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Old 2008.12.25, 03:00 AM   #1
ianc
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Tell me what makes your motors great? (long)

I never liked the idea of just buying a motor, and have preferred to wind and assemble my own.

However, I find it difficult to get consistent results, even using consistent build and assembly techniques, and parts. I have bought similar (or the same) components, followed the same procedures, and gotten some screamers, and some dogs. What am I missing?

Lately I've been starting with the ATM M1 Endbell case. This offers ball bearings, and neo mags. A pretty solid basis.

For the armature, I've been buying either cheap 130 hobby motors from Radio Shack, or stage one X-Mod motors for.99 from Atomic Mods just for the arm to rewind. I know some will say these arms are inferior. Where then do I purchase better ones?

Once the arm is out of the donor motor, I unwind it, and wrap 35-45 turns with 30G motor wire. I work slowly and carefully to get a tight wind, but don't torture myself with pattern winding. I carefully polish the com with some very fine wet sand paper on a cylindrical mandrel.

For fitment, I measure the distance between the two inside seating surfaces of the can's ball bearings (assembled), and adjust the arm's freeplay to ~2 mm by moving the brass seating bearing on the arm shaft below the winds up or down on the shaft.

I'll lay a cap between positive and can, negative and can, and between pos and neg.

I'll typically bed the brushes by running 2 single cells dead, one after another. I do this dry, and not in water.

As I said before, sometimes I end up with screamers, and sometimes with dogs. My 934 goes like a scalded cat, but my GT40 has never been anything but asthmatic.

I've tested magnet strength by lifting various objects with great motors and poor ones assembled using these techniques, and they seem about equal in strength.

I've also wondered about the voltage delivered by the car's boards, but the GT40 was actually delivering about .2 volts more than the 934 to the motor.

Why then am I getting these strange results? What factor in the assembly am I missing that is obviously swinging the scales randomly from great to mediocre?

What has anyone observed in their own motor building experiments that enhanced or undermined performance? Please lay some insight on me or I may just give up and buy X-Speeds or Stock-R's. Thanks,

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Old 2008.12.25, 12:41 PM   #2
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While I have nothing to offer in the way of advice or an explanation I found your techniques interesting and have also concluded that not every motor/even engine is the same, just as you have.

I have had a very long following of the single cylinder ATV engine building world, and have seen alot of work by various well known engine builders. They all have their own techniques of course, but I have read cases like this many times over. It's interesting how the same processes followed the same exact way, using the same tools in the same place can create different engines. It's funny how the every engine turns out differently and has its own power characteristics in the way of where it builds power and how much.

I know electric motors don't have as many building variables to effect the performance like a gasoline engine does but its just ironic how its the same for both. How engine porting and valve work are done almost works the same as how the motor is wound and in what manner. Its just interesting to think about.

Sorry I have nothing to help...it was just something I wanted to point out. I have had very little experience in tuning a 130 can electric motor, but I have experimented with less than thrilling results.
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Old 2008.12.25, 03:37 PM   #3
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One thing that you didnt address was timing. I dont know if the RS or stage 1 armatures would have proper timing. This will make a pretty big difference.

There used to be a couple of sites where you could order motor supplies; armatures, cans, wire... but they are not around anymore. I believe they were mainly for the Xmod boom, but we reaped the benefits of having them around.
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Old 2008.12.25, 05:21 PM   #4
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Stage 1 xmod armatures could be modified to get better forward speed by adjusting the armature timing.(as EMU mentioned) This thread from xmodworld used to have some good pictures but you can still read through it and use mnm's timing angle chart to adjust those armatures you rewind.

http://www.xmodworld.com/modules.php...er=asc&start=0

Hope it helps...
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Old 2008.12.25, 06:36 PM   #5
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Pattern winding a couple armatures might get you more consistent results -- at the very least you'll be running a more scientific test. When you wind without any sort of pattern, you never really know if some of the magnetic fields generated by the coils are going to work with or against each other, and so there's a random experimental error that you can't really track down. You might've gotten such variations through a combination of several differences, including timing, winding tightness, commutator quality (I've gotten a motor with one dead pole on the comm before...), etc.

Timing is important for those cheapo armatures though, if you look at the armatures closely sometimes you'll get an armature with rather advanced timing, and then the next one will have retarded timing. Advanced is fine, retarded is, well.... retarded.
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Old 2008.12.25, 11:48 PM   #6
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Pattern winding and timing are both very important if you want to keep the motors consistent. Another issue which wasn't discussed was motor bearings. I have had the occasional brand new motor can arrive with some bad bearings, and this can seriously alter motor performance. The last thing would be the type of armature that you are using. Some of the older xmods armatures had a slightly larger diameter shaft, so if it requires any sort of force to push the armature through the motor bearings then you are going to get some binding issues, which again, will cause some serious problems. As for what makes my motors great, that's Top Secret
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Old 2008.12.26, 10:22 AM   #7
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Building, testing and tuning. I spend ALOT of time in the testing/tuning stages and I usually don't call a motor finished until its perfect for my standards at least. If a motor doesn't go the way I think it should I check these main points:

1) That the wire is properly soldered onto the tabs. If there isn't enough conducty, then the motor will barely run, or run slower than road grader on dope. Make sure you have the most conductivity by scraping the red/green/whatever color enamel off all sides of the winding wire. This ensures maxximum conductivity.

2) That there is not binding with the bearings/bushings or that the armature is in good shape (I've had bent armature shafts before). I simply set two razors on a level surface and let the armature free-roll. Then I check for imperfections. To see is your bearings are good, stick the armature into one of the bearings and spin it. It should spin for a few seconds. If it doesn't, lube the bearings and try again. If a bearing is faulty, then you'll have to change it.

3) The way the brushes sit on the commutator can also retard/advance timing. Also, if the brush gets mashed up or bent, and its not contacting the commutator like it did, then there won't be enough conductivity, and the motor won't run, or it will run reallly crappily.

Read into the tut that Cowboy posted. It helped me out lots. As for secrets, well thats really something I can't tell if I wanna continue selling motors, lol. Every builder has his tricks, lol!

Later,
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Old 2008.12.26, 02:02 PM   #8
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Gentlemen, thanks for the input.

I actually have experimented with timing before by removing the wire from the arm, then removing the piece containing the solder tabs, then superglueing it back on to advance it. Based on the diagram from the X-Mods link, I would say I got about 10 deg. I got some changes as listed, with less torque, more RPM, and a hotter running motor that eats up batteries quicker. Personally, I prefer the torque as it helps you accelerate quicker down the straight upon exiting the corner and that's where you pick up lots of time, assuming your corner speed is in the ball park.

I have not really made a habit of checking bearings, but I will do that, and I will also carefully check the as-built timing of a new arm when I go to wind it. Guess I just assumed these factors would be fairly consistent from the manufacturer, but that's probably a very bad assumption.

The idea of poor connectivity with the solder joints of the wires occurred to me, and I'm pretty careful about getting a good joint there.

Again, I appreciate the comments, but feel that perhaps you may be guarding your secrets a little too closely? I may be wrong, but I don't think there are actually that many people who race these things who will actually go to the trouble of trying to wind and build their own motors. It's just too easy to shell $20-30 to buy one, and certainly much less labor intensive...

Has anyone used the ATM M1 endbell cans before? I have seen that ATM offers springs of various tensions and wondered if anyone has tried them and what results you've obtained?

I don't particularly care for the brush design that comes with the M1, where the initial brush contact surface is a small finger which widens to a square. I've had some motors that worked well initially, but then drastically lost performance when the thin part of the brush has worn away and it doesn't seat properly on the com afterwards. I've taken to filing away the small finger then bedding the brush from there.

Any opinions regarding immersing the motor in water during this process? Does it accelerate the seating of the brushes? I wondered about it, but thought it might cause havoc with the bearings, particularly sealed ones.

Thanks again for the help and insight!

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Old 2008.12.26, 11:53 PM   #9
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ianc - Flash, color0, EMU, and RedSXmodder brought up most if not all of the important points in what determines a motor's performance. Just to reiterate some, from my personal experience with building custom Mini-Z motors:
1.) Making sure the commutator and the armature shaft & poles are balanced & not warped is important, which is something you already do ianc. Not that many shafts and their poles are warped, it would be a critical flaw. I know some guys used to balance the poles of the armature after winding, some still do by testing for balance and drilling-away some material from the offending pole(s). PN epoxy-balances some arms. The balancing of the arm after winding I have been told from my own personal motor advisor and grandmaster motor maker is that this final step of making sure the completed arm is perfectly balanced is not necessary as it makes minute-to-no real difference in performance. The critical thing is that the bare armature and comm are not warped.
2.) Brush contact with the commutator should be a high priority. Make sure the brushes are pushing against (seated on) the comm on both sides evenly (Not kock-eyed);
They should have decent-to-good tension against the comm, but not too-too much. If you notice deeper than normal grooving in the comm after using the motor some then there's a culprit right thurr that can cause bad things to happen i.e.> poor performance. Recently I was testing/breaking-in an Atomic AD Stock with new brushes but the comm was grooved pretty bad from the original brushes having too much tension. Shortly into the motor break-in, all of a sudden the motor began pulling 3...4...6+ Amps and smoking.....
Speaking of brushes: I personally really dig the Atomic M1 cans a lot. The brush tension being able to be adjusted via swapping springs is purrty cool, and can change the motor's power output. On one Stock-R I have, I went from the stock silver (Soft) brush springs to gold (Hard, which are really medium since the next step up are Black springs which are Extra Hard) and the motor started pulling a couple tenths of an Amp more juice And Rpm's increased slightly along with torque - The motor was even punchier than the Stock-R is, well, stock. This can be handy if you want to make a high-RPM armature have a bit more punch.
Also the M1 cans' brushes are designed in an "L" shape for a reason - They slightly advance the motor's timing(Only for Mini-z's. Mini-z's need the motor to spin counter-clockwise for forward. On Xmods (Evo's at least) moving forward means the motor spins clockwise). The M1 brushes also are set 180 degrees from each other making for much more accurate, even pressure against the comm; On "regular" motors like PN & Kyosho, and the older Atomic/EGR motor cans the brushes have a "swingarm" type tension where each brush pushes against the comm at an angle. (Still, I do like and use many PN and older-Atomic motors - An good motor is a good motor)
3.) Speaking of advanced/retarded timing, that's another key thing that can make a motor a screamer or a dud. For simplicity I usually just make sure the armature's comm is timed neutral. As I already mentioned, when used on an M1 can a neutral armature actually will be slightly advanced when spinning counter-clockwise due to the M1's "L" brushes.
4.) Motor cans with bearings should spin smooth and free. A crappy bushing or bearing will kill a fast motor and possibly your FETs, because with the added resistance the motor will pull more Amps. Usually without you knowing it if not checked for properly.
5.) A pattern wind is best. Time well spent IMHO.
6.) Usually a bad connection with the comm will make the motor not run at all. Make sure the enamel wire is stripped at the comm tabs and wrapped firmly.
I never tried water break-in. I almost always do break-ins using 1 Nimh AAA (1.5v) or 2 Nimh AAA's in series (3.0v). Or I use my MuchMore Motor Master at those settings. I run the motor for up to an hour depending on brush type (carbon,silver). I use comm drops to lube the comm during break-in. Only a dab'll do ya!! I don't use comm drops so much for racing though. The Voodoo drops work good for comm drops, even though they are more of a contact cleaner than a comm-lubricant. I don't think I ever did a totally-dry break-in. Maybe back in the day but I don't remember. I should give it a try just to see. But me thinks the heat from friction + sparking would be better subdued using some form of comm/brush lube. Keeps the comm from glazing. Nice
Sorry for the novel. Hope this helps
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Old 2008.12.27, 02:33 AM   #10
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Hi Felix, thanks for the novel! Let me add some thoughts to your novel then.

Quote:
this final step of making sure the completed arm is perfectly balanced is not necessary as it makes minute-to-no real difference in performance. The critical thing is that the bare armature and comm are not warped.
Agreed. I believe in particular that the surface and concentricity of the comm (ie. consistent brush contact) is very important to performance. But how does one check it? To me, the greatest possible point of concern is the condition of the 3 petals of the comm. If they are bent or skewed slightly, I have not hit on a way of trueing them short of a lathe...

Quote:
On one Stock-R I have, I went from the stock silver (Soft) brush springs to gold (Hard, which are really medium since the next step up are Black springs which are Extra Hard)
What is your opinion on the difference in comm wear you're experiencing with the harder springs? Do you typically mount the spring above or below the pigtail? Do you rotate them (turn upside down) periodically? I do this when I can hear that reverse is sounding better than forward...

Quote:
the M1 cans' brushes are designed in an "L" shape for a reason - They slightly advance the motor's timing
Not more than a degree or two I shouldn't think, plus that will go away as the brushes wear...

Quote:
Still, I do like and use many PN and older-Atomic motors
Me too! I'm running a couple of the older-style cans right now; hadda drill 'em both. I agree on the superiority of the M1's basic design, but to me, a distinct performance (not longevity) advantage is not demonstrated over the earlier brush mounting method. Also, those damned tabs on the M1's side to hold down the endbell! Always way too short! @^%^$#@

Quote:
I usually just make sure the armature's comm is timed neutral
Yeah, I think if it was too far out I'd notice, but I haven't made a habit of checking it. I would tend to think something <3 deg would have minimal impact, but 10-12 would be noticeable?

Quote:
5.) A pattern wind is best. Time well spent IMHO.
Good lord! I just can't take it! I'm already sweating and cursing after doing a non-pattern 45. My hands hurt too much for that. I'll not do it! Careful yes, painstakingly pattern, no!

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Old 2008.12.28, 01:56 PM   #11
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Hi ianc,

- For the comm, you are correct. The only way I know of to true a comm is via a lathe. I had someone do this for me on a handwound armature I had with a slightly out-of-true comm, he shaved just a hair off the top layer of the comm's "petals". I would have to say if the comm is bad enough out-of-true, and you don't have access to a 130-motor comm lathe, then replace it with another comm from another armature.

- I haven't yet used the Stock-R I modified enough to see if there is any adverse comm wear from the harder M1 brushes. I am not sure what you mean by "Do I mount the spring above or below the pigtail?". If you mean how do I have the spring resting on the back of the brush, then I would say from my experience it doesn't matter. If I have interpreted your question wrong please explain further if you can.
If by "rotate" you mean do I "flip" the brushes periodically, then no I do not. If by "rotate" you mean do I just swap the positive+negative side brushes once in a while, I haven't done that either. You could try it though.
Even though the shape of brushes begins to fade after wear, for Mini-Z applications the brushes are still meant to only be installed in the M1 can in the way Atomic has them. That is unless you want to make the car faster in reverse, like for Xmod applications. Then you could "flip" the brushes for faster "forward" direction spinning clockwise.

- The M1 brushes do only slightly-advance the timing, you are right. But nevertheless the motor is advanced counter-clockwise. Albeit ever-so-slightly.

- The amount of the advantage gained from the M1 can I can't say. I agree that the simpler, older Atomic motors are very effective. To see the difference between a properly tuned M1 motor and an "old-style" Atomic motor both with the exact same armature you would need a Motor Master. The difference in performance would be very subtle. And I too can never get the M1 endbell tabs to crimp-down the endbell securely. I just do my best to try and make sure the endbell won't come off.

- It's hard for me to say how big of an impact advancing the timing makes on all armatures, and at what range of degree the timing needs to be advanced to see positive results. With the size of these armatures being so small, even a tiny movement of the comm can be enough to get a result. A teensy-tiny turn of the comm can be upwards of 10, even 15-20 degrees, so I don't suspect I would even notice a 1-3 degree advance on these size armatures. But to answer your question, does advancing the timing make a difference?> Yes. Might you need a Motor Master to see the increase in Rpm's?> Yes.

- As my Motor Grandmaster teacher tells me, cramping of your hand after EACH POLE is a sign your doing it right. I guess you have to be a lil' masochistic to be a pro motor winder.
Keep the wire tight, and make sure you wrap the wire in the same direction around each pole, and that shouldn't be too shabby. (Note: I can't make good pattern winds either. But if you can, a pattern is better than a non-pattern.)
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Old 2008.12.30, 04:57 PM   #12
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Thanks for the tips Felix.

Cleaning and oiling the bearings seems to help, but that is more a maintenance-type thing.

I like to remove the magnets from the can and insert the arm, then put the end bell on and spin the shaft. I guess if the bearings are good, but not true to the axis of the arm, you can get some binding issues, so spinning the arm with the can assembled (minus magnets) seems like a good test.

One other thing: those little plastic spacers that go on the ends of the arm: if you use these, make sure their outer diameter is not larger than the bearing's inside race. If they contact the outer (stationary) race, you'll get some friction there.

I had not thought previously of the advance obtained by the design of the M1's brushes. I have never bought an ATM motor, just the cans, so the brushes don't come installed, and the advance factor didn't occur to me.

I still like filing the finger off the brushes for reliability reasons, but the X-Mod arms are easy to advance slightly as they don't seem to have a tab and slot mechanism to hold the com in place like some other arms. Just carefully grab them with a needle nose and rotate a little bit CCW,

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Old 2008.12.30, 11:00 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ianc View Post
Thanks for the tips Felix.

Cleaning and oiling the bearings seems to help, but that is more a maintenance-type thing.

I like to remove the magnets from the can and insert the arm, then put the end bell on and spin the shaft. I guess if the bearings are good, but not true to the axis of the arm, you can get some binding issues, so spinning the arm with the can assembled (minus magnets) seems like a good test.
- Cleaning & oiling the bearings does indeed help. Sometimes I like to take an empty motor can (sans magnets or with 'em still in, doesn't much matter) and dip the can into motor cleaner/degreaser/solvent. I also pop the bearing out the endbell and soak that bearing too. I like to run my cars' wheel & chassis bearings "dry" a lot, I find the performance increase is very good. Some people don't like the noise of dry bearings (The car will run louder without any lube to dull the noise of the spinning bearings); Some people don't like to risk wearing-out their bearings prematurely. My thing is, even the thinnest bearing lube I have, which is like water, can create drag on bearings; Just a tiny amount of drag, yes, but run dry bearings a little while and soon you'll want all your cars runnin' dry. Anyway, back to the motor - Most sealed motor bearings are grease-lubed and cleaning the grease out the motor can's bearings helps the armature spin easier. You can choose to run the motor bearings dry, but a tiny bit of a good thin lube is a good thing for motor bearings since motors get a lot hotter during a run than the bearings on a Mini-Z chassis do.

- Spinning the armature with the can assembled minus magnets is a great thing to do to check for binding and poor bearings. Clean the motor's bearings like I said above and you should see the armature spin even faster and smoother with less drag.

Quote:
One other thing: those little plastic spacers that go on the ends of the arm: if you use these, make sure their outer diameter is not larger than the bearing's inside race. If they contact the outer (stationary) race, you'll get some friction there.
- Another good thing to check for.

Quote:
I had not thought previously of the advance obtained by the design of the M1's brushes. I have never bought an ATM motor, just the cans, so the brushes don't come installed, and the advance factor didn't occur to me.

I still like filing the finger off the brushes for reliability reasons, but the X-Mod arms are easy to advance slightly as they don't seem to have a tab and slot mechanism to hold the com in place like some other arms. Just carefully grab them with a needle nose and rotate a little bit CCW,
- If you haven't purchased a Stock-R or Chili I understand why you might not have noticed all the M1 subtleties then. If you look at the M1's endbell, on the back there's a picture of how the brushes should be installed: One side (either pos or neg) with the "lip" on the top, the other side with the lip on the bottom, so the brushes kind of "cup" around the comm.

Again, hope I offered some tips to help get the most performance out of your motors.
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Old 2008.12.31, 05:21 PM   #14
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If you look at the M1's endbell, on the back there's a picture of how the brushes should be installed
You know, I had another look at this last nite, and when I looked at a couple of my older motors, I had not noticed the diagram and installed the brushes sideways! ie., so that the long side of the finger was perpendicular to the comm's axis, rather than parallel to it. I installed a couple of new brushes (the correct way) in one and broke them in with a couple cells. Haven't had a chance to test it yet, but it surely did spin up nicely for just one cell!

That's definitely an eye-opener, so thanks for that!

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Old 2008.12.31, 05:33 PM   #15
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Here's one more question while I'm at it: magnets.

Sometimes you get the situation where you have an unmarked set of magnets and you install them in the can and the motor will end up spinning backwards from what is expected when it's wired correctly. Is only one magnet responsible for this reversal, or do both need to be installed incorrectly?

Some magnets have markings along the top to indicate that side is supposed to be 'out', but some don't. I guess it must have to do with the S & N poles of the magnets. What happens if one magnet is installed correctly, but the other is upside down?

Is there a way to test for the correct orientation of both magnets before installing them in the can?

Great thread! I'm getting a lot out of it,

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Mini-Z Hop-Ups, Mini-Z Parts, Mini Inferno Hop-Ups, Mini Inferno Parts, M18 Hop-Ups, M18 Parts