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Old 2007.08.28, 04:21 AM   #1
Aurora
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94mm vs 98mm and best racing bodies

Recently I had been reading the discussion on 'Miniz Science' board, and had been thinking about the tradeoff between using 94 vs 98mm for MA010, along with the best body for the length, for racing purposes:

Rear spoiler: Any difference?
http://www.mini-zracer.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=14951

It seems that many experienced racer do favor 94mm body for MR02 from the thread above...


When I first started, I did use 94m body for a while, but experience a lot of traction rolling or even tumbling when go thru corners in high speed.

After switching to 98mm body for many months now, even though it might be less agile, it does seem to offer more stability; which is more suitable for hotter motor like the recent Xeric or Chili. My current fetted 98mm car is using a Xeric in a IW Enzo body with Atm GT spoiler, and it drives rather well as is.

I am wondering what everyone's opinions on 94mm vs 98mm, and what ky body(without substantial mod) best suited for that length?
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Old 2007.08.28, 12:01 PM   #2
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I run 94mm exclusively. We have recently tightened our track up a bit, and its even more of an advatage now.

I can see where the 98mm can have good points, but I just adjust my driving a little to avoid traction rolling. I used o have a problem when I ran the Calsonic 350z mod car, but after switching over to the takata NSX I dont have problems at all. Its a much wider stance and has a very low CG. I first fell in love with the NSX shell on my stock AWD and run it for both classes of AWD now.

So my answer would be 94mm with an NSX shell, and Ive tried a bunch of shells
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Old 2007.08.28, 12:11 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hrdrvr
I run 94mm exclusively. We have recently tightened our track up a bit, and its even more of an advatage now.

I can see where the 98mm can have good points, but I just adjust my driving a little to avoid traction rolling. I used o have a problem when I ran the Calsonic 350z mod car, but after switching over to the takata NSX I dont have problems at all. Its a much wider stance and has a very low CG. I first fell in love with the NSX shell on my stock AWD and run it for both classes of AWD now.

So my answer would be 94mm with an NSX shell, and Ive tried a bunch of shells
I also use an NSX 94mm body for both my MR-02 and MA-010. The body works really well. Also for the ma-010, If I didn't fill the rear shocks with the grease that came with the SAS, I would get hopping, which would eventually turn into traction rolling.

With the grease and proper ride height, I run 3racing 10 degree tires front and rear and no signs of traction roll on my ma-010
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Old 2007.08.28, 09:47 PM   #4
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hrdrvr,

I have tried the Epson NSX in the past, but didn't like it since the chimney on top is making it a little top heavy. I recently got the Takata green NSX, will it need any modification for MA010 to fit?

Have you ever tried the Ferrari 360 body? For either carpet or RCP, I was recommended to shave off the front 'tongue' of the body...and from trying out with friend's car, the handling and balance seems to be quite nice. How will Takata NSX compare to the Ferrari 360?



pinoyboy

Truth be told, the grease or heavy diff grease on top of the king pin does wonder to prevent minor traction rolling. I too did use the SAS in the past, but dissembling one is a little too much hassle, can't say I like using it but it will take much work to make all the parts working properly.

Wow...3R 10 deg front and back? Are you using this on RCP or carpet? It will be hard to fathom if it is running on RCP and there is no traction rolling with such high grip!


***************

Few more background lines...

For my Enzo 98mm now, I did follow Cristian Tabush's advice to use soft springs in front, good enough a droop and set at a pretty low ride height; so far it does give a very stable driving experience and tends to push a little.

The only thing I wish for is a little more nimble handling, which I think 98mm is inherently never can be as nimble as 94mm, given the same setup for both chassis.

Does anyone have any experience otherwise? Will people ever feel the stability of 98mm actually far outweighs the handling of 94mm?
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Old 2007.08.29, 10:45 AM   #5
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im running on 98mm and find it okay
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Old 2007.08.29, 11:06 AM   #6
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i have run 94mm and 98mm back to back,both with and without S.A.S on carpet.(at work )
enzo,mclaren,calsonic 350z,d2 mercedes and porsche 911 were all tested.
running 15 deg gpm fronts and 10 rears,the 98mm without S.A.S felt very slow weaving in and out compared to 94mm but with S.A.S the stability it offers outweighs the 94mm by a long way.
the 911 body felt the tightest without sas,but the traction rolls were spectacular
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Old 2007.08.29, 11:57 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora

pinoyboy

Truth be told, the grease or heavy diff grease on top of the king pin does wonder to prevent minor traction rolling. I too did use the SAS in the past, but dissembling one is a little too much hassle, can't say I like using it but it will take much work to make all the parts working properly.

Wow...3R 10 deg front and back? Are you using this on RCP or carpet? It will be hard to fathom if it is running on RCP and there is no traction rolling with such high grip!


***************

Few more background lines...

For my Enzo 98mm now, I did follow Cristian Tabush's advice to use soft springs in front, good enough a droop and set at a pretty low ride height; so far it does give a very stable driving experience and tends to push a little.

The only thing I wish for is a little more nimble handling, which I think 98mm is inherently never can be as nimble as 94mm, given the same setup for both chassis.

Does anyone have any experience otherwise? Will people ever feel the stability of 98mm actually far outweighs the handling of 94mm?
I race on RCP. I found that these tires actually give me as much grip as Atomic A.W. groove tires, which I use to run. They are also much cheaper in price, which is always good.
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Old 2007.08.30, 07:00 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora
hrdrvr,

I have tried the Epson NSX in the past, but didn't like it since the chimney on top is making it a little top heavy. I recently got the Takata green NSX, will it need any modification for MA010 to fit?

Have you ever tried the Ferrari 360 body? For either carpet or RCP, I was recommended to shave off the front 'tongue' of the body...and from trying out with friend's car, the handling and balance seems to be quite nice. How will Takata NSX compare to the Ferrari 360?
I think the newer NSXs are better for there slightly wider stance then the 2004s. Im running a lot of rubber under mine (2w in front and 3w in rear). The top scoop may add a little weight, but compared to the 350Z and other bodies Ive run it still seems to have a low CG. That or the width compensates for the weight. I dont get as much traction roll with this body as others. I run the takata on my mod AWD and have a little trouble. Ive got 3w in the rear wiht a 1* toe in. Wiht the low ride spring I get a little rub on the front of the rear fender wells. Running higher springs or running 08 toe would eliminate this. I coudl sand a little on the inside of the well and fix it too. Im trying out the ferrari 575 GPC body right now though, and kind of like it. I can run my car how its set up, but its got a lot more nose sticking out of the front, so the weight bias is switched a little. The only other thing Ive done to the NSXs is round off the front lips a little. In this pic you can see Ive rounded the test body slightly, but the takata isnt yet. It only takes a little to make a big difference in catching the walls.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...7-07-16038.jpg

The ferrari f50 is also a good wide low body that gets overlooked a lot. It doesnt have any canards or front spoilers to get caught in the wall. I ran it on my mod class car for a LLLOOONG time (until I let a friend drive it and he slammed the right body clip into four pieces ).

I tried the 360 briefly, but had to run narrower offsets. Its a very forgiving body on the walls. It also doesnt have much overhang so it reacts very well to driver input. I dont have th race version though, just the street version, so I cant comment on the front splitter, or how the wing efffects performance. Ive been looking for one, and next time Im ordering and its in stock, Ill get one to try out. Otherwise, I may try this 360 out again on the stock car. I dont want to give the width of the mod one up though.

Heres the 360 I ran.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...7-05-28067.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...7-05-28056.jpg
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Old 2007.09.03, 01:08 PM   #9
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My AWD is using 94mm and it is very stable at the moment.
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Old 2007.09.03, 11:49 PM   #10
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mk2kompressor,

I too have tried the SAS with 94mm, and remembered liking it for its stability. However, on the other hand, I felt I could get the same stability with slightly more responsive rear end with the 98mm w/o the SAS. I guess our different experience might be contributed to the spring/camber/tire setup difference we might have.

After playing with other's 94mm and also noticing the stability of them, I am convinced that going back to 94mm with careful selection of parts should make a very responsive car without making too much sacrifice on stability.


Pinoyboy,

No doubt. They do help to keep the racing cost down. And I have tried the wide 3R 10 deg tire and find them to be quite ok to use as well.


hrdrvr,

I have both the new racing Ferrari 360 and Epson/Takata NSX ready to be tested. Just been awfully busy at work, but will come back with my results. My main concern is the local track might not allow much modification on the Ky shells for competition, and wondering which shell is the best for racing without much modification.

I myself do like the street Ferrari 575, and the racing version probably will be quite similar to that. It doesn't require much modification. The only complain I have is that it is a rather long shell and sometimes I wonder the weight of the shell is worthy or not.

Nonetheless, good luck with the new 575 GTC, I think you will like it.


Aimfox,

So you run both 94 and 98? Which one do you perfer more with the 'hottest' motor you have?
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Old 2007.09.04, 04:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurora
hrdrvr,

I have both the new racing Ferrari 360 and Epson/Takata NSX ready to be tested. Just been awfully busy at work, but will come back with my results. My main concern is the local track might not allow much modification on the Ky shells for competition, and wondering which shell is the best for racing without much modification.

I myself do like the street Ferrari 575, and the racing version probably will be quite similar to that. It doesn't require much modification. The only complain I have is that it is a rather long shell and sometimes I wonder the weight of the shell is worthy or not.

Nonetheless, good luck with the new 575 GTC, I think you will like it.
I dont think any officials would shun down on you for shaving the canards the little distacne it takes to make them acceptable. IMO, you cant even tell. If you look at the pic of the two front ends of mine I dont think you can really see which one is shaved, and which one isnt, but there is a HUGE difference in how they react to wall contact.

I agree about the 575 being a huge shell. Its longer than the enzo. Ive been running for a few hours almost every night for the past week and a half though, and I have to say, it handles really well.

The 360 is a more compact shell with minimal overhang front and back. It is very forgiving on the walls. As long as the front lip on the racing model doesnt get caught under the walls, it may handle even better. From what I can tell by the pics, the ****pit is even shorter. My only concern (other than the front lip) with it is that the weight of the wing, and front lip are both outside of the wheel base, so that could be negative...but could be negligable as well.

EDIT: You can see my word was taken partially out :lol: I dont know another word though to describe the area of the car where the windows are.
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Last edited by hrdrvr; 2007.09.04 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 2007.09.04, 05:08 PM   #12
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At the kenon track, guys modify the 360 GT like crazy.

the front has to be shaved down so that you don't catch the rails. A small amount of material is removed from the front to make sure you don't bottom out. And most guys remove the top center of the window to reduce weight at the top to help with traction roll (you can't see this mod unless you take the body off the car)
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Old 2007.09.04, 06:36 PM   #13
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Some of the time I would just switch to 94mm w/ body to drift or use 98mm w/o the body case to race around the house..

both are okay but preferred 94mm better
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Old 2007.09.11, 03:14 AM   #14
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hrdrvr,

Absolutely right about the front lip, I had been awfully busy lately, but last nite when I trying to fit the 360GTC on the 94mm chassis, I then remember what the HK folks tell me about modding/cutting off the front lip to make it work with a low ride height AWD. Now it is coming back to me.

I think the safe word for that could be the 'driver's seat'?


rharris,

The shaving of the middle window has been a track used in HK track as well, now that you mentioned it, and those who are regulars on the track definitely do feel the difference.

As mentioned above, the 360GTC I have seen was modded with the front lip completely cut off and so there is no catching onto the ground/wall. I think I might give that a try.

Meanwhile, I am really happy to see that my C5R shell work perfectly well on my 94mm chassis, and start to fall in love how stable it drives(probably has something to do with aerodynamics of the shell too). It works even my front ride height is pretty darn low, and the top of the knuckles do not touch the inside of the shell.


Aimfox,

Looks like you are having fun, and in the end, that is all that counts.

***********************
One reminder to everyone who is using low ride height chassis--that remember to check/fit on new tires when trying new shell(or at least taking that into account), since the smooth tires might look the same worn or new, and it might affect the ground clearance and whether the top of knuckle will touch the shell.
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Old 2007.09.11, 03:45 PM   #15
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Aurora, How does the C5R fit? Does it sit nice and low? Ive been wanting to try one out, but havent seen one available in a while. I catch on on the bay here and there, but am reluctant to buy, because I want to try it out on the 010. Could I see a pic of yours mounted? Also, what offsets do you run on it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rharris
...And most guys remove the top center of the window to reduce weight at the top to help with traction roll (you can't see this mod unless you take the body off the car)
This is a great Idea. Im a gram shaver myself, and this is a perfect place to do it without altering the look of the cars. Thanks for sharing this tip, I havent seen it before
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