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Old 2017.01.03, 04:02 PM   #1
briankstan
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HFAY Discussion about new Chassis Available

I'd like to open up discussion for allowing the use of some of the new chassis that are available for use in HFAY. Along with this discussion I would like your opinions on what you thing should and shouldn't be allowed with respect to some of the chassis that are powered by different types of ESC's and Servos along with being mostly brushless and lipo powered. What's fair or reasonably equal in terms of speed with our current requirements?

These are being considered not for season 23 that is starting now, but we will be considering making legal for Season 24 starting in July 2017.

some of the options of these newer chassis that need to be considered:

Belt AWD
Shaft AWD
Full carbon platform chassis that is similar to 1/10th scale Touring Cars
Lipo Batteries
Brushless (sensored and sensorless)
Separate Receivers and Speed controllers (limits on Amps etc.)

any other items pertaining to theses chassis' AMZ, BZ, GLA, and others of similar type.

Also the issues of the currently allowed HFAY brusless motor. do we need to look at and revise what's legal for use?

Let me know what you think on this issue. Thanks.
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Old 2017.01.03, 04:57 PM   #2
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I'd like to see the aftermarket chassis allowed without restriction other than motor. All of the current chassis available are brushless(AMZ/AMR@5000kv) but run on 7.4volts. The aftermarket chassis' are not designed to take a AAA pack. While I do think they are fast I don't think they offer any advantages over a top racers chassis.

I think the current motors for HFAY are fine. There are many options up to 5500kv. Some people don't need more than a stock motor as they are hazards on the track...

The question then arises as to if an aftermarket chassis can run 7.4v lipo can I design and 3d print a chassis that uses all mini-z parts but uses a 7.4v battery? Or could I just find the right sized 7.4v lipo and use that or maybe the LiFe?

Kris
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Old 2017.01.03, 05:38 PM   #3
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You should really keep awd and 2wd separate. In a competitive environment the 4wd beats out the 2wd almost every time. It isn't always faster hot lap wise but the consistency is waaaay better. When I was running with the awd vs 2wd chassis (BZ v.s. MRX w/ A-arm) I knew it was an advantage and it was not even close how much easier to drive the 4wd was.

That said, not all chasiss are equal. X-power 4wd (either version) is just plain garbage. I haven't tried the GLA but it certainly seems fast and consistent to me from the little I have seen of it being run.

I also think that in a 4wd class there doesn't need to be a motor limit. Unlike 2wd, you can get away with running a hotter motor even if you don't have the skills since the car is just naturally easier to drive. So just let what everyone can handle run and the best driver will win. It is pretty simple.

Lastly there is the issue of tires. On 4wd you can get away with some creative tire setups to find more speed because the chassis is more forgiving and you have toe and camber to play with on the rear along with a lot less weight. So I would never recommend spec tire... Buuuuut I would say try and keep the tires to like one manufacture or one specific version (ie PN KS only or Marka V1 or V5 or V6 or whatever only). I think trying to run 4wd on only kyosho tires would be really interesting. Not the fastest combo but certainly the easiest to get going without worrying about glue and flipping.
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Old 2017.01.03, 05:45 PM   #4
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Another thing that would be interesting is having like a kysoho stock class for 4wd. Basically, you can buy any 4wd rtr or bnd chassis and only thing you can change is the camber, springs, and tires. Speaking from experience, the 4wd (like any rc chassis) requires a lot of support tools, upgrades, and adjustment parts. Asking someone new to jump into that while also having to pay for that is a lot, more so than trying to get them into 2wd since the car is a lot easier to just get driving. So maybe have one class where it is only kyosho shaft 4wd and amz bnd chassis and one class where it is anything goes 4wd since the GLA and BZ really should be run together.
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Old 2017.01.03, 07:06 PM   #5
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would the new AWD chassis's make a significant improvement over the kyosho models? if you look through HFAY's years of rankings, there are very few AWD in the ranking which is telling.

just checked this past season, only two out of 28 drivers ran AWD. thats not a ringing endorsement for AWD superiority. going back at least a year, the best was 6 of 30.

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Old 2017.01.03, 08:30 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMALMAD View Post
Another thing that would be interesting is having like a kysoho stock class for 4wd. Basically, you can buy any 4wd rtr or bnd chassis and only thing you can change is the camber, springs, and tires. Speaking from experience, the 4wd (like any rc chassis) requires a lot of support tools, upgrades, and adjustment parts. Asking someone new to jump into that while also having to pay for that is a lot, more so than trying to get them into 2wd since the car is a lot easier to just get driving. So maybe have one class where it is only kyosho shaft 4wd and amz bnd chassis and one class where it is anything goes 4wd since the GLA and BZ really should be run together.
You won't find anyone running any awd in our group let alone competitively. 2wd grip and acceleration is superior to awd on hfay tracks. The awd has it's advantages but they are a bit more work and the 2wd upgrades found today are worthy upgrades and not just bling.

I don't believe any awd aftermarket chassis will be consistent enough to be competitive in hfay. That's why I say just allow any chassis with the single rule of the 70t or 5500kv motor. Just do it and see what happens. I'm willing to bet it will be years before anyone can even come close to finishing top 3 with one.
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Old 2017.01.03, 09:52 PM   #7
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Out of everything talked about here I think my only concern is the 7.4 battery. I think that they make enough advantage that it may end up making a lot of people need to change cars after a short learning curve.
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Old 2017.01.03, 11:19 PM   #8
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our two fastest guys run AWD as that is their preference so our club mostly runs AWD... my skill level is just not there to go any faster with a 2WD
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Old 2017.01.04, 12:46 AM   #9
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I'd say limit brushed to stock motor and nimh only, separate motor limit for nimh brushless and lipo brushless.

Otherwise anything else goes, if people wanna get serious about winning then a clear superior chassis will emerge and they can all buy one of them.
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Old 2017.01.04, 03:51 PM   #10
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Thanks for the great info everyone, keep it coming.

I'm not at all trying to limit development of the scale but without making it a necessity to upgrade to be competitive I wouldn't mind including but we want to do it in a fair way.

I've run by my brushed and brushless car in the same season (20) and finished 1st (brushed) and 4th (brushless) and that was just throwing in a brushless esc and motor with my standard setup and no really development on my VE car. I just drove it.

the brushless car was far more consistent on the smaller HFAY tracks and the 5500kv cars was good but a little overpowered for the small track.

this is where the 4wd cars would I believe handle the track size better and if they are run with both higher voltage and a faster motor that may just swing it to an unfair advantage? thought?
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Old 2017.01.04, 04:11 PM   #11
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My opinion is to have a restricted 4.8v nimh class, and an open class with 7.4v. Include 4.8v results in the open class, but not the other around.

Those that wish to keep it simple, can still race against one another, and see where they stand against the open boys.

Lipo has a clear advantage, especially with the same motors available. A 70t Lipo car will be as quick as a 39t AAA without the drop off that is associated with AAA. There is also an additional weight penalty to AAA.

With racing, you can never have too much power... Only too little. Even on a small track, if you can hook it up and keep it off the walls... You will be faster. You can always dial back the power, but if you don't have enough, you cannot add any.

I suggest open chassis regulations, since the majority of aftermarket chassis are going Lipo already. This puts the inexpensive pn chassis on the same playing field as the mr03, and permits any AAA 1/28 aftermarket chassis on the same category. None have really showed that they are better in the long run over the tried and true Kyosho base. I do feel that the mini touring car awd brushless/Lipo cars do have the potential to outpace any AAA cars, but won't do so out of the box.
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Old 2017.01.04, 05:00 PM   #12
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This is why I recommend just allowing them in the season now. You don't have any real data to say otherwise and I can tell you that the days I did run my AMR(lap counted but as a filler in D-Main) I ran a few laps and gave up. It was just too inconsistent. I've seen a lot of fast aftermarket chassis on carpet and RCP and really big tracks. HFAY caters to those that don't have the space so the tracks are small and handling is way more important to focus on than speed.

One thing that has made this race series easy for all of us to enter is there is only one class and that class is set by motor and by AAA. This also makes it very very easy to manage since there is very little to tech inspect and only one class for you to manage Brian. I vote NOT/NOT to create different classes and to allow all other chassis and voltages with only one restriction, the motor be 70t or ≤5500kv. Let the numbers speak for themselves. Let those who cannot easily purchase or afford the Mini-z finally be allowed to enter and compete(speaking about those overseas).

On the days that we run our local series we run a 3WL layout and we have three classes, stock, mod, 90mm. I would guess almost half the time we run more laps in stock class than we do mod. For mod I run my HFAY 5000kv turned up a bit so it's "faster" but I end up running 5-10 less laps than my stock car so all that power, even on a larger track, doesn't equate to more laps.

Last point that's a bit off topic- I wasn't aware I could enter more than once...I don't think this is really fair since you've essentially given yourself two chances to win when the rules state you only get one opportunity to submit times...this bumps a lot of people down the list that would have otherwise finished better...I know it's your race series and you'll do what you want but I know I'm not the only that has brought this up.

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Originally Posted by briankstan View Post
Thanks for the great info everyone, keep it coming.

I'm not at all trying to limit development of the scale but without making it a necessity to upgrade to be competitive I wouldn't mind including but we want to do it in a fair way.

I've run by my brushed and brushless car in the same season (20) and finished 1st (brushed) and 4th (brushless) and that was just throwing in a brushless esc and motor with my standard setup and no really development on my VE car. I just drove it.

the brushless car was far more consistent on the smaller HFAY tracks and the 5500kv cars was good but a little overpowered for the small track.

this is where the 4wd cars would I believe handle the track size better and if they are run with both higher voltage and a faster motor that may just swing it to an unfair advantage? thought?
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Old 2017.01.04, 05:21 PM   #13
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We hosted an event some time back, when the MRX was still the new flavor of the month. In an attempt to find a suitable motor we did some testing with a motor master for RPM comparisons at different voltages. We found that the lowly 80T motor from PN would crank out a healthy 18,954 RPM's at 4.8V. When we cranked it up to 7.4V the peak RPM jumped up to almost 42,000RPM with no other changes. Needless to say we ran the 80T instead of the Brushless with a smaller pinion than you might have thought necessary and very nearly won the event except for the interference from a back marker. it still finished a very close second.

Personally I don't feel that the PN chassis should be allowed in anything but Modified competition either. After all, it isn't a Mini-Z. All of these aftermarket creations should be welcomed with open arms BUT with a modified classification. Though some like to lump them in with and as Mini-Z's, they in fact are not and serve only to ramp up the already steep learning curve as well as create confusion for the less capable competitors that are being told "you have to have" in order to win when the first thing on their minds should be learning to complete a single lap without hitting anything or anybody.
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Old 2017.01.04, 05:25 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byebye View Post
This is why I recommend just allowing them in the season now. You don't have any real data to say otherwise and I can tell you that the days I did run my AMR(lap counted but as a filler in D-Main) I ran a few laps and gave up. It was just too inconsistent. I've seen a lot of fast aftermarket chassis on carpet and RCP and really big tracks. HFAY caters to those that don't have the space so the tracks are small and handling is way more important
The issue with most aftermarket chassis, is steering response. On large layouts, it isn't a concern... But on small layouts, it really is. When developing the GSR chassis, that was the biggest issue that I faced. I went through 4 servos, and still didn't have the response that I was looking for. This is where Kyosho hit the nail on the head with the mini-z.

My experience with the AMZ was very similar to yours. The steering was slow and inaccurate. Also had issues centering. On a large track it was fine until i got to the tight sections, then I was hindered. This is what I assume was the issue with your AMR.

If you find a good steering setup, you could match the Kyosho chassis... Then the additional grip, lower weight, and increase of power would give an edge. This was why I stated that out of the box, it wouldn't be as competitive. But with good development, it could be and then some.

Mike, I completely understand your view. And I feel that the pn chassis so close to the Kyosho chassis in price and design (relative to the carbon aftermarket chassis), that it really reflects the stock scale of the class. Much like the mr02 vs the mr03... We already change 90% of the car, that all that is left to call it mini-z is the electronics, servo and the main chassis.

ideally, I believe that it should be scale based, with open regulations on chassis design with a given power source and motor.

Really, what has to be decided is If this is mini-z, or 1/28 scale
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Old 2017.01.04, 05:41 PM   #15
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Same issues. I agree with all your points. I was willing to invest the time but in order for me to be competitive I had to do what the fast guys are doing. I still think there is hope for it.

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The issue with most aftermarket chassis, is steering response. On large layouts, it isn't a concern... But on small layouts, it really is. When developing the GSR chassis, that was the biggest issue that I faced. I went through 4 servos, and still didn't have the response that I was looking for. This is where Kyosho hit the nail on the head with the mini-z.

My experience with the AMZ was very similar to yours. The steering was slow and inaccurate. Also had issues centering. On a large track it was fine until i got to the tight sections, then I was hindered. This is what I assume was the issue with your AMR.

If you find a good steering setup, you could match the Kyosho chassis... Then the additional grip, lower weight, and increase of power would give an edge. This was why I stated that out of the box, it wouldn't be as competitive. But with good development, it could be and then some.
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