2002.02.17, 02:37 PM
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#1
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The Unsilent Majority
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 109
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Identical Parts - everywhere!
I know I'm not the only one, as I've seen it discussed on here before, that seems to think there are 1 or 2 manufacturers somewhere in Asia making all the Hopup parts for the Mini-Z's, and then reselling them to a bunch of middlemen who slap their name on it, and jack the price up.
So, as I read through many posts on this forum, I see some people trash some brand name parts and then compliment other brands - often when they are the same, identical part, only in different packaging!
Something about this turned over in my mind today, as I began to place my order for a rear mono oil shock - made by Powerline Racing. I looked at the picture, then looked at GPM's rear mono oil shock, and also at Eagle's (I couldn't see the Eagle one very well - so I may be wrong here) and they all look the exact same! I struggled to find a difference, but the only one I could find was that the Powerline model was 1/3 the price of the other two. So, now, as I look at other parts, even parts I've had, I see even more similarities - particularly in alloy parts - steering knuckles, motor mounts, alloy lock plates, heatsinks of anykind, alloy nuts, ball diffs - most of them are the exact same!
So, why go for one brand over another? Seeing all the same parts in the marketplace now, I find it hard to follow brand loyalty. My philosophy from now on will be to buy the cheapest part available.
Now I know there will be skeptics - and that's OK. I don't know any of this for a FACT, so it's just my well-observed opinion. I will even go so far as to say that there are hopup brands that seem to be very unique and innovative - for example: Squat and and Square. I can't find anything like their parts often, and often it's hard to even find their parts! But RCRM, TopCAD, GPM, Megatech, ******, and Powerline all seem to be the same (I hope I didn't leave out any others).
If any of you think the same thing, let me know, it just kinda struck me, as I had always thought this, but wanted to think it wasn't necessarily the case .
Thanks guys,
John
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2002.02.21, 07:27 PM
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#2
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Mini-Z Pro
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Camden, SC
Posts: 94
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Identical Parts
Megatech is notorious for it! Having parts made by someone else at twice the price.
I've noticed GPM gets copied alot, seen some stuff by powerline but not a whole lot that appears to be the same as other stuff but less expensive.
I think you're right on target man!
PEACE
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Winning isn't everything...But losing isn't ANYTHING!
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2002.02.21, 08:59 PM
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#3
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Goodrich MI
Posts: 6,164
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Likely some one designed a rear end then sold the plans... copy right to all of the said companies... it could also be like Intel.. they sell the GOOD chips to IBM, the lesser chips to compaq gateway etc.. and the lower grade chips to the OEM homebrew stores...
each brand might actualy get them cheaper, like lower tolerance specifications etc.. same part same design just milled differently.. anodized by a different company, maybe a cheep batch of stock aluminum... or they are just the same .
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2002.02.21, 09:10 PM
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#4
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Mini-Z Pro
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Camden, SC
Posts: 94
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Identical Parts
Very true sir, good point.
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Winning isn't everything...But losing isn't ANYTHING!
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2002.02.22, 02:59 AM
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#5
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Mini-Zedologist - Fear me
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Bristol, England
Posts: 3,610
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Parts
MetaOrbit,
I agree, TopCAD and Eagle parts are available here in the UK.
You can't tell the difference between them. I reckon the packaging is the key difference.
Drac, as for your Intel/IBM comment, I have never heard such utter crap in my life! Obviously you don't understand the Intel to OEM supply channel, so please, for the sake of keeping these Forums accurate, refrain from making such stupid claims
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Mondo
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2002.02.22, 08:22 AM
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#6
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Goodrich MI
Posts: 6,164
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Its not a claim, i read it on the internet and we all know what we read there is all true just like hte enquirer...
Actualy it is a partial truth...
Intel rates their chips at an A B and C quality rating... and price them accordingly
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2002.02.22, 11:10 AM
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#7
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Mini-Zedologist - Fear me
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Bristol, England
Posts: 3,610
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The big picture
Drac,
OEM's buy trayed products for inetgration into 'brand name systems' (IBM, DELL, HP, Packard-Bell, AST, Compaq...)
OEM integrator CPU's have specific steppings or 'SL' numbers that the proreitary BIOS on OEM systems enable OEM's to tie customers into their specific upgrade path. Hence, if you want to do a CPU upgrade, you have to buy the CPU from the brand name manufacturer, i.e. Dell, Compaq etc.. This is more partial to Xeon based Server systems opposed to single processor workstations, although I know some workstations don't take CPU's supplied by third parties ... IBM
These are also classified as "A" class CPU's as they are shipped from Intel directly to OEM's like Dell, Compaq, IBM and so on in large quantities, as in tens of thousands at a time.
Steppings: Traditionally, in a multiprocessor environment, all steppings should be the same, but you can us a CPU with a single digit differentiator on either side of the SL denominator, hence take a classic Pentium-III CPU stepping number like: SL2SH, you can use SL1SH or SL3SH Stepping as a second CPU, although it's not an ideal workaround. If the steppings are more than 1 numerical digit apart, the CPU's don't synchronise (MultiProcessor Specification 1.4) and the system will hang..
The 'Stepping' factor comes in when the silicone 'sausages' are manufactured. No two batches have the same dilaelectric properties, there is always a slight difference in the property of the silicone before it is cut into wafers.
The differences are in internal resistance and thermal properties.
Intel assign OEM manufacturers specific steppings and these CPU's never make the open market, like being supplied distributors, retailers and so forth.
Tier-1 distributors buy the more expensive 'boxed' products that come in holographic shrink wrapped boxes. These also come with the little 'Intel Inside' sticker, a decent heatsink/fan cooling device and a certificate of authenticity. Intel guarantee that these products are "A" class CPU's.
This came about in the P54C/T (Pentium classic) and P55C/T (Pentium cwith MMX) era, as some larger eastern distributors had some customers who were buying P54/55's in large quantities and re-marking them to a higher speed, so Pentium-75MHz CPU's were remarked to 90MHz.
The 'boxed' product ensures that no remarks have taken place.
An A class CPU in theory has been kept in a reletively dust and static free environment and shipped directly from Intel to the distributor, no third parties involved..
The "B" class CPU's are identical to the A-class, except that they are sold in bulk to Tier-1 distributors and on trays, not in boxes. These are also sold to resellers via the distribution channel, but not in any packaging. They don't come with the little 'Intel Inside' decal either. These CPU's are not packed in any ESD packaging, they are just placed in trays and are fairly exposed.
These are usually sold by resellers in Brand-X clone systems.
C class CPU's are sold to Tier-1 distributors to inturn sell them to Tier-2, Tier-3 and non-Intel OEM's a-la Brand-X machines.
Intel can not assure their quality due to the amount of handling and movement of these products. These are usually bought in huge quantities (1K plus) and enjoy massive discounts, hence the lower price.
Re-marking of CPU's is now a thing of the past, due to the frequency locking being done on the actual core that has a 4K programmable SRAM partition. This code is added at QC level, when thermal testing is done.
However, good overclocking motherboards, like AOpen and ASUS using non-compliant VIA, SiS and ALi chipsets can ignore the frequency lock and allow overclocking
The bottom line is: A, B and C class CPU's are the exact same thing! There is no physical or electrical difference. The market segment, and handling method dictate the class of CPU. Of course, this is all price and quantity related too.
Then again, being a former Intel employee for almost a decade, I tend to know these things...
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Last edited by Mondo; 2002.02.22 at 11:13 AM.
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2002.02.22, 11:14 AM
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#8
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Mini-Z Chief
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: UK, Hemel Hempstead
Posts: 691
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Whoah, Nevermind the big picture, that the biggest reply on this forum I have ever seen. I think he has you there Drac
I think the second biggest reply was written by Mondo too
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Reality: Snap off...
Haynes Manual: Lightly...
Reality: Start off lightly and build up till the veins on your forehead are throbbing then re-check the manual because this can not be 'lightly' what you are doing now.
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2002.02.22, 03:00 PM
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#9
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Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 8,497
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Damn Drac, Mondo shut you DOWN!
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2002.02.22, 05:22 PM
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#10
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Goodrich MI
Posts: 6,164
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By agreeing that they are set up in a b c class?
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2002.02.22, 05:40 PM
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#11
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Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 8,497
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No - looks like he edited it before you read it, nevermind!
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2002.02.23, 05:18 AM
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#12
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Mini-Zedologist - Fear me
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Bristol, England
Posts: 3,610
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Bottom Line
The bottom line is:
Drac's statement that the big-I make different 'types' of processor is false.
There is no such thing as 'good' and 'crap' Intel CPU's
There are different classes, but the product is identical.
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Mondo
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2002.02.23, 09:40 AM
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#13
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Goodrich MI
Posts: 6,164
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No they aint different types! I know that... they just rate them different and thus you pay for the rating... its not like free . One may get the ratings for the same price but typicaly they do cost more for higher "ratings".
I know that all the chips of 'one make' come down the same line, then they test them for heat tolerances due to micro variations in the chip, wich do nothing but cause heat.. and thus rate them in MHZ speeds as well that can handled the heat, wich is why its 'sometimes' better to start with a higher mhz chip while overclocking, but cheaper to start with a lower one...
In any case it was a bad example for use for the Mini-Z parts, to far offtopic .
PS. This is Mondos FAVORITE web site: http://www.amdzone.com hehehehehe
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2002.02.23, 11:11 AM
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#14
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Mini-Zedologist - Fear me
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Bristol, England
Posts: 3,610
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AMDzone?
Drac,
LOL! AMDzone? Neat..
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