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Old 2015.05.04, 08:05 PM   #16
arch2b
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lack of progression or innovation? really? we have more aftermarket platforms in commercial production than any period in mini-z history! we have choices of brushed and brush-less systems. i'd argue we haven't see this much development since the mr-02 debuted with the mr-015 following shortly thereafter. we have anything from 2.4asf to PN and atomic electronics and a few inbetween. we are in a golden age my friend, just need to take stock of whats around us and put into context to appreciate it.

3d printing is here to stay and will only get better as the tech improves and costs continue to decline. right now it's just not up there with retail commercial quality parts and cost due to limits in production resolution and materials via commercial site like shapeways. there is some great stuff out there, which will spur innovation or the manufacturers will simply get left behind.

i'm glad you guys are enjoying foam. i'm perfectly happy with rubber. we have no common core standards and in my 10+ years to work on development, i'm absolutely certain it will never happen for the simple fact that a majority of people really just don't want them. go figure... in a sense were much like a bunch a nerd rage geeks that love to complain about them but never come to any agreement on what they should be

who's to say one's cheap thrill isn't a hobby? i love stock class racing and it's just as much a hobby for me as the club an hour away that runs every modified chassis out there. the trouble is in overgeneralizing. i love the mod chassis stuff as much as the next guy, but prefer hfay, and stock myself. putting together custom/aftermarket kits doesn't make it any more legitimate, nor does strict stock class. must strike a happy balance the more we keep putting down the other side, the more we tear down ourselves as a whole. just my opinion
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Old 2015.05.04, 08:35 PM   #17
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I don't know why they would do that, I have some of the lightest F1 rims out there right now and they're not selling at all. I'm no competition for anyone in that sense. I do have racer wheels with larger offsets than anything else out there though... maybe thats why?

Look, I've been in races with pro-tuned guys... the absolute hottest cells in their cars and every part imaginable on their cars, there are advantages to be had everywhere if you push the limits. I even seen a guy win a race with an F1 car with racer wheels and tires on it... maybe he had an advantage but his advantage was made by him thinking out of the box. IMO... nothing wrong with that.
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Old 2015.05.04, 08:47 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by arch2b View Post
lack of progression or innovation? really? we have more aftermarket platforms in commercial production than any period in mini-z history! we have choices of brushed and brush-less systems. i'd argue we haven't see this much development since the mr-02 debuted with the mr-015 following shortly thereafter. we have anything from 2.4asf to PN and atomic electronics and a few inbetween. we are in a golden age my friend, just need to take stock of whats around us and put into context to appreciate it.
I think what I meant to say that PN has not released anything revolutionary or even innovative recently. X-power and Atomic are definetly on the cutting edge when it comes to implementation of new technology but unless your club has a dedicated class where people are willing to spend 600$ on a chassis that gets run once a month they aren't doing much good. If I take my MRX or IDT or IMT or AMZ or whatever that isn't nimh rubber anywhere else I could maybe run in the open modified class, which isn't even the most popular or competitive class (I actually prefer stock racing). I have noticed that in the US people tend to gravitate towards PN rules so unless PN specifically make an aftermarket chassis that utilizes lipo or some other special features there really is no way to race these awesome platforms in a large race setting. It was fun running my high tech IDT for 3 weeks but for the last month and a half it has really just been a paper weight that is nice to lookk at and show to the 10th scale guys. While my experience is different from most, if Joe Smoe buys an AMZ and wants to run in a competitive class that has stock regualtions he cannot just because the racing environment has not caught up with the advanced chassis designs. I reaaly hope PN comes out with this chassis I have been seeing spy shots of and that it uses lipo becuase then I think there could be some interesting national races and we could draw a lot more bigger scale guys who enjoy the large race meet scene.
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Old 2015.05.04, 08:53 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by imxlr8ed View Post
I don't know why they would do that, I have some of the lightest F1 rims out there right now and they're not selling at all. I'm no competition for anyone in that sense. I do have racer wheels with larger offsets than anything else out there though... maybe thats why?

Look, I've been in races with pro-tuned guys... the absolute hottest cells in their cars and every part imaginable on their cars, there are advantages to be had everywhere if you push the limits. I even seen a guy win a race with an F1 car with racer wheels and tires on it... maybe he had an advantage but his advantage was made by him thinking out of the box. IMO... nothing wrong with that.
I also agree with this, if someone is willing to put the effort in and push the limits no one should be able to telll him no because they didn't think of that or couldn't do what he did. Just because something is difficult or requires a different mindset doesn't mean it is not worth doing. While I hope that every time I race I have an equal chance of winning when it comes to equipment but if I get beat by someone who has better equipment or is innovative that will only push me to be innovate and to improve my quality of equipment. Nothing wrong with that in my book.
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Old 2015.05.05, 02:11 AM   #20
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If PN would force handout PN tires, or even restrict wheels and tires to PN products, then I would understand it. Definately not like it, but kind of understand. It is to promote their products by hosting races. Ok.
If, however, a certain method of machining is banned, it's in my eyes just poor rule-writing and senseless discrimination.

Someone said that there was an oversized 3D printed wheel used in PNEC race that might have had something to do with this. Isn't there already maximum sizes for wheels in the rules, and that's it? It's like if someone used blue Li-ion AAA cells in stock class, then there would be a need (and a chance?) to ban blue batteries...

In the end the PNWC final is just one race in the yearly race calendar, but rules are used as base rules for around the world and so the politics are copied copied along, mostly unintentionally, though sometimes intentionally by active re-sellers.

With PN apparently coming out with their own chassis and own electronics and everything, there is very little Mini-z left in the equation. It does look very much like the sport is going towards a general 1/27th scale championship. Perhaps this is something we should see in advance and make a set of international rules where dimensions and weigth would be the main limiting rules. Let in all LAJF, Sinister, Atomic, PN, X-mods, etc. cars. I'm 100% sure no chassis will give an advantage, this we have already seen over the years, where Pan-cars have usually been no faster than MR03s in the major races.
For me the hobby has always been more about building, tuning and testing the cars, than putting the laps in and practicing driving skills, and I see a lot of people feel the same way. It's typically these people that make the sport easier,cheaper and more exiting for the rest as well.

There is so much that I love in the small scale racing, but everything is not healthy when the price of some of the products are observed. You can almost get a 1/10 SC car with the price of a double A-arm suspension not to mention the new IDT, ITM, MRX,... cars. Competition is always the healthiest for the racers. Othervise the prices go up, and quality down as we have seen already several times.
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Old 2015.05.05, 07:48 AM   #21
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I think really the racing regulations and the general racing environment has kind of lagged behind desptite the cars moving forward. I would love to be able to race lexan mrx pan car in a large race setting but the problem is if PN were to make a race for a lipo pan chassis class then I feel they would not allow other manufacturers cars for fear fo finding out that they are not as fast as the others. I think the only way to get a decent race series that allows 4wd tc and 2wd pan chassis is collectively have clubs weigh in and decide on what they want to run and how they would like to do it. Seems kinda of far fetched but if we want a race that allows the openess and diversity that we are now seeing with the cars avialable, then we can not be dependant on a manufacturer to run the race. Maybe do like 10th scale, elect a few guys to come up with rules and create a sanctioning body for races, then everyone provides a little membership money so that races can be ran without relying on the manufacurers. I know ROAR has it problems too, as does all the other sanctioning bodies, but at least the only restrictions on the cars are physichal dimensions and the electronics used (and even then the list of viable electronics is pages and pages).
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Old 2015.05.05, 08:56 AM   #22
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You are young and full of yourself, and that's what it takes, so why don't you take on lobbying to IFMAR for, first, recognition of the scale and then ROAR for inclusion in their sanctioning of races here in America. Without the former you will never attain the latter. Find a National sponsor that can provide backing for the venture and an Insurance carrier(required for sanctioned events) that will provide coverage for the competitors and spectators as well as the venue operators. Make sure that there is absolutely no prize or purse money available to any part of the endeavor. ROAR in the past has refused to involve themselves in anything that has a cash reward at the end since there are and always will be under age children involved. Once this has all come together, select a National director to represent the scale within the ROAR framework and pick a Regional Director for each of the ROAR Divisions across the USA and I believe Canada. Make sure you factor in the fact that after you select the National Director and all the Regional Directors that there will have to be actual balloted elections within the ROAR framework when such elections take place. I could be wrong but I think it is every two years. Maybe more. It's been a looong time since I held office.

Ferret out and get in touch with the group that hosts the annual "Snow Birds" and see if you can get the scale involved as an exhibition class. That will put the scale in front of the largest audience of RC fanatics in the country. The track will be way too large but it will give the opportunity to let the "genie" out of the bottle so the big dog can eat so to speak. The attention you get(or don't) from that event will tell you if there is a real money making market for the hybrids.

Or. You could look at all the rules packages out there and try to find a niche for the latest round of "flaps up, wheels in the well, belly to the ground missiles: with the capability of reaching "vanishing point". A no holds barred "open" class run what you brung and hope it's enough that can be a support class at "Mini-Z events". Once they get a chance in front of the larger audiences they have the opportunity to build a following and maybe, just maybe catch on and enjoy some growth. I am all for that approach and would back it whole heartedly as I would the lobbying of IFMAR for the recognition of the scale as a whole.

The first thing that has to happen is acceptance of the fact that they are not Mini-Z's and any similarity with actual "Z's" is accidental. They are 1/27th scale iterations of their larger cousins and should be accepted as that. Were they designed to utilize existing Kyosho and aftermarket kibble from the existing standard of the scale? Absolutely. Is that a good thing? Affirmative. Does that make them a MIni-Z? In word, nope. I love the innovation but at this time they are reverse engineered. In time, if they catch on, they might be able to come up with their own packages that if successful and accepted might trickle down to the established "Z" market making them better in the process.

Nuff said.
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Old 2015.05.05, 10:14 AM   #23
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I know it is far fetched but it was just some thing to hope for. There probably is not an enough interest in the US to even get an interclub series going let alone national events. Maybe someday though. It seems like the 1/27th scale is doing really well in europe and asia though, thats probably why the PN races are almost exlusively overseas right now with the PNEC the PNAC and the PNWC that was also held overseas.
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Old 2015.05.05, 12:21 PM   #24
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there is interest, there are those that have tried... trust me when i say it's not from a lack of effort. Some have gone out of their way to help develop general standards and series to no avail. you reach a point where you just get tired of pushing $#*% uphill. there are countless dead threads on the subject here. check the events forum, there are inter-club series ongoing, some open invitation even.
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Old 2015.05.05, 12:31 PM   #25
yasuji
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quazster View Post
Hello, I read through the new rules:

http://pnracing.us/pnwc2015/pnwc-2015-rules.htm

5. All wheel rims must be original made for Mini-Z, any modification is not allowed, any 3D print wheel not allowed.
6. Home make tires and slot car tires not allowed.

What is the logic behind these rules? Why are the changes made? And the biggest question:

How will this be controlled in big races? It is impossible. There are many different types of 3D printers out there and you can easily make wheels that look exactly like machined or injection molded parts. And how will the scrutineers see what rubber is glued on the rim? Some sort of chemistry toolkit with extensive database?

Is this an indication that 3D printed parts will too be banned in the future? 3D printing is the future and this will just slow down the development of the Mini-Z class.

I have talked to various racers around the world and it looks like many are thinking of not going to PNWC races anymore because of reaccuring cases of these sort of rules, including me.

Philip, Grant, do you have an answer for us?

Good Morning!
finally got a chance to sit down and discuss this issue!
apparently just a wording error
5. All wheel rims must be original made for Mini-Z, any modification is not allowed, any 3D print wheel not allowed.
should read:
All wheel rims must be original design made for Mini-Z RACER any modification is not allowed, any slot-car design wheel not allowed )
3d print wheels must fall under the "original design made for Mini-Z Racer" rule and must be available for purchase


6. Home make tires and slot car tires not allowed.

to address this issue "home made tires" are not allowed is self-explanatory
any tire must be available for purchase
and what im sure has most drivers scratching there heads....
slot car tires not allowed.
this should read:
slot car type/design tires are NOT allowed
meaning .. just like the wheel rule...must mount to a "original design made for Mini-Z Racer" wheel!
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Old 2015.05.05, 12:34 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tudor_47 View Post
I think it is very easy... It is a manufactur series so the are forcing all racers to use PNracing stuff regardless of performance.
glad u see it this way as pn opened the gt mod chassis rule @ your request a year ago and u have yet to apply for approval
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Old 2015.05.05, 12:46 PM   #27
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it is interesting to read the comments on this forum and thank you for all of the input!we have had a great discussions re: 3d print and its future many rule revisions will be added soon as we try to make it appealing for all racers but as we all know ... we can not make every on happy all the time... but know that the rules will still revolve around MINI-Z and PNWC!
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Old 2015.05.05, 01:07 PM   #28
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Grant, your version of the rule point 5. and 6. already make much more sense. Although I favor the slot car tire profile for easyness and durability of gluing, this point I can understand. Discriminating a manufacturing process would be just daft.
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Old 2015.05.05, 01:16 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JesseT View Post
Grant, your version of the rule point 5. and 6. already make much more sense. Although I favor the slot car tire profile for easyness and durability of gluing, this point I can understand. Discriminating a manufacturing process would be just daft.
before i started to race miniz there was an issue in in miniz f1 which led to the current f1 wheel rule where the winner won f1 with racer wheels on
so in turn we will need to keep the current miniz racer standard
wheel and tire dimensions will be clarified on the next rule update
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Old 2015.05.05, 04:00 PM   #30
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Super!

Some thoughts
- When making rule changes they could be posted in this forum for discussion or have them sent to active racers for review and feedback before finalising the rules.
- Regarding rims, how about e.g.

- Any material allowed (e.g. plastic, aluminium)
- Maximum front rim width is x mm. Maximum rear rim width is y mm. Maximum rim diameter is z mm. (each class separately)
- All rims must be available for purchase and fit standard MiniZ wheel mounting
- Regarding tires, how about e.g.

- Tires may not be wider than rims
- Only rubber tires allowed. Foam tires, silicon tires, urethane tires, ethyl carbamate tires NOT allowed. (though definition of rubber is apparently not this simple)
- Tire inserts may not be used.
- No traction compounds allowed. Tires may only be cleaned with a 70% alcohol solution.
- All tires must be available for purchase
- And then what would be cool: Top 3 drivers in each class must agree to share their car setup, and have it published along with final race results

PS. "Available for purchase" rule is a bit tricky as you could of course make the product "available but out of stock", "available but outrageously pricey, e.g. 10 000 USD", "make it available in your own webstore on the morning of the PNWC finals". You would not gain friends of course by doing so, but worth a thought.
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