.31, 04:49 PM   #70
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Again, I agree with what you are saying. I am just trying to address the concerns of my end users, which 9 out of 10 times are also racers. I am all for innovation, but raising the price for COMPETITION, not hobbyists is never a good avenue to go down, especially in the current state of our economy.

There are different ways to look at the cost as well, but essentially the main point is that people will always have unlimited wants and limited resources. Our job as experts is to guide them down the right path so that they can invest their hard earned money wisely and so that they get the most for their dollars (however many that may be). One of the reasons I race Mini-Z and have become active in the industry was the affordability of the scale, if I had been able to afford 1/10th scale equipment while in College, you might see me now at the Snowbird Nationals or Reedy race racing touring cars instead.

Hobbyists are not as concerned with performance. They want "bling" and they want cool. If they can afford it, they buy it, if they can't, they won't. Racers think differently though, and I am just trying to lend an ear to them and explain that "hey, you don't need all the parts in the world to win, just the essentials, a little bit of mechanical skill and practice, practice, practice."
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Old 2009.03.31, 04:58 PM   #71
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Old 2009.03.31, 05:15 PM   #72
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Lies. That whole page is FULL of lies...

I only finished 3 laps back from Philip in Mini Sport. With a MINI.
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Old 2009.03.31, 06:02 PM   #73
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Lies. That whole page is FULL of lies...

I only finished 3 laps back from Philip in Mini Sport. With a MINI.
Come to think of it, might have been during the qualification rounds when you announced Phil was couple of laps ahead. I was busy racing, and thought you said something to that effect. Have not been able to find the actual results posted anywhere. Don't believe everything you read on a web page
Anyway, you did do very good with a true mini car. It was pretty amazing how well it performed.
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Old 2009.03.31, 06:05 PM   #74
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You guys did GOOD on that mount... Speaking of which, I need to finish writing that story...
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Old 2009.03.31, 06:14 PM   #75
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Hi there,

I am with the mini-z the first time I saw them around 9 years ago.
I never managed to learn really driving because hobbytime is very short.
It's not important for me.

Anyway, I will buy this nicely done part but not now. Maybe next year or when there is a chance to get it cheaper. I will never ever drive faster with this. This is exactly the same with the SAS but this stuff is making the toy looking more like a real car.

That's what I like.

What I don't like are endless discussions about rules. Talking the fun away.

In my opinion stock is stock...maybe tires...maybe Fets because most of us have them already in. That's it.
Motor will be choosen by lot direct before race all the same class, something slow.
The best driver will win this race no discussions.
The other class is:"Do what your valet or sponsor can"
But this is not my world so do what you want.

I am just wondering - the first thread I read about it was stolen from a really nice self built front suspensions.
Here, where I was expecting to see a lot of pictures of installed suspensions of single parts and so on, the invention plays a minor rule.
Regulation and prices?

O.K. it is too expensive of course.
5$ and free shipping to my place is enough
Silver please, I hate blue, orange, green, violet non sense. That is Pipi Langstrumpf eeeh Longstocking

What I am wondering more about reliability.
Is it strong enough? How long will it work nicely without problems under normal circumstances.

Give me pictures, give me input about the product

All the best and have fun with your hobby,

Knacki
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