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Old 2005.05.23, 12:03 AM   #1
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Rules of PN Mini-Z Championship

Let's drag that debate over here from the Iwaver thread. It has no place in that thread.

Quote:
USA Regional Race Rules

The primary ambition of this event is to maximize the biggest fun by minimize the rule and restriction in Mini-Z race. The participant is allowed to have 100% free hand to transform their Mini-Z to the best handling and performance. Any modification on the body and chassis, and the usage of after market parts from any factory or manufacturer is welcome. In order to explore the maximum capability of the Mini-Z, you are urge to share your information during the event or contact us via our web-site forum.

Whether you are a professional, semi-pro or just an amateur. You are very welcome to this most exciting Mini-Z event. We are not representing any manufacturer. There is no restriction even for factory team driver (if you dare to risk you title or ranking in world-class competition, you may have pretty good chances out run by someone using ‘OUT OF BOX’ products).
If you cannot use anything but a Mini-Z chassis then this rule is stupid. It says in the rules: "the usage of after market parts from any factory or manufacturer is welcome."

If I were a participant I would assume from that that I could use a Pocket Knife chassis, Tagu wheels, Squat foam tires, Yeah Racing bearing, Mini-z board with a 10x2 stacked FET with an Iwaver body trimmed down to save weight. No where in the rules posted is there any thing that says that I could not use that setup.

If they are using another set of rules then it should be stated very different than what is quoted above. The true rules should be posted. If IW, Pro-Z et all are not allowed then there should not be a line that says "The participant is allowed to have 100% free hand to transform their Mini-Z to the best handling and performance. Any modification on the body and chassis, and the usage of after market parts from any factory or manufacturer is welcome." because that is not true.

That is all I was trying to say in the other posts.
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Old 2005.05.23, 12:07 AM   #2
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very well put, i completely agree with you there, if it isnt allowed then they need to modify the rules as such, not let someone build a very expensive car from aftermarket parts then turn around and say that they arent allowed to run it, that would totally piss me off
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Old 2005.05.23, 12:30 AM   #3
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i second that... such an ambiguous rule could easily confuse racers. it's easy to bend the rules... one could even buy the iwaver parts seperately and they could be counted as 'modifications'.

"the usage of after market parts from any factory or manufacturer is welcome."

well... how bout a cf chassis, aftermarket servo and electronics, and hell, let's throw in AWD too (hypothetical situation)... would it still be allowed? the way they write that rule, i would think so.

only that i would get turned away at the door because i had an AWD iwaver...
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Old 2005.05.23, 06:05 AM   #4
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what if I have an Iwaver with a black-see through chassis...... is it an Iwaver or a Mr02 now? I have one of those and it would be real hard to tell that its an IW02 unless I told you
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Old 2005.05.23, 10:36 AM   #5
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Ok guys, I'm not satisfied with the PN rules either, but you guys are going a little overboard in my opinion. I don't like the wording of the paragraph, but in the chart, all the proposed "rule bends" that you guys have posted are already covered.

The existing PN rules clearly state:
1) Kyosho chassis only. This means no IW, Pocket Knife or any other prototype chassis.
2) no foam tires.
3) no FETs in stock. FETs are allowed in mod. If you want to run your 10x2 stack, feel free.
4) Kyosho autoscale bodies only.
5) Kyosho PCB only. The IWaver board is easy to distinguish from Kyosho. PCBs will be HEAVILY teched.

The questions that I had for PN that were clarified were:
1) You CAN use wider than 11mm tires. This means that the wide TaGu wheels are allowed.
2) Motors CANNOT be opened. This means no brush changes or other alterations to the motors except for break-in and comm drops.
3) The minimum weight is more than stock. You are expected to add ballast. You can cut parts of the chassis, but the car must still meet the weight requirement.
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Old 2005.05.23, 11:12 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruf
Ok guys, I'm not satisfied with the PN rules either, but you guys are going a little overboard in my opinion. I don't like the wording of the paragraph, but in the chart, all the proposed "rule bends" that you guys have posted are already covered.

The existing PN rules clearly state:
1) Kyosho chassis only. This means no IW, Pocket Knife or any other prototype chassis.
2) no foam tires.
3) no FETs in stock. FETs are allowed in mod. If you want to run your 10x2 stack, feel free.
4) Kyosho autoscale bodies only.
5) Kyosho PCB only. The IWaver board is easy to distinguish from Kyosho. PCBs will be HEAVILY teched.

The questions that I had for PN that were clarified were:
1) You CAN use wider than 11mm tires. This means that the wide TaGu wheels are allowed.
2) Motors CANNOT be opened. This means no brush changes or other alterations to the motors except for break-in and comm drops.
3) The minimum weight is more than stock. You are expected to add ballast. You can cut parts of the chassis, but the car must still meet the weight requirement.
Ruf, thank you for posting the additional rules. From the other post in the " A totally new iWaver chassis has just been released!" thread what I had quoted was posted as the rules for the series. I had not gone to look on the web for the full rules of the series, I only went off of that was posted to MZR and started this thread to stop the hijacking of the other thread.

If all of the rules you quoted are on there page or entry form then there is no problem other than the mis-leading lines saying "The participant is allowed to have 100% free hand to transform their Mini-Z to the best handling and performance. Any modification on the body and chassis, and the usage of after market parts from any factory or manufacturer is welcome" since this it not true.

Though it is not false advertising it is just an out and out lie.
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Old 2005.05.23, 12:26 PM   #7
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Read the rules here... http://www.pnracing.us/usa-rules.htm

Look pretty clear to me. No lies, pretty clear on body, tires and chassis. There is a chart with specific guidelines that go as far as what is legal and what isn't.

As far as chassis modifications, that is not interpreted as any aftermarket chassis. It clearly states Kyosho chassis (the specific kinds allowed in each class). Tires; any RUBBER tires, as wide and low or tall, as long as they fit within the max wheelbase of 80 mm. Bodies; KYOSHO only, you can cut it, put a wing on it, paint it change it, as long as it is a kyosho body. Simple rules, very wide and ample and open to interpretation. You must also understand that when it comes up to the interpretation of the rules either PN or the racedirector's interpretation will be the correct one. Reason being: Efficiency and consistency. It is much better to abide to the interpretation of one or two people rather than a thousand different racers out there.

PN world cup is a cup. It is not about being inclusive, it is about being exclusive. If you were racing a Tamiya TCS race and show up with an Associated TC4- you most certainly would be excluded. Abiding to the rules shouldn't be difficult because they are the same for everyone and they are to be set sort of as as "spec" classes. This race is not a 1/28th world championship cup, it is a mini z cup. (Mini Z being a trademark name for the Kyosho Chassis).

As a token of advice, when racing, if you are in that grey area of the rules and feel a little insecure about it don't do it. There will always be people complaining about your extra bit of knowledge that makes you an extra bit faster and will be called a cheater-even if you know you aren't. It happens in everyform of racing. People who push the limits are always held back by the competition by crying wolf. To put it in a few words, follow rules literally- don't interpret it to "your" advantage. If it says rubber tires-don't ask questions, just run any rubber tire. If it says Kyosho bodies, run a kyosho body- just because an iwaver is almost the same thing doesn't mean it is.

PN has a great racing program going, that NO ONE else is doing right now. If you don't like the program, don't participate in it, but don't bad mouth it, specially if most of you haven't taken the time to read the rules. As the class becomes more diversified with different chassis and aftermarket bodies, the rules might change at the PN cup, become more diversified to accomodate other cars or they might not- That, is up to Phillip.
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Old 2005.05.23, 12:37 PM   #8
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I can't wait for just that to happen. Open up the competition more for a true championship. But yah keep in mind that this is a CUP series. For those of you with less racing experience, that usually implies a much more restricted ruleset. I'm personally hoping for a move to open FET, open chassis next year, more of a ROAR or IFMAR ruleset.

I do disagree with that statement about 100% blahblahblah. I'm going to ask Philip to remove or change that. I think he meant well. His intention is for it to include hopups from ALL manufacturers even though it is nominally the "PN" cup. That way you CAN run Atomic, GPM, Tagu, whatever, but so long as it's more of a bolt-on thing rather than a total replacement.
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Old 2005.05.23, 12:49 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CristianTabush
Read the rules here... http://www.pnracing.us/usa-rules.htm

Look pretty clear to me. No lies, pretty clear on body, tires and chassis. There is a chart with specific guidelines that go as far as what is legal and what isn't.
Cristian, the problem is with the opening paragraph of the rules section. (BTW thank you for posting the link to the rules) That is where the lie is, I would take it off the page or at least rephrase it and take out "The participant is allowed to have 100% free hand to transform their Mini-Z to the best handling and performance. Any modification on the body and chassis, and the usage of after market parts from any factory or manufacturer is welcome"


Quote:
Originally Posted by CristianTabush
As far as chassis modifications, that is not interpreted as any aftermarket chassis. It clearly states Kyosho chassis (the specific kinds allowed in each class). Tires; any RUBBER tires, as wide and low or tall, as long as they fit within the max wheelbase of 80 mm. Bodies; KYOSHO only, you can cut it, put a wing on it, paint it change it, as long as it is a kyosho body. Simple rules, very wide and ample and open to interpretation. You must also understand that when it comes up to the interpretation of the rules either PN or the racedirector's interpretation will be the correct one. Reason being: Efficiency and consistency. It is much better to abide to the interpretation of one or two people rather than a thousand different racers out there.
Being a fan of NASCAR (Remember when Junior Johnson used to have the fuel cell connected to the roll cage around Cale Yarborough to get a few more gallons in the car?) I know it is better to have the inspectors have the final say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CristianTabush
PN world cup is a cup. It is not about being inclusive, it is about being exclusive. If you were racing a Tamiya TCS race and show up with an Associated TC4- you most certainly would be excluded. Abiding to the rules shouldn't be difficult because they are the same for everyone and they are to be set sort of as as "spec" classes. This race is not a 1/28th world championship cup, it is a mini z cup. (Mini Z being a trademark name for the Kyosho Chassis).
Again, the ONLY problem I have is with the opening paragraph that says "the usage of after market parts from any factory or manufacturer is welcome"

Quote:
Originally Posted by CristianTabush
As a token of advice, when racing, if you are in that grey area of the rules and feel a little insecure about it don't do it. There will always be people complaining about your extra bit of knowledge that makes you an extra bit faster and will be called a cheater-even if you know you aren't. It happens in everyform of racing. People who push the limits are always held back by the competition by crying wolf. To put it in a few words, follow rules literally- don't interpret it to "your" advantage. If it says rubber tires-don't ask questions, just run any rubber tire. If it says Kyosho bodies, run a kyosho body- just because an iwaver is almost the same thing doesn't mean it is.
What fun is that?...LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by CristianTabush
PN has a great racing program going, that NO ONE else is doing right now. If you don't like the program, don't participate in it, but don't bad mouth it, specially if most of you haven't taken the time to read the rules. As the class becomes more diversified with different chassis and aftermarket bodies, the rules might change at the PN cup, become more diversified to accomodate other cars or they might not- That, is up to Phillip.
I am in no way trying to bad mouth PN. If you have seen it as that I have you have been reading in the "grey area" between my lines. As I have said all along is that they say in the intro "The participant is allowed to have 100% free hand to transform their Mini-Z to the best handling and performance. Any modification on the body and chassis, and the usage of after market parts from any factory or manufacturer is welcome. " Again, that is not true. If those 2 lines were taken off the page I would have no problem with it at ALL!

I do also see that it says Kyosho PCB but does not say a Mini-Z PCB so expect to possibaly see Mini Inferno boards at the next race.

I am very glad the PN is carrying on where the Kyosho Cup left off. If I were anywhere around one of the races I would try to attend and get my butt kicked. Believe me, I would not be pushing any of the rules in anyway. I would probably just have bearing upgrade and softer tires in a stock class.

Last edited by bda52; 2005.05.23 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 2005.05.23, 01:20 PM   #10
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I understand what you say of the free hand rule... The only thing is it is like a law contract. It has its ifs, ands and buts... 100% modifications, within the rules specified. You see an aftermarket chassis as a hop up. I see it as a different car. Most people involved in RC would agree if they just saw a 1/12th scale pan car. Most of them have an Associated front end (I'd say about 75%-when I USED to race 12th scale), associated diff and shocks. The cars were no longer 12L3's (or 4 now), they were a carpet knife a Yokomo, etc... What people considered to be the associated part of the car was the rear end and THE MAIN CHASSIS. The difference may have been just the way the slots for the battery were cut out (yokomo), but the car was no longer an associated car. This is perhaps why in RC, when they ask for brand, they don't ask about car- that is too open to interpret, they ask about chassis. Again, PN mini Z cup is just that- a cup, a spec class where you are trying to eliminate a lot of the variables of cars and motors and try to bring out the driving skills and mechanic skills each individual posseses- within a very limited spectrum. Push the boundaries- OF COURSE! but not stepping into that grey area (like BAR recently in F1). Aside from that, enter your car, attach a sail to the roof of your car - as long as it is on a kyosho body and that body is resting on a MR01, 1.5 or 02 chassis. That chassis may have been milled out to the max and re ballasted and put on corner scales to reach the min weight. As long as the chassis is manufactured by Kyosho. By the way remember to run rubber tires, with NOTHING on it. No cleaning agents, no oils, no anything, (alright maybe some H2O).
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Old 2005.05.23, 01:27 PM   #11
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BTW, you are right on the PCB part. If they don't specify KYOSHO Mini Z PCB, you can run the half 8 board- I wouldn't because knowing how people complain, the official would probably say it is inferred or whatever that you can't use one. I just rather stay on the edge of the white side.
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Old 2005.05.23, 02:23 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CristianTabush
BTW, you are right on the PCB part. If they don't specify KYOSHO Mini Z PCB, you can run the half 8 board- I wouldn't because knowing how people complain, the official would probably say it is inferred or whatever that you can't use one. I just rather stay on the edge of the white side.
Well on this one the I am sure the rules were posted before the half8 was released.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CristianTabush
Aside from that, enter your car, attach a sail to the roof of your car - as long as it is on a kyosho body and that body is resting on a MR01, 1.5 or 02 chassis.
Love that line!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CristianTabush
Push the boundaries- OF COURSE! but not stepping into that grey area (like BAR recently in F1).
After seeing Speed's breakdown of the rules when they re-broadcast the race with a nice pre-race show, unlike CBS, the sounded like BAR was well within the rules as written. You have to love the extra line that auto racing series' add to there rule book. The one that goes something like...'these [rules] change at any time'. I for one am glad that the FIA only made it a 2 race ban where Max Mosley wanted a full season supsension. Wouldn't it be great to see BAR come out and dominate the next race?
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Old 2005.05.23, 02:48 PM   #13
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BAR will continue to suck. They flex the rules like Ferrari, but without the political muscle to get away with it.

It's one of those things where there are the written rules, and the spirit of the rules. It's sad that the days of the gentlemen drivers are gone and you have teams trying to bend the letter of the rules so badly. BAR's excuse of "it doesn't say you have to drain ALL fuel for weigh-in" is just pathetic.
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Old 2005.05.23, 02:51 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruf
BAR will continue to suck. They flex the rules like Ferrari, but without the political muscle to get away with it.

It's one of those things where there are the written rules, and the spirit of the rules. It's sad that the days of the gentlemen drivers are gone and you have teams trying to bend the letter of the rules so badly. BAR's excuse of "it doesn't say you have to drain ALL fuel for weigh-in" is just pathetic.
Yes just like Hendricks cars being under height at the end of the race a couple of times and NASCAR still gave them the win and the points just fined them $10,000. Broken rule should have equaled DQ and no points.
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Old 2005.05.23, 03:01 PM   #15
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Apparently the only reason BAR was penalized so heavily was that they tried to maintain their "innocence". Had they owned up, Mosley was ready to just exclude the points from that race.
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