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Old 2020.02.12, 06:44 PM   #1
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A conversation on what board swapping means Stock class racing

A club racer forwarded this to me, someone board swapped an MR-02 to convert to Sanwa, still using 4 AAA and Kyosho servo.

The question at this point is, does board swapping while maintaining the Kyosho servo and 4 AAA power remain a relative 'stock' car? Given Kyosho's multitude of board options available in current availability, it would seem unless the Sanwa board through put heaps more power to the motor, it remains true to a stock car in the sense that it maintains stock steering, stock power capacity and really only changes the PCB. I would argue that it should also keep the power switch...

Do board swaps like this and similar PN PCB replacements negate the notion of remaining 'stock' just because it isn't a Kyosho board? I'm inclined to debate that Kyosho no longer maintains a hold on what it means to be stock given the shear volume of development of board systems for this scale and well, the shear volume of board systems Kyosho itself has put out.

Last edited by arch2b; 2020.02.12 at 06:55 PM.
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Old 2020.02.13, 10:01 PM   #2
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Depends on how literally you take the term "Stock"
Any changes to the chassis means it's no longer stock.
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Old 2020.02.14, 10:05 AM   #3
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You can swap boards now for ‘stock’ class, some conversions require replacement/additional parts in the process.

The argument being you could consider this chassis to still be stock, albeit with some clearancing/hole for wire management. The board still draws power from the same chassis wire configuration, the servo is still driven from same wire configuration (to different component but same wire count). The switch in this case should remain in same wiring configuration. In this particular case, a part of the controls board site outside the dedicated zone for PCB and cable management from servo is modified, a bit un-necessarily in my opinion.

I’ve never done this myself but with the increase number of electronic options from Kyosho and more options in similar formats from others, there is no reasonable distinction yet made on what is generally considered ‘stock’. This presumes ‘stock’ does not specifically require Kyosho electronics as shipped from factory and that alternate manufacturers in similar format/installation while maintaining current Kyosho wiring configuration to power/switch/servo are maintained.

This is all hypothetical, meant to create a dialog that extends beyond Kyosho as it were as the basis for determining what is ‘stock’. The Kyosho chassis format/power/servo would remain basis for stock, however electronics would be open provided can accommodate the prior requirements.
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Old 2020.02.14, 10:04 PM   #4
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You also need to understand that the wiring on the kyosho is a limiting factor. A lot of people bypass the switch or change out the wiring to get more power to the motor. How do you police that?
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Old 2020.02.14, 10:48 PM   #5
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By maintaining power wiring remain in stock configuration as noted earlier (keep the switch). The science types have also explained that eliminating the switch provides insignificant gain. None the less, I would argue that it should remain. It's rather easy to tell if the switch is first present and second, functional.
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Old 2020.02.14, 11:00 PM   #6
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Imagine if you will, the Kyosho main chassis tub, whatever platform that may be, is simply a platform similar to the PN2.5W. Wiring, power, steering all prescribed with exception of what control board is placed on the chassis. Most 'stock' classes don't dictate a specific Kyosho chassis and that falls to the driver to select. One could for example run an MR-01, MR-015, MR-02, MR-03, MA-010, MA-020 or MA-030. all have impact to overall performance. From the MR-01 to the MR-03 there are AM, I-series, AD-Band, two variants of ASF, MHS, FHS and FHSS systems. That in itself is presents a significant number of variantions/combinations as many of the boards are direct swaps. If, for arguments sake, you discount Kyosho as the limitation to boards (clones of these are already available and in use), you can see how swapping in others is not really different provided some basic stuff is outlined regarding wiring, batteries, steering, etc. as basis of design for 'stock' and flavor of system is the variable (as it already is, albeit from single manufacturer).
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Old 2020.02.16, 12:09 PM   #7
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It really depends on what you are after. In real racing, there's spec classes where everyone runs the same spec and prepared hardware. Miata Cup is one example.

As you open up more options, there will be more ways to take advantage. There's always some one that will do whatever it takes to gain the advantage, perceived or real.

An example would be soldering the motor wire direcly to the ESC. Changing the gauge and type of wire. changing FETs, tweaking motor timing. Where is the line and who would police it?
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Old 2020.02.16, 01:13 PM   #8
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Legitimate points, all of them.
However;
class racing isn't the same thing as spec racing. real racing doesn't require spec racing to the same degree of exactness. there are many examples of class racing that don't require everyone to have the exact same spec equipment. spec racing is simply one form of racing, not one that many do at this scale unless your running 'box stock' of the same exact type and VERY few places left that have that kind of program outside of the Kyosho Cup, which is a manufacturer cup.

regarding someone intentionally pushing the limits for every advantage, that happens regardless of the spec/class. To think otherwise is simply not accepting the reality of the situation. There are always persons willing to do so for whatever reason. The odds of that happening in a 3 person club running HFAY or mini96 challenge are less however not zero. the real issue becomes, how far do you take teching/policing that effort? Do you have someone break down cars after each main like they did in in Kyosho cup circa 2004? Not really practical or realistic for a multitude of reasons outside a dedicated scheduled event. Do you seal motors with ceramic paint like some points series managers have in the past? Not unrealistic and not entirely difficult to do and manager however not entirely fullproof either and only effective if a large portion of the rules deal with specific motors. Do you have someone go by and in general inquire about the cars and taking a look to spot inconsistencies, irregularities and assume honorable actors such as HFAY? It's certainly the most reasonable choice but relies on assumptions to some degree that they know and or believe everyone are honorable actors. There aren't sanctioned bodies dedicated to inspections at this scale, nor the reasonable expectation that this is done to such a degree. at this scale, it assumes an inherent level of risk for cheaters as your not going to catch everything and at the same time not everyone acts honorably. is the expectation not inline with reasonable effort to contend with the issue is the crux of that argument and one every race organizer has to deal with and I've not had anyone break down a car for post main inspections since 2003-4 Kyosho cup.

changing fets for example has long ago been accepted as there is no effective means to police it. Kyosho itself uses different fets and in different quantities on some boards. lock down on fets existed for a short while in the very early days of racing when policing it was simply looking for stacks, etc. now, you can still look for stacks and rules should exclude stacking but don't exclude fet replacement.
what you do then is take the argument to the nth degree which breaks down its rational order presuming there is nothing in the middle and an all sum game. in which case, you make no reasonable progress as your focusing on the minutia, that of which are innumerable.

the line as it were has already been drawn for sake of argument. maintain stock wiring configuration /power/steering configuration (from and to power sources/switch, wiring to motors/steering). This assume any wiring done will be to similar gauge; in same configuration from chassis, to switch, to steering; same available power source; same steering; connection to motor, etc. variation in boards already exists in the manufacturer lineup. variation already exists in fet type and quantity within the manufacturer lineup. variation already exists in wire gauge (power/servo/motor leads, etc.) within the manufacturer lineup. I don't believe it would be reasonable to expect exactness in wire gauge matching as it becomes technically impractical to dictate and challenging to require, for anyone having replaced servo wires as an example. this points to the 'within reason and reasonable expectation' of compliance as otherwise your rule book reads like an Owners manual with no real expectation for practical policing it.

The gist of your complaint, and I totally agree with it, becomes, the more broad the stroke you paint, the greater need for reasonable expectation for compliance and policing. how does this get resolved in a reasonable and effective manner without at the same time becoming over burdensome to the facility/management and drivers. This topic alone could be a whole discussion in itself as currently, all major formal rule/formatted events (Kyosho Cup/PN Worlds, HFAY, etc.) have their own particular way of doing so.
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Old 2020.02.16, 07:22 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arch2b View Post
A club racer forwarded this to me, someone board swapped an MR-02 to convert to Sanwa, still using 4 AAA and Kyosho servo.

The question at this point is, does board swapping while maintaining the Kyosho servo and 4 AAA power remain a relative 'stock' car? Given Kyosho's multitude of board options available in current availability, it would seem unless the Sanwa board through put heaps more power to the motor, it remains true to a stock car in the sense that it maintains stock steering, stock power capacity and really only changes the PCB. I would argue that it should also keep the power switch...

Do board swaps like this and similar PN PCB replacements negate the notion of remaining 'stock' just because it isn't a Kyosho board? I'm inclined to debate that Kyosho no longer maintains a hold on what it means to be stock given the shear volume of development of board systems for this scale and well, the shear volume of board systems Kyosho itself has put out.
BLUF-Motor, voltage, Autoscale. HFAY did this for years, 70 turn PN or Stock K motor. Always was AAA NiMh voltage. Only Autoscale or hard bodies.

In the early beginnings of HFAY there really wasn't any other electronics or chassis options that could do that easily. PN is the only chassis that's aftermarket stand alone that could take 4 aaa's and use a Kyosho Autoscale.

What we don't see today is chassis built to fit those three factors that use 4.8v NiMh packs to reduce weight. We don't see stand alone brushed boards for the PN chassis or any other chassis except the Jomurema.

Let's just face it, Kyosho has the best bang for the buck chassis for stock class racing.

Kris
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Old 2020.02.17, 09:13 PM   #10
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Here's the issue I have.

I will not mention names and place.

We had an end of season race with prizes given out. It was supposed to be a stock class race. Two people were running cars that seemed too fast and it was noticed that they were running PN 3500 KV v3 motors with metal mounts and suspensions. They won and received prizes even though it was pointed out to a few of the other racers and workers at the store.


When asked why they raced in stock class, their answer was that they didn't have stock cars. Another member didn't have a stock car either but he used a loaner car to do the race.

Rules don't work unless there is a way to enforce it. The honor system doesn't work unless something is done when an issue is brought up.

It sucks to be the one pointing the finger at another racer and if the person is wrong about it, it causes hard feelings. It's worst when it is so blatant that almost everyone notices and nothing is done about it.
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Old 2020.02.17, 10:31 PM   #11
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Not sure what this has to do with boards but i get the point and believe I've addressed the very same issue with regards to concern for reasonable ability to manage/police but feel the context of the issue is a bit misplaced and overgeneralizing when applying that to a broader sense of what is and what isn't stock in the context of the topic being discussed.

Under the circumstances noted, what was stock at one place is not the same at another. likewise, i do not believe anyone feels it was not done with malicious intent or purposeful gain.
If you will, also put yourself in a race managers position. on average, less than half of the other drivers are gracious enough to help out at any given time. you have one if not more cars to setup of your own, keep a handful of others on key, answer what feels like a constant barrage of questions, key up the next group so you can keep it all moving at somewhat reasonable pace, make sure things are recording what they should, the PC is doing what it should, drivers are doing what they should and at the same time cars doing what they should as well as marshalling. all of this while attempting to do your best to simply enjoy the day yourself. I can tell you very plainly that it's a lot to manage/multitask. It almost never goes 100% right as transponders are missing, left out, wrong transponder used after already registering, timing system dropping laps for what could be any number of reasons, drivers changing cars, forgetting to change transponders, not having batteries ready, last minute repairs, etc, etc, etc. Not trying to make excuses but keep in mind that there are always circumstances beyond reasonable control and context is everything. in the event mentioned, the prizes were given away at the store owners discretion and was not planned as a prize race. the owner simply had bonus items to share with the patrons and most were not related to mini-z. to further the point, last race of the year, late in the afternoon so everyone keyed up to packup and get out. It wasn't a points race, not a scheduled 'event', nothing in it except for the fun and unplanned/unstructured prizes. I would have preferred a raffle but it was done the way it was done with less planning than should have been, admittedly.
Lets be real here, your not going to go up to someone and ask for a token gift back given from someone with no connection to the race itself, because at the last fun race of the year, someone who will very seldom if ever return, managed to get a non-complaint car around ahead of others. imagine if you will that did occur, what then do you think the repercussions would have been as people are packing up to leave after what is essentially a race for fun, no points, no trophy, and token prizes handed out by others at their discretion. i mention context as when you examine the issue in context, it seems insignificant to spend time and energy getting upset with others at the very end of a race day, at the last race of the year, over what is essentially a party race to ring out the year. suffice to say it will not happen that way again. happy to discuss this further if needed offline but completely willing to do so with full transparency and feel this can be simply discussed as noted within a fuller conversation on what is reasonable level of detail for rules and policing them as noted in prior comments as this is not really the main topic of this thread, being what relevance does an interchangeable controls board have in a stock class when the main concerns are postulated to be fairly consistent with existing eco system? There is no deeper meaning to the question, no pending impact to anything in particular. simply looking to further a conversation that many have touched on and relevant to the rapid pace of development in this scale.

to expound on this a bit, I'll be real here, i'm not unwilling to walk away from all this for the very reason that many seem to fail see the bigger picture here in my humble opinion. were gown adults and in some lucky cases, talented young people and even more special, families that have come together to enjoy a hobby and in the process, make some new friends, share some time with undoubtedly very different cross section of people from a wide cross section of life that happen to share a common source of enjoyment. When looking at it from a macro level, it's rather remarkable really. There is no reason it can't be both competitive and fun however it feels that the latter is often sacrificed more and more for the prior which is unfortunate. really, it truly is. at the end of the day, what do various baubles mean? what has more truth and meaning to your time, a trinket that will be placed on a shelf and soon forgotten or perhaps unforgettable memories of time shared with others that you've grown to like, respect and often cherish as friends? 95% of us if not more of us are not sponsored drivers, not making a living with event finishes (i don't think anyone is at this scale), not even participating in 'events' and more than likely spending far more money than what most would consider reasonable for a hobby that we enjoy. I for one have met many people that i call friends through this hobby. I've had the pleasure to share meals with them, collaborate on projects, talk about miscellaneous life matters, and enjoy their company outside the hobby on occasion. That is what i enjoy more about this hobby.
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Old 2020.02.18, 09:14 PM   #12
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I apologize for getting a bit off topic. I was trying to give examples.

I race for fun, I don't want this to turn into work for me. I don't even care where I place as long as I'm enjoying myself. I do follow the club rules even if I don't 100% agree with them.

I feel that allowing any boards can potentially start an arms race. I long while back, I had asked if you would consider a rules change to allow allow steering knuckles since I was averaging about 1 broken knuckle a race day. It would save money in the long run since the plastic Kyosho knuckles are only sold as part of a set. You told me no, since it would start a slippery slope that you didn't want to go down.

We have a mod class that pretty much includes anything you want to throw into the car, why not let stock be stock? Some people enjoy running stock more than mod cars. I wouldn't even mind going back to box stock. The definition of stock is so blurred now that most of the cars that are running stock class are what I consider mod cars.

It seems like 70 comp is what most people consider stock nowadays. Besides the motor and batteries, it's a mod car.
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Old 2020.02.19, 08:00 AM   #13
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Valid points on many fronts.

From the other side of the coin, a program manager knows that likewise, rules are a necessity. There needs to be some balance to them and foremost, reasonable to setup and enforce. Number one realization however is that not everyone is going to agree or be happy. You will never make everyone happy nor have everyone agree on the same thing. In all the years I’ve been doing this, not once has there been 100% agreement on any rules. You try your best to make them reasonable and hopefully as simple as possible. The more complicated they are, the more technically challenging they are to enforce. As pointed out, enforcement is typically a factor that gets overlooked or neglected.
As i stated, this discussion is not mean to serve as a foothold for any of the DC club class/rules changes. Those are locked in till June/July at minimum. Your experience with breaking knuckles is not the norm. I maintain a fleet of cars and replace maybe a knuckle every couple months and mostly because the demo cars take a beating. Knuckles are cheap and I’ve never let that stop anyone from racing. I have a spare parts box dedicated to those specifically. For sake of argument, aluminum knuckles were allowed, only the Kyosho R26 which are crazy expensive? Only knuckles in same size/camber? You create the same arms race argument with knuckles as there are simply so many variables to them and offerings that then would have to consider policing those in particular. Oddly enough, many were cracking LM or MM2 pods (likely due to poor clearancing for 70T motors) and push for aluminum motor mounts as a result. That in itself is a can of worms best avoided unless a single spec unit is chosen but then limit wheelbase compatibility. Then it’s tie rods, upper arms and with those simple steps you’ve now made stock class marginally less than HFAY/70 comp and at that point, what is the true nature of the class anymore when your pushing everyone who enters to replace just about everything? No one wants ‘box stock’ so a reasonable compromise is made. Or to be accurate, so few would participate in ‘box stock’ that it would be worthless class to maintain. I have no qualms about running a ‘box stock’ car myself as i own a fleet of demo cars. It’s been made plainly clear by local attendance and voice that it would not be successful however. Kudos to the clubs that pull it off but it’s just not popular choice in our local region where frankly, speed is king and most top tier drivers have little appetite for such a slow class.

Returning to the topic in a manner, yes, you are correct in that this could generate an arms race. To counter that though, one could argue that it’s already here and ignoring it, as Kyosho had for far to long with regard to BL, will only serve to push off the inevitable. The currently offerings for Mini-Z scale electronics has exploded with the development of dedicated, mass market 3rd party platforms. Gone are the days where you were decasing large scale electronics to squeeze them under an Autoscale. The scale has grown far beyond Kyosho being the staple product or the basis for which the scale is now known. It may still be Mini-Z but certainly not just Kyosho. If one lets go of the assumption that to remain stock you must remain Kyosho, it also makes many more things possible. You could for example base a stock class on the stock Kyosho chassis and parts with the interchangeable aspect being electronics, as it is for nearly every other scale and currently exists within the Kyosho product line as you can literally board swap from ASF (both BL and BR), FHS, FHSS and EVO. You can prescribe the manner in which all the electronics need to be wired/configured to create a reasonable level of conformity and parity with the Kyosho electronics.

Yes, you are correct in that besides the few places that still truly run stock classes, most move to HFAY/70 comp as the bottom class. I again argue that is is in large part driven by the fact that greater choice in electronics is employed. I again postulate that if regulated choice were likewise employed into ‘stock’ classes you would stand a better chance of keeping interest as multiple radios would not be needed, etc. If for example the EVO platform had a receiver for every major system, i believe stock class would be a much easier sell to existing club populations which already have large investments in radio system(s).

Not sure what, if anything we can do about top tier drivers dropping out of ‘stock’ classes. Perhaps segregating experienced ‘stock’ from inexperienced ‘stock’? That in itself is problematic and you need a certain population size to make that successful and where do you draw the line between the two? How do you ensure the top tier drivers continue to share their wisdom, guidance and tutelage with those below them if they are always held above them? One of the awesome things about this scale in my opinion has always been the willingness of those far more experienced to sit down with those less experienced and help them out. The more fences you put up to corral those groups, the less interaction that have.
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Old 2020.02.19, 08:52 PM   #14
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Because most of the clubs I go to are running 70 comp as the base class, I really don't see a need to keep any Kyosho chassis anymore. If it weren't for the DC club, I would be only running PN and GLR cars. I would've also went with a Sanwa radio.

The races I enjoy the most are the specials we used to run, like the one body only or the trailer races.
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Old 2020.02.19, 09:34 PM   #15
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When the average numberless of drivers improves, I look forward to the specials as well. Just had to do that when we’re 5-6 people and half that are not interested. At fairfax, we were averaging 10+.

Really need to catch up with Kris to see what the current iteration of the trailers are like. I’ll post another poll maybe to see what spec car would be desired. Has to be something available and preferably affordable.
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