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Old 2018.08.01, 04:56 PM   #46
tommy_greeneyes
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Hey guys were

Wow what a great race sorry I got back too late to let everyone know how I felt. I was really happy for the people that came last Saturday thank you again. I really thought there was going to be more people. I talked it up everywhere I can let people know there was a race. There's still a lot of people with mini zs. And they just would like to have a place to race. I would say about 4 months ago. A friend told me about HobbyTown in Toms River having mini z. So I went down there and introduce myself. But when I walked in I looked around saw a lot of potential for opportunity for racing. I have the chance to work there if I have to but with my schedule it's little crazy and busy right now. Well since I only live 20 minutes down the street from HobbyTown. I will try my hardest to organize racing there. Stock up parts as well and help Randy. I've been racing mini z since 2005 at high speed hobbies in North Carolina. Even though I don't race big race cars no more I really enjoy racing mini z and I'm passionate keeping the hobby alive.

As for the race I enjoyed the classes I did. Racing on this carpet was a lot different than majs track. The grip was getting better throughout the day. One thing I learned about my AAA cars I have to up my game I'll be back on that one. Now as for my modified car. Yes my car was fast but I found out I was having issues with my ESC. Once I felt comfortable in the a main I started getting faster. And when I was in the lead in front of Roland my ESC shut off. That was my race. Both my awd cars will get a facelift on new stuff.

I think we should change the awd and 2wd two two separate classes for modify. Awd touring class and 2wd pan car something to think about.

Atomic is coming out with their new Pancar 2wd soon. So it will compete against GL and PN lipo cars.



Thank you everyone who showed up. And this is just the beginning hopefully 2019 mini z will be back
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Old 2018.08.02, 11:25 AM   #47
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Congratulations once again... Nice to see that miniz is coming alive in your area...
just wondering if anybody ran a fwd in the race?
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Old 2018.08.02, 12:08 PM   #48
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There was an FWD present however I don't believe it entered a race. I have yet to pilot one myself. It certainly looks like a hot mess with everything thrown on top, centered but i'm sure it improves the handling of the chassis.
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Old 2018.08.02, 06:57 PM   #49
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I think fwd could be a lot of fun, but really should be run in a separate class. Right now its hard to fill the grid in the standard classes, so this niche may not ever develop into a racing class.

Does anyone know if the kit comes with bearings?
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Old 2018.08.02, 07:08 PM   #50
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Why require them to be in a separate class? As you noted, best to fill a class than have sparse participation. Further subdividing classes only exacerbates that problem. I'm not convinced separating AWD is worthwhile either. Why take whatever participation your getting and splinter it all over the place, especially if they meet all the class requirements regardless of drive-train. Makes it driver choice to pick what they feel best suits their style/skill.
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Old 2018.08.02, 08:28 PM   #51
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There will be very different line choices, and corner speed. This will lead to a lot of incidents. I feel AWD and 2WD shouldnt race together for the same reasons. If you dont have the participation to add the extra class, then run them together until you do.

The FWD will not have as good laptimes as a RWD with a lower powered spec motor, same with AWD. Once the power starts to come up, the AWD starts to benefit, but I dont see that happening with FWD as it will generate wheelspin.

I see FWD as a fun spec style class, with mostly FWD styled narrow bodies. It would need to be a class catered to them, with narrow bodies and limited to 90mm wheelbase. You could run RWD and AWD with them, but FWD wouldnt be competitive in an open chassis, spec motor class, therefore nobody would use them. With slower spec motors, RWD is still king. Less drivetrain losses, and more corner speed to keep the momentum up. To make FWD competitive, balance of power adjustments will be needed to keep them at an even playing field.

This class could be a 70 sport class, instead of comp. Which would designate the narrow body.

These are just my opinions. I would drive one, and just have fun. I think the battles would be a blast.
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Old 2018.08.02, 09:05 PM   #52
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more soap box thoughts...

Regardless of the drivetrain, people naturally have differing lines as well based on driving style. In reality, I don't see it adding enough of an increased risk of incident to make it worthwhile. Taking the logic that they wouldn't be as fast as other choices thus assumed lesser choice, then why the need to go so far as to exclude them? Natural selection will do that for you without the need to expand on a set of rules. For many, the sheer number of this and that rules is more of a deter-ant than the concern of what someone else would choose to compete with. Who really cares if someone enters MOD class with a 90mm FWD, AWD or RWD? The qualifiers will separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak and sort everyone out accordingly. It would be no different than racing a MOD class rookie for example with tricked out AWD lipo kit in which you have a similar platform but the experience creates more of a risk for incident than a skilled driver with RWD or FWD for example.
There had been calls to separate AWD from RWD in HFAY for nearly a decade and the results simply proved it was pointless concern.
If your looking for an incident free race, your likely going to be racing solo, regardless of what is on the track. I'm not as liberal with the classes to go so far as to say run multiple classes together as some have championed but restricting drivetrain always felt like a crutch to me. For me it's similar to those who believe AWD chassis should only run AWD based autoscales. It's a level of purist that the hobby just doesn't support, or hasn't since maybe the high point in mid 2000's. I'm sure it's possible on a club level but for events, just seems like needless thinning of the heard making classes and rules needlessly complex or restrictive.

Just my soap box thoughts I try to follow the K.I.S.S. principals in all racing matters.
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Old 2018.08.02, 10:00 PM   #53
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It's more about having the class as spec as possible. I think I have been spoiled, racing 5-6 classes during club racing at acton and cruizin...

With hfay, there are few cars on track, which makes fewer incidents. Lap pace typically dictates race pace.

When we were running at cruizin and action we split the awd and 2wd classes because of too many incidents in the slower sections. The overall lap times may be close, but the cars make up their times in different sections of track.

I would be more inclined to spec the class based on body style, narrow bodies under 90mm. This alone would make the drivetrain difference less of an issue, and allow people to run more variety from the wide race oriented bodies that everyone flocks to.

At cruizin, we ran LM separated as well. To give an additional class that created very close racing and battles. Their class structure was some of the most limiting structure that I have raced, but the racing was super close and there were a lot of top 5 battles throughout the race.

I'm not sayingthreat my approach is right. I'm just giving my view. Having more classes with specific requirements for each class keeps the racing tight. But, to do that, you need the entries. Until then, class structure needs to be as inclusive as possible.
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Old 2018.08.03, 07:17 AM   #54
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Yeah, it sounds like they had it figured out and that can work well at club level where you have dedicated members whom all have cars setup for the numerous classes. Others struggle to keep 3-4 classes and end up somewhere where in the middle with cars often running in multiple classes. That degree of separation is a challenge, both pro grammatically and financially. I'm not saying it's wrong either, just very difficult to pull off. I only wish I had the opportunity to jump into some of those classes at cruzin/action... I also understand where that need may arise when the skill level of the average racer improves to the point to where your reaching that 'ideal' line and it makes an appreciable difference. Were actually trying to get a truck (1:32 slot truck bodies) racing class off the ground
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Old 2018.08.03, 08:11 AM   #55
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Where do I buy the body i always enjoy the more niche specialty classes.

I think it's good to have 2-3 core broad classes that are very inclusive, allowing almost open class rules only limiting motor and battery type. An entry level, mid and top, designed by speed. Then you can have the niche classes, spec body or even drivetrain line fwd. FWD can run in the core classes as they don't restrict against it, but it would just be more fun to run all fwd cars together since the racing should be closer due to line.

One of my favorite cruizin classes was the 70t skinny class. 90mm maximum wheelbase, narrow chassis/body width that sold with 0n/0n offset only. We ran with those offsets, and the racing was some of the best racing I've enter participated in. They had no 70t class besides that, although had a 60t autoscale class instead (non modified bodies).

I like opportunities to have reason to run bodies and wheelbases that wouldn't be competitive in the broad class races. Why run a fwd when it's a hypothetically 1s slower than a red? Action ran their narrow 70t class for this reason, and like skinny it was a staple class with equal entries to the stock class.

If a sport class could be designed where tires are restricted to a slightly harder compound, or narrow wheels only in the rear using a narrow body is regimented, it would tighten up the racing class and allow the fwd to compete with rwd rather than just participate.

I understand that for some it's easy just to throw another car together and others a second or third car is a tall stretch... I just wanted to explain where my view on the matter is, and why i stated threat the should be a separate class for them. It doesn't necessarily mean that only fwd should be included, but one that does not keep them at a handicap.

Also, just because there are 4-5 classes running, doesn't mean that you need to run all. I typically didn't run mod at cruizin so that I could run more of the niche classes. I like slower motor racing, and really enjoy weird setups and class restrictions... I've always wanted to run your spec body classes that you would host, but had no transportation to go race them.
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Old 2018.08.03, 12:24 PM   #56
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I believe were both of very similar tastes we simply have differing experience due to available venue's and the natural ability gap where I obviously fall farther down the scale.

In our area, we tried very narrowly focused classes and participation always faltered to the point we changed classes. I've always said, race classes are very specific to the location and participation. What works for one, many not work for another. Adapt and preserve is the key to keeping it all going.

Working to find an affordable source for the truck body myself... they tend to run about the same cost as an autoscale.
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Old 2018.08.03, 06:49 PM   #57
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I agree, if the class structure is hurting participation, adaptations afte needed. To have narrowly focused classes, you need people that are interested in them. The general idea at cruizin was that if there were 4 entries, the class could run. With a limit at 6 classes per night. This gave us some room to experiment with a class idea, even if it was for only a couple meets. We tried to keep buy in cost low, a motor or body. Once you have an extra car it is less cost to convert to specific classes.

I don't expect to run more than 4 classes now, the focus needs to be on filling the grid first, then one there are steady entries there is room to play. With the changes in technology in the scale, it becomes more difficult to spec the classes. Ideally there would be a stock, comp, mod and one more class at most.

I really like the box stock style class. It creates a much easier form of entry for newer racers, and allows second car to be run for experienced racers at low cost (assuming they run brushed motor). I had bought 6 ARR Porsche gt3s at a discount to give to drivers that were less fortunate to be able to participate. We decorated the bodies with decals and vinyl to differentiate them on track.

When we ran box stock at cruizin, it was the end of the night. No qualifying, and everyone together. 6t pinion was the only option, with 90mm bodies. Ran a 5 minute race one direction, then ran 5 minute the opposite direction with a reversed grid. The chaos was so much fun with people learning the line in the opposite direction during the race.

One trick that I do for stock class is to use a positive curve and added punch on the throttle channel on my radio. This allows me to keep more momentum in the corners when letting off throttle partially. It keeps the throttle balance of the car in the mid throttle rather than the end. My modified cars I use a neutral curve with no punch, so itry to gain the same feel of the throttle by increasing the curve and punch on the stock classes.
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Old 2018.08.05, 11:51 PM   #58
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Nice reading...

I totally agree on points being brought up on box stock racing...

Just wondering though with the different radios and formats that kyosho's been coming out with... are all box stock chassis / radio combinations created equal?

For example... Taking the 2.4ghz frequency into account... There was the mr02 asf using the kt18, then the mr015, and mr03 also using the kt18... then kyosho came out with the sport version, then the sport 2 version using the kt-19... then their latest release the RWD which uses the same controller as the FWD uses (don't really know what model kyosho named it) so that's three different controllers for 3 different chassis (mr02, mr015, mr03) and probably 5 different esc versions (mr02 & mr015 / mr03 / mr03sport / mr03 sport 2 / mr03 rwd)

Like would one esc board, tx combination have an advantage over another? Which one would you choose?

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Old 2018.08.06, 02:36 AM   #59
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My opinion is that the esc with a 70t motor makes very little difference. The batteries can make a much more noticeable difference than an esc on a very low amp draw. Once you get into the 50-40t range, the fets can be noticed more.

All brushed ASF and AD band boards have a 2+2 fet arrangement of 3010 FET soldered on to 2 sets of pads on reverse sides of the pcb. I kinda missed out on the whole sports ordeal, but from what I know, thet have a 1+1 arrangement of 3010 FET on one side of the esc, which I believe to be the same as the RWD and FWD.

For power delivery with a stock motor, or even PN 70t I never really believed that upgrading fets had any noticeable increase in performance. I felt a bigger performance increase going from 3004 fet to 3010 fet in the AM days.

The biggest issue with sports is that they have a static issue, which could be related to power draw. PN had to specify a maximum gear ratio for the 70t motor, which is relatively low in power draw for the 3010 fet that it is equipped with. I know that 3004 fets could handle 50t, even 48t motors, so the gearing limit of the 70t for sports is beyond the fet in the esc design. Thus we limited the drawing ratios of the 70t class to accommodate sports cars, which I don't think any were seen on track (something to take into account four the future).

In regards to transmission response, I am still using my Helios with ASF module. So I am way behind in response time compared to the latest and greatest systems, but don't feel that it holds me back any.

I have heard that the sports steering has a lower resolution in proportions. Which makes the steering notchy. The newest rwd/fwd electronics seem to have steering resolution similar to ASF. So it looks like a step in the right direction.

Personally, I am starting to look more into brushless as my racing future. With only one company producing brushed motors for mini-z, it looks like time will be limited. I foresee a brushless/lipo future for this scale, but figuring out how to race the different technologies in both motor and battery together is where the balancing game starts.
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Old 2018.08.06, 06:45 AM   #60
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no, they are not 100% equal across the board. This was true back in AM to 2.4 days as well and frankly something I don't think we will ever achieve given the quantity of radio systems employed, number of 3rd party manufacturers and their eco systems, etc. Best not to get to caught up in that as the only way to regulate parity into that is by establishing a common core rules/format. I can tell you from experience, that it is unlikely that will ever happen. I've joined many committee's, groups, discussions, etc. with the aim of finding a common core and frankly, there isn't enough of a demand or interest.

What we are left with is figuring out how best to plan/manage programs that seek to offer appropriate classes based on skill and interest and focus less on who makes what as left face it, 'Mini-Z' is simply an ubiquitous term that most commonly refers to the 1:27/28 scale vs. being exclusive to Kyosho. Kyosho isn't the only one mass producing platforms in this scale anymore. I think we have to move away from getting hung up on what is or isn't 'Kyosho' anymore, especially since Kyosho has given up on racing programs in our hemisphere.

The object of desire is to both bring in new drivers and to offer entertainment to existing drivers via more optioned racing. Without an entry level to open the door and cultivate skill and or racing in general, we as a collective are doomed. Many of seem to forget just what it's like to first get into this scale and it's far more complex now than it was in days gone by. I still get overwhelmed just thinking about which lipo AWD platform to get into... which is in part why I avoid it altogether.

Keep it simple, keep it reasonably monitored with classes and keep it entertaining. If your not having fun, it's not much of a hobby.
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