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Old 2018.08.06, 07:10 PM   #61
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Ray, I totally agree with you. Mini-Z racing, in a sense has been reference to the scale, but mostly since Kyosho was the only true player at the table.

Now that there are more players, how the adoption of the new platforms gets written into the rules is a bit tricky. The entry point for the scale now seems to place the mini-Z sports into the position that Xmod were back when I started. They are the lowest entry point in the scale. For this reason, a strong relatively stock platform is important.

I have been scratching my head at the AWD mini touring cars for a while. I picked up the AMZ a few years back and was deeply disappointed in it. Mostly due to electronics, and just decided to keep things simple and focus on the Mini-Z. The platform that I have been developing when I find the time, is based on the Mini-Z and the hop ups that support it. Much of the Mini-Z aftermarket has either moved up scale, or developed their own platforms that do not share many parts with the Mini-Z. It excites me to see new platforms on the market, but for a newcomer, it is very confusing what to get and how it will be accepted in the rules.

For our class structures, we only specified Kyosho chassis and electronics for the Kyosho Stock class. The other classes were regimented based on body, cell and motor requirements. I feel that this is a good option to allow adoption of the new technology while not getting out of hand with needing the latest and greatest.

One issue that comes up, is whether the rule structures should focus more on what is available to purchase, or older tech. The ASF MR03 is superior to the sport, no question about it. But, for stock level racing, the difference is not as felt as it would with a more powerful motor. Stock racing is more momentum focused driving, so corner speed is more important. Modified and pro stock classes(50-48t) to some extent, squirt out of the corners on to short chutes is the tuning focus even if you sacrifice some corner speed. If you are down in power it is typically less noticeable since you are not in the acceleration range of the motor as much as you are riding the rev limit, so the increased resistance of the ESC is less felt. The steering difference and the static shutdowns is what breaks the electronics on the sports.

I have heard that the newest electronics on the RWD and FWD have improved upon the steering and static shutdowns of the sports. I have no first hand experience with that, so really cannot comment. If so, the electronics should be fine for stock level racing, but not much more than that.

I am definitely in favor of a unified rule set, at least for the core classes. There really has never been one, and each club seems to have their own way around designing their class structures. Many clubs followed the PNWC rule set, which created a good base to race on given that it has been the only ongoing race series. If you remove the restrictions for non PN motors and parts with open electronics and chassis, its a very straight forward rule set that can be applied at club and regional levels.

At its peak, we had 6 Mini-Z tracks within a 30minute drive from Manhattan. Each had its own set of rules and quirks. None of the classes lined up perfectly with each other. Some were close enough to be able to use one car across 3 tracks... but we couldnt even have a baseline rule set in one city, with one chassis. Each club has its reasons for its ruling restrictions. Cost, availability, depth of field... there are so many factors that come in to play.

The core classes, of stock and pro stock would be classes that I feel need a unified rule set more than ever. Modified is more or less an open class...

With fewer clubs, and people stuck between tracks, a unified core rule set would allow someone to easily set up one car to work well at both tracks with just tire tuning. I could easily build cars for 4 classes in a day if attending an event (which is the only racing that I have done in the last 4 years), but most do not have that luxury.

So, where do we start...
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Old 2018.08.06, 09:02 PM   #62
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oh brother, where to start exactly... I've tried numerous time and each time the discussion essentially broken down in frustration and disagreement. I vowed to not try that again but always hopeful someone would pick it back up. I've been trying for the better part of a decade though and still have not gotten agreement on what 'stock' means much less a unified set of rules. I'm more focused on working it regionally which has higher chance of success. PN is going to do what's in their best interest, and why wouldn't they to be honest. Atomic has fallen off the north american continent. Kyosho jumped ship about 2005. HFAY is the only non manufacturer set of rules I know of that has existed for at lease a decade. Hate to sound pessimistic but I'm just tired of beating my head against that wall of unified rules.
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Old 2018.08.06, 09:43 PM   #63
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I think the HFAY rule set is a great starting point. I totally agree with you. Atomic has left Mini-Z entirely. They are focused solely on their own cars since the restructure. In general, the manufacturers should not be making the rules, but adapting their parts to fit within a standardized rule set. Due to low population in the scale, and nobody agreeing on a rule set on the club/regional level, there is no standard. Everyone does what is best for them at the time, and that limits their racing to their local crowd that likes their rules.

When we had many tracks, the question was which rule set to I want to use, and that is what dictated which track to race. If the rule set was standardized, you could have raced the same cars on a Friday, Saturday and Sunday if you wanted on three different tracks. But, with the work needed to adapt to specific rules, you either needed dedicated cars, or to forgo racing at specific tracks.

My idea of "stock" on a scale sense is more or less derived from the larger scales, where the class is a motor/battery restriction... open chassis, suspension and electronics, with hard bodies made for Mini-Z. If it were Mini-Z stock, then that would follow the tune of a more box stock class, with minimal tuning.

To me, stock is more or less a definition of motor power than tuning availability. Stock speed motor, with open tuning as seen in larger scales. Others may see it as open the box, put the car on the track and race.
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Old 2018.08.07, 07:28 AM   #64
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So, has Hobby Town decided on a Mini-Z race schedule? I'm happy to assist with getting information posted here on the site. The website doesn't appear to have a calendar function. Their faceballs page Events doesn't project very far ahead.

FYI, i started a subforum section for them HERE

Last edited by arch2b; 2018.08.07 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 2018.08.07, 10:21 AM   #65
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Quote:
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There was an FWD present however I don't believe it entered a race. I have yet to pilot one myself. It certainly looks like a hot mess with everything thrown on top, centered but i'm sure it improves the handling of the chassis.
That was mine. It's a difficult car to drive quickly I think. Loves to traction roll. Steering is really fast and sharp. I'd like to try and tune it out some more. Nice thing is it uses parts from the MA-020 in the front, and the MA-010 in the rear. So upgrades and tune parts are available already.

EMU, contact Remy on the social media Mino-Z group. I believe he has, or knows where to get the lexan truck bodies.

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Old 2018.08.07, 07:51 PM   #66
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Ray, thanks for putting up the new section. I dont know if they have a worked out racing schedule yet. I am not exactly local (about a 2.5hr drive), so likely only able to attend the larger events around once a month or so. I am going to shoot Tommy a message and see if he knows if there is a racing schedule being worked on for club races. I would assume that the upstairs track could be raced or practiced at almost any time, so long as enough racers come. The downstairs track is typically reserved for their large events.

Zero, I just checked the book, (we try not to say the actual name of the site since it invites bots to this site which can be a true nuisance). I sent Remy a message.

For those not on the book, Remy runs Fabulous RC in Malaysia, and has stock on the Lexan Euro Truck bodies that look to be molded from the Slot bodies... Maybe we can do a group buy of a bunch of bodies if there is enough interest. I personally would prefer to stick with the true plastic bodies, but I have no objection to lexan as long as it is painted.
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Old 2018.08.08, 07:44 AM   #67
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Oh, oops. My bad. I thought abbreviating the name might help. Lol

As far as "stock" goes, I was always under the impression that it actually mean you can only use what comes in the box. I was pleasantly surprised when I found out we could use bearings, wheel nuts and T plates. I wasn't aware of much more. Again that was the first actual bit of racing I've ever done. I'm for "stock" class cars being relegated to keeping the included differentials, motors and electronics. For that class of race someone's biggest advantage would be their experience and tuning knowledge of said chassis.

I guess keeping the car box stock aside from bearings, nuts, T plate and designating a gear ratio turns it into a drivers race though.

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Old 2018.08.08, 08:59 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeromerk89 View Post
I guess keeping the car box stock aside from bearings, nuts, T plate and designating a gear ratio turns it into a drivers race though.
It definitely removes the pay to win aspect that is often associated with all scales of motor racing. I have always been a price vs performance oriented racer, some parts hold great value, others just bling appeal. Just because something is expensive, doesn't necessarily mean that it is better.

In general, the allowances we chose were based on the kyosho box stock class rules set forth in the remnant/DC group. Most of the changes are for durability, and when we participated in a race with them, the class was super tight racing. Spring options were permitted solely due to the fact that the owner had sold the competition pack that included springs with a number of ready sets leading up to the event. Unfortunately none of those racers attended.

At cruizin, our box stock class was restricted to 90mm or shorter, thus removing any capability for dampers, we could add bearings and tires. The rule was you could use what comes in the box! That's as stock as it gets. This is the car that I drove, although I changed the mount to the mm2, changed the t-plate and used a new ASC including the wheels. I had to add a little tape to the wing since i cracked it in half.

At my old stomping ground Action RC, the stock class was the main class. And it really was a pro stock class where the motors were limited to motors that could run in stock AM electronics. So, basically a 48t atomic stock, pn 50t, or x-speed.

Everyone has a different idea of what stock is. Some think out of the box, others think the maximum performance on stock electronics, and some think a spec motor/battery class. Our naming of the classes was an attempt at simplifying it for the viewers. Basically the tiers, entry, mid, and unlimited.
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Old 2018.08.08, 09:25 AM   #69
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In a relatively basic 'stock' class, batteries are important as well. If you have the time and persistence to manage batteries to that level, it's worth the effort however my care is limited to cycling them the week of a race and topping them off day of as that's simply all the time I have. Could better care produce better results for me, sure. Do I realistically have the time to do so, not really. It's not something I worry about as I try to focus more on finishing without accident and smooth clean lines vs. brute forcing my way around the track.
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Old 2018.08.08, 10:08 AM   #70
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Batteries are arguably the most important thing in stock speed classes. In larger scales, stock racing is more expensive than mod is. Again, the differentiation between the classes here is "stock" motors, as suspension and chassis options are the same. With everything held constant, you need as much power as you can get as that is what will give the advantage over another equally skilled driver.

I would buy 60 batteries leading to an event if I were running stock, and sort them based first on capacity, then average discharge voltage. The ones with the best capacity and lower discharge voltage would be my modified batteries, and the ones with the best capacity and highest discharge voltage would be my stock cells. The others would become practice cells. So, out of the ten packs, I could basically assume that one pack would be discarded entirely, and there would be 4 race packs for stock, 4 for modified, and 4 for practice. My best set would be my main pack, and would only run once per meet.

Now, I dont have the time to work on batteries, Im using eneloop because of their consistency. They dont put out a lot of current, as they have pretty high internal resistance, but the voltage stays relatively high for stock class racing (without the punch). They store really well, and require little maintenance to have their normal performance level. If you dont race every week, I think this is a good way to go. I just make sure that my batteries are hot when I hit the track, and try to time the charge to finish as soon as we are ready to start the race. (modified I prefer cool cells)

My driving style is very different for modified and stock motor racing. In stock, my goal is to keep the motor spooled up, even if it is a longer distance and marginally slower through the section. I want as much corner speed as I can have as that will mean less acceleration is needed on the straight (therefore less amperage draw of the cells, and more voltage). This also lets me set up the car more to ride the front end.

My F40 is a great example of that. It was originally setup for the skinny class at Cruizin, so its home is on carpet. I adapted it with an Atomic Stock 48t for the Remnant race, since it was 90mm. It is really setup for 70t and carpet, but handled the extra motor decently (a little bouncy in the rear end on full throttle). Its setup is all about carrying speed through the mid corner, throttle attitude will allow me to scrub speed and tighten or loosen the radius that the car is travelling. Dialing in the appropriate amount of drag brake with throttle trim can make a huge difference. Move it forward until you lose reverse, back one click, see how the cars attitude changes, and then do the same in the opposite direction. The attitude of the car off throttle will change a lot. Forward trim will scrub less speed and carry you through the corner, where reverse trim will dip the nose and pull the car more into the corner. If the front end is a little too stiff, you can dial in some reverse trim to compensate and give a hair more steering. If you have too much front traction, you can move the trim slightly forward to make the weight transfer off throttle less aggressive.
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Old 2018.08.08, 11:16 AM   #71
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I was going to ask about batteries. The thought that maybe the AAA cells I was running where just not up to the demand of an actual race had crossed my mind. I run Duracell and Energizer rechargeables since they are readily available to me. Probably not the best choice but they work for just throwing a few laps ony home track.

Two of my buddies that run at home with me, are using Orion 1100mah AAA packs. They Absolutely last forever. Thought about snagging a set of those to try out
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Old 2018.08.08, 11:24 AM   #72
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Typically, the higher the mah in aaa cells, the lower the sustained voltage when amperage draw is applied. 750 is the best for stock, 900 is still good in stock but more modified oriented. 1100 is for enduros. 1100 won't have the punch of the lower rated cells due to higher internal resistance, and will overheat in modified...
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Old 2018.08.08, 02:13 PM   #73
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Gotcha. Sets I ran where 700, and 800. They are also a bit on the old side. So I think new batteries are in order.
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Old 2018.08.09, 01:42 PM   #74
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There are countless threads on batteries, charging, etc in this subforum. What you decide is a best for fit for you will be based on many things, such as cost, time investment, effort investment, equipment, etc.
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