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Old 2003.08.19, 04:36 AM   #16
Cian@work
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Sorry guys, but reading this thread conjures up images of full grown men, angrily pushing tricycles backwards around back gardens, just to prove a point!!

sorry, lol

I can see where y'all are coming from though...
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Old 2003.08.19, 10:59 AM   #17
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Cian - LOL!! U're quite imaginative!

I bet u tried that secretly....
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Old 2003.08.19, 11:06 AM   #18
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Quote:
I bet u tried that secretly
Only in my Head....
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Old 2003.08.19, 11:29 AM   #19
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I like this type of debate gets us all thinking and when we think no matter how hard we try to keep it from happening we learn.

Keep it up guys but rember to keep it friendly.

My Z and I am faster because I try many of the things discussed on this site.

Thanks
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Old 2003.08.19, 03:26 PM   #20
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I was hoping it could be understood just by thinking about it but some need the phisical example.
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Old 2003.08.20, 09:27 AM   #21
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O/T for a second
What size motors are compatible with the Pro-Z chassis? Would 180 size conversion be possible? Non Mini-Z esc of course..
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Old 2003.08.20, 12:39 PM   #22
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Cian@work - I posted my reply on the pro z thread
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Old 2003.08.20, 01:17 PM   #23
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hmm. a semi truck with rig should actually be a good example. the high CG actually just helps the reaction to narrowing the rear come out faster. the only thing that changed was the rear width since the front width is fixed due to the width of the chassis.

a tricycle, you must be joking.
now you tricycle example makes it seem like your idea is a little twisted(i do have a guess as to what effect you were trying to point out which i can try to explain at the end).

"Also wide rear is not always a benefit. Heres an analogy. Ever push a little kids tricycle and take a sharp turn. It flips easy. Now push the same tricycle backwards. On a sharp turn it Won't flip. Same is true for cars. Narrow rear will reduce weight transfer. "

why it is not a good example, 2 things changed when you put a tricycle backwards, the front got wider as it now has the wide 2 wheel base and the rear got the narrow 1 wheel, wheel base. this is a BAD example because you changed 2 variables at once. the front AND rear width. now by what you said, the front of a mini-z fixed, so you narrow the rear and it will prevent it from rolling over. i have to disagree with this as i think it will fall over easier.

try it. get the tricycle and leave it facing forward so the single wheel is in front(not changing the front width). now narrow the rear. isn't this what you are saying since the front width should be a fixed width. this way, only one thing happens, the rear narrows. hmm. i wonder if it falls over easier. seems to be getting more like a bike to me. ever wonder why they made a bicycle stand.
so get a tricycle, while leaving the front the same, start narrowing the rear. if the rear began at 2 feet wide, then make it 1 foot wide and try to push it over. hmm. now try making the rear 6 inches wide,now try pushing it over. hmm. might be getting easier.

you were right, steering has nothing to do with it.

the actual concept that you may have been trying to get to was to lessen "traction roll" where you need traction to actually roll over. when something has more lateral traction than it can handle going sideways at a speed that it too much for it's width. imagine a mini-z with bad traction roll problems. now oil up the tires. (or imagine they were made of ice). the car will NOT traction roll. why because of lack of traction. (of course it won't accelerate well or turn, but the point is shown by changing only 1 thing, lessening the overall traction)

the idea of reducing the width of the rear to prevent traction roll is not the full concept. you may have been trying to get at narrowing the rear tire. like getting a rear wheel from the mini-z benz and putting a vitz tire on its outside edge instead of it's wide tire. this lessens the grip in the rear via tire width, not the width of the rear end. BUT this not the full story. this works with the front grip being lessened to a point at the same time to give the effect of the car doing more of a 4 wheel drift which is what is actually happening preventing traction roll. as overall traction is lessened and NOT by reducing the width of the front or rear ends. this happened with my yokomo yr-4 many many years back when i raced it. the narrows on all 4 corners lessened the grip vs the wides on the 4 corners and let the car drift around the turn vs. gripping and flipping over at the end of the straight.

b

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Old 2003.08.20, 02:45 PM   #24
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Thanks!

Hi bdreeft, thanks for the explanation. you just vocalized the thoughts in my head.


I followed you until "BUT this not the full story. this works with the front grip being lessened to a point at the same time "

I fully agree that narrow rear tires on the wide wheels will reduce rear grip, since the contact patch is reduced, but how does this lessen the front grip?
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Old 2003.08.20, 03:21 PM   #25
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miketre: sorry, but "this works with the front grip being lessened to a point at the same time"i didn't mean that reducing the tire size in the rear lessened front grip, but that "at the same time" meant going with lesser grip tires on the front at the same time. "to a point" means that if you lessened it to much, then you would have understeer and mess yourself up in a different way when driving.

hope that clears it up. b
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Old 2003.08.20, 05:31 PM   #26
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Duh!!!

I get you now
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Old 2003.08.20, 06:01 PM   #27
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the weight transfer is on a diagonal not perfectly side ways you seem to be missing that. Objects in motion want to stay in motion. Your car is going in a straight line at top speed then sharp turn the car still wants to go straight so it's force is projected outward roufhly at a 45 degree angle to how the car would be sitting in the turn.
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Old 2003.08.20, 06:25 PM   #28
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proz. sorry, but i am not missing that.

get your tricycle, now push it diagonally foward(in the weight transfer direction of your choice) with a little effort. see how it tips. now leave the front wheel alone, and reduce the rear of the tricycle so that the rear wheels are apart 6 inches from each rear wheel. push it diagonal forward with the same force as above. i'll bet it flips over easier. wider(track) = stable

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Old 2003.08.20, 06:26 PM   #29
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I'm also not saying alittle narrower rear or alittle widerfront will prevent traction roll it is most likly be makeing a diffrence of about 3-5 shore on the front tire. So instead of making a tire change of 10 shore that may be to much and cause the car to be a pushing pile heres alittle trick to help fine tune. The original point was that wider is not always better. Good luck with your racing.
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Old 2003.08.20, 06:38 PM   #30
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i see what your problem is

your not phisicly changing the widths for this experiment. your just pretending each end is used as a front so try it once with the narrow as a front and once as the wide as a front. Your not making a motorcycle.
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