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Old 2019.06.16, 09:39 PM   #1
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Is this a motor thing, or an EVO issue? Does the EVO provide more top end than the older ESC? I had always run the PN 3500 V3 in my kyosho stock LM car before I swapped it over for superstock duty, and felt that my 70t car had more top end, but less power off the corner.

When i had raced with you in the hotel conference room, i switched to my brushed car simply because I had no straight speed. Is my PN V3 a dog motor, or is it the EVO electronics that are drastically increasing the performance of the motors? Are racers changing rotors, adjusting ESC timing settings? These are all things that can contribute considerably to performance. How do we tech this?

Perhaps the competitiveness in the kyosho stock class is outgrowing the spirit of the class, and its real purpose as an entry level sportsman style class. I don't want to make hard judgements, but the goal of such a class is that a racer can get up to speed with minimal changes to a stock RWD model car. If the bar is set to needing an EVO, 3500V3... then perhaps discussion and evaluation needs to be made on the structure of the class including the EVO... Perhaps those cars should be directed towards 70 comp and have the kyosho stock as a brushed only class to reduce headache of balancing the power?

Im not trying to jump the gun, but open discussion on the matter and see where everyone stands with it.
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Old 2019.06.17, 06:09 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMU View Post
Is this a motor thing, or an EVO issue? Does the EVO provide more top end than the older ESC? I had always run the PN 3500 V3 in my kyosho stock LM car before I swapped it over for superstock duty, and felt that my 70t car had more top end, but less power off the corner.

When i had raced with you in the hotel conference room, i switched to my brushed car simply because I had no straight speed. Is my PN V3 a dog motor, or is it the EVO electronics that are drastically increasing the performance of the motors? Are racers changing rotors, adjusting ESC timing settings? These are all things that can contribute considerably to performance. How do we tech this?

Perhaps the competitiveness in the kyosho stock class is outgrowing the spirit of the class, and its real purpose as an entry level sportsman style class. I don't want to make hard judgements, but the goal of such a class is that a racer can get up to speed with minimal changes to a stock RWD model car. If the bar is set to needing an EVO, 3500V3... then perhaps discussion and evaluation needs to be made on the structure of the class including the EVO... Perhaps those cars should be directed towards 70 comp and have the kyosho stock as a brushed only class to reduce headache of balancing the power?

Im not trying to jump the gun, but open discussion on the matter and see where everyone stands with it.


All good calls EMU. I can see no need to try to back door a class in order to improve performance just to make sales of a better part. This is exactly how 1/10th scale got out of control in the first place. Run the motors as manufactured. No changes. Period!! Aside from the fact that the VE motor is more reliable and requires much less maintenance there is no need to futz with it.
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Old 2019.06.17, 12:28 PM   #3
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You’ll never get back to brushed only class. It’s simply far to restrictive as the only for sale chassis that is brushed are sports left in the market and RWD FHSS and the legacy cars still in use, which is becoming fewer and fewer with each race i attend.

I have the EVO board in many cars and there is a noticeable gain in performance from the EVO board. My impetus for changing to EVO is driven by interoperability of brushed/brushless more than performance, but that’s just my motivation. It’s just my opinion but the EVO board is the genesis for the notable gains of the V3. Otherwise, like any other motor, you get good ones and bad ones. I’ve not had the best of luck in that regard with PN brushless motors. I find the V3 overall improved over previous versions but the GL3500 is stronger than earlier PN versions as well.

I would be OK with not including EVO electronics in stock class. I would have to tweak an existing ASF chassis to get back to stock but it’s understandable. I would honestly like to go back to stock motors as well but there simply isn’t support from the drivers to do so and all the regional clubs have bumped up to 70/3500 for stock complaining the stock motors burned up in anything more than 5 minute mains. As much as I like the box stock motor class, it would drive more away, than bring in. See also points made just below that contribute to the problem.

If a club is dealing with a large contingent of inexperienced drivers, a dedicated stock motor class would be helpful if, and it’s a big if, you could convince them that slower is better. That is and remains the biggest problem in the scale, everyone wants to go as fast or faster than they can reasonably control the car. The prevailing opinion is to go big and dial down speed vs. learning to drive at the full extent of a slower motor. I would imagine this is consistent problem at all scales however exacerbated with the 6” size of mini-z and generally smaller tracks on average.

There is no reasonable manner to tech all aspects of car now that you can tweak board and transmitter settings. You are never going to have that level of control and or ability to regulate unless you further restrict transmitters which no one wants to do either. Now that anyone with bluetooth phone and adapter practically, can adjust board ICS settings, there are simply too many variables to contend with.

I for one would like to see a pathway to get the Atomic, GL, Xpower cars in stock class as well as the same is no longer dominated by Kyosho and the term Mini-Z has simply become the general reference for the scale in the same manner that Velcro is what all hook and loop closures or fasteners are called, despite actually being a brand name.
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Old 2019.06.17, 03:34 PM   #4
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You bring up quite a few good points. In general the scope of kyosho stock is targeted towards newer racers, to be able to get them on track and racing as quick and inexpensive as possible. In my mind, the goal of the class is not necessarily to be the primary focus class for competitive racing. With that said, the class generally makes really good racing because there are few opportunities to open the setup window or gain an equipment advantage over other racers. This seems to be changing a bit with the improvements made with the EVO.

The scope of my post is my view alone, and I do not speak for the rules of the race upcoming, but it may have influence in future events as we move forward. My personal opinion would be to have the kyosho stock class as an entry level sportsman class with no professional racers, as a development class per se... possibly keep it as a brushed only class? Or do away with it altogether, and have the cars run in the 70 comp class. The two classes being so close in performance, is a little redundant, however there are considerable differences in pace due to gearing restriction above all else. The mr03 chassis with only a disc damper and t-plate for upgrade has excellent cornering performance, that the real performance difference between 70 comp and kyosho stock comes down to the gearing restriction since just about everyone uses a disc damper in the class.

I have mixed feelings about the place of kyosho stock currently, as the discrepancy between gearing of brushless vs brushed motors varies between motor and electronics used. What is apparent, is that we cannot please everyone, but my general thought is that we should not be pushing the latest and greatest product as a necessity to run the class. It boils down to what can be set as the base standard to run the class, and when buy in becomes $350 for the entry level class, vs the $175 for the RTR, it makes me think that the scope of the class needs to be set towards the entry level drivers on entry level equipment.
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Old 2019.06.17, 09:48 PM   #5
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I think that stock has been pushed to the limit at our club. I have not won a box stock race in weeks. I may get one 6.9 second lap in a ten minute race while many of our guys are getting multiple 6.7 second laps. Tommy Bond is lapping me in a ten minute race. I need to build a new car next fall to compete with them in box stock.

I agree that these cars just need to be ran in a comp. class. That is not going to happen though. All the things that Ray said in his last post is the new norm for anyone that wants to be competitive in box stock.
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Old 2019.06.18, 06:23 AM   #6
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"Key words", box stock!! Not intended to pick or criticize but failing eyesight and maybe reflexes and glasses have something to do with it as well. Will more motor make it better or just exacerbate the situation?
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Old 2019.06.18, 09:48 AM   #7
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No one is using the term ‘box’ stock... Box stock only works if there is sufficient numbers and dedication to the ‘slower’ class, neither of which are likely given my many years of working out of both basement clubs and retail stores. ‘Box’ stock classes are a fluke, not the norm. It may have worked had Kyosho not disappeared post 2004 race venues in NA and had not most hobby shops gone under post 2008.
I’ve covered this ground already regarding the multitude of issues a club has to contend with regarding it’s choice for stock class. Unless your running in a small group and all have the same kit or in a retail environment in which a store needs a class to ‘buy and race’, box stock days are long gone. As far as I know, Hobby Works Fairfax stock using the white End bell motor was the last run of truly ‘stock’ motor class. Even then, the overwhelming complaints of more than 5 minute races on stock motors and need to incorporate brushless muddied the waters to the point where were at now, 70t/3500 as the new ‘stock’. Hell, if you look at most other club rules, what is considered stock is more 70comp/mod for us.
The quandary boils down to how do you maintain a level of stock that keeps costs as low as possible while also allowing for the greater participation of the varied people and kits brought to compete? The logical answer we’ve reached is to limit changes to greatest extent practical and try to level the field with regard to motor/gearing to address the absolute mess Kyosho has made of their electronics across the lineup. This continues to completely ignore the 3rd party vendors whom are on pace to really surpass Kyosho with kit offerings which is to our own detriment as a scale. ‘Box’ stock as an answer only works in rare cases and limited venues. Everyone will get a good sense of this with the second coming of the Cup series with its strict limits on slower classes. I think most were not around for the initial run of the Cup series and experience has been lost. Anyone that manages a club will know the minute you make one exception to the rules it continues to erode the intent of the class and the more exceptions you make, the worse it gets. I don’t always like being the one to say no, but at times it has to be done to maintain the intent of the class and hope that it’s not seen as a slight or that i’ve Ignored or discarded opinions as that’s really not the case. I’ve at times really made some people very upset, to the point i’ve Had to block people and or they have left the club. It’s part of the headache and stress that comes with managing a venue that i believe most take for granted as they just show up, race and leave, while all the work behind the scene to make it happen and make it hopefully enjoyable is for the most part overlooked. Anyone who’s managed an event can attest to the amount of work involved behind the scene. It’s a great deal of work to make sure others have a good time. Now think about what has to go into picking and managing a set of classes all the while trying to maintain the integrity of those classes while at the same time not watch them fizzle out. It’s a game of chess really in which you have to think strategically and more long term view vs. immediate desire.
I’m not in favor of banning the experienced drivers from stock class either. I’ve seen what this does over time and the model for success that worked out Hobby Works included ‘experts’ as this demonstrates to all that a stock car is plenty capable of racing at a highly competitive level, which would otherwise be experienced as the ‘newb’ class that is predominantly looks down on and thought lesser of, meaning not equitable. I admit what worked at Hobby Works isn’t the answer for everyone, it simply worked for us in the space we had and complemented by the drivers we had. When you get the experts competing with (not misunderstood to mean against as they will practically speaking not end up in same mains) and assisting the new drivers, everyone wins. You also then have to define what ‘expert’ is. We all get a sense of who that may be but how do you quantify that in a measurable way? How is this equitable in limiting the ability of an expert to enjoy the simple pleasure of a simple class? I’ve often considered quitting all classes but stock and HFAY myself, still do today.

Lets also not forget there is another tool in the arsenal to control speed, the track . It is my opinion that the success of the stock class at Hobby Works was in part due to limiting the track size to HFAY size or slightly larger (less the 3 wide L). The track plays a huge roll in limiting the practical ability to utilize speeds and modified setups. Thankfully for us in this region, there are any number of places one can go to get that itch for larger layouts and faster pace tracks.

Apologies for my many references to Hobby Works as this has been my main push on stock class in a retail location. Now that i’m Back in another Hobby Works, will be re-evaluating the current rules however back to HFAY tracks.
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Old 2019.06.18, 08:32 PM   #8
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My couple of cents in a great discussion. From the get go Box Stock class in any scale of RC racing has pursued 2 intentions 1) lowest cost Possible 2) least amount of maintenance & tuning needed which in turn shifts the balance of competition towards on the wheel & trigger driving skills rather than tuning skills. For this era of mini-z we are going through only RWD’s with original KT-531 radio falls in that category. As mentioned the cost of an EVO car + Rx + Body + Even a regular KT-531 + Kyosho brushed motor (needed for boxStock) + ICS cable ( to be able to switch EVO to brushed) is well over double the price of a RWD. Furthermore the far superior EVO’s ESC and not often mentioned superior holding power of the EVO’s servo with sophisticated adjustment capabilities eliminates it as fair competition for RWD’s.

The following has already been discussed so it’s just a repeat for those who might have not come across it yet but True bare bones box stock’s chassis performance is not considered hobby grade …the conversation starts with a Near Box Stock class ( NBS) allowing reversing the original pins / open tires ( but spec would be better with short K fronts -to eliminate need to true & tire testing) / open T-bar / open front Springs / Open any plastic Kyosho mount of any WB or configuration / Open any kyosho plastic or carbon fiber friction plates or discs that fit any of the plastic motor mounts / For sure keep the kyosho motor in there but maybe allow the AWD version also which has more torque…etc etc.

Also very important to have to all driver levels up to full expert/pro to participate in this class. One of THE most heart pumping & memorable races I participated in was back in 2010 box stock class at Kyosho Headquarters with all 6 drivers in the a-main finishing on the same lap !! Making signing up in NBS class mandatory before one can sign up for other classes or awarding bonus points in other classes for podium position finished in NBS class or making the NBS class the qualifying round for the other faster classes could be things to be considered to keep the experts & pros running NBS. If only Novice & sportsman drivers are to enter NBS then from the first time they put their car down on the rack the only possible goal they can have is to graduate to the faster classes when they improve which usually means they think hop ups will take them there which then disqualifies their car for the NBS class in a hurry…its pretty easy to believe that's a big part of what kills any box stock class that tries to stay afloat but can’t…that being the faster drivers around only want to run the faster classes.
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Old 2019.06.19, 01:20 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mugler View Post
My couple of cents in a great discussion. From the get go Box Stock class in any scale of RC racing has pursued 2 intentions 1) lowest cost Possible 2) least amount of maintenance & tuning needed which in turn shifts the balance of competition towards on the wheel & trigger driving skills rather than tuning skills. For this era of mini-z we are going through only RWD’s with original KT-531 radio falls in that category. As mentioned the cost of an EVO car + Rx + Body + Even a regular KT-531 + Kyosho brushed motor (needed for boxStock) + ICS cable ( to be able to switch EVO to brushed) is well over double the price of a RWD. Furthermore the far superior EVO’s ESC and not often mentioned superior holding power of the EVO’s servo with sophisticated adjustment capabilities eliminates it as fair competition for RWD’s.

The following has already been discussed so it’s just a repeat for those who might have not come across it yet but True bare bones box stock’s chassis performance is not considered hobby grade …the conversation starts with a Near Box Stock class ( NBS) allowing reversing the original pins / open tires ( but spec would be better with short K fronts -to eliminate need to true & tire testing) / open T-bar / open front Springs / Open any plastic Kyosho mount of any WB or configuration / Open any kyosho plastic or carbon fiber friction plates or discs that fit any of the plastic motor mounts / For sure keep the kyosho motor in there but maybe allow the AWD version also which has more torque…etc etc.

Also very important to have to all driver levels up to full expert/pro to participate in this class. One of THE most heart pumping & memorable races I participated in was back in 2010 box stock class at Kyosho Headquarters with all 6 drivers in the a-main finishing on the same lap !! Making signing up in NBS class mandatory before one can sign up for other classes or awarding bonus points in other classes for podium position finished in NBS class or making the NBS class the qualifying round for the other faster classes could be things to be considered to keep the experts & pros running NBS. If only Novice & sportsman drivers are to enter NBS then from the first time they put their car down on the rack the only possible goal they can have is to graduate to the faster classes when they improve which usually means they think hop ups will take them there which then disqualifies their car for the NBS class in a hurry…its pretty easy to believe that's a big part of what kills any box stock class that tries to stay afloat but can’t…that being the faster drivers around only want to run the faster classes.
I agree with Mugler's take on NBS class completely. Especially the part about all racers being required to sign up for NBS first, then whatever HFAY or modified class after. My club is basically garage racers that solely do HFAY, so we all have HFAY cars, but I keep a NBS car and KT 19 ( unfortunately I have a sports2 instead of the newer RWD) for my occasional trips to race with PDX. They used to have a similar rule, not sure if they still do. It seems this allows a fair and affordable entry point, while still allowing die-hards to spend lots of money on all the go-fast bits they want to.
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Old 2019.06.24, 02:01 PM   #10
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Box Stock Class Discussions

Discuss any subject relating to Box Stock and Near Box Stock Class Racing.
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Old 2019.06.24, 02:02 PM   #11
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Discussion moved here from an un-related thread:

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I know in the larger scales, and to a certain extent this scale, there is a feeling that pro drivers should run modified and not run in the stock classes. In a sense, once drivers are considered pro level, there is a feeling that by running in stock theyare beating up average racers and taking the wins in the easier class rather than reaching in modified with the big boys... In this scale there are very few pro drivers, mostly because deals are not offered in a similar fashion to the larger scales. There are plenty of fast racers in this scale, and many have pro level driving ability despite not having a ride.

I race at a bunch of different locations, and there has been some feedback at some locations about the fast guys scaring away racers by running in the "box stock" class... I think it boils down to the idea that a chance for a win is taken off the table when they run the class, and racers want to have that opportunity to fight for a win.

While I can understand the idea of a sportsman class, and have mixed feelings that top drivers should be in modified, it is also a completely different skill set to drive modified vs stock. How the car is setup, and more importantly how the car is driven.

I generally prefer stock style driving, with more focus on momentum and keeping speed up through corners to make time. However, stock is also where more setup technique and focus on marginal gains from multiple angles combined can make a huge difference. When everything is held constant under a tight rule structure, is where marginal gains make even more of a difference. When you have unrestricted power, these marginal gains are not really needed as much, since you already have more power than you need, and it's more about how you can convert that power through the wheel into the track than trying to find more power and speed which is the primary focus of stock level racing.

In general when I would race bigger events, more preparation and refinement would go into my stock setups than modified, mostly because modified was much more driver focused as where stock would be more equipment focused because the track could take more speed than what the stock level power could give. In a sense, what Ray said above is very true, that the track is the primary constraint and can be the limit if designed properly...

In general in this scale, new racers want to go fast. Veterans often want to go slow (mostly because slower classes provide better racing). I have always enjoyed pro stock level racing the most. (48t/5500kv AAA or 2S 3500kv power level), mostly because it removes much of the need to search for power gains, as the power is often just above what the track can take, but not necessarily out of hand as modified is for most average racers.

I know that I am going on a few tangents here, which stray from the focus of this event thread, which I apologize for doing. I think in general, near box stock/ kyosho stock is one of the best classes for racing when done right. But, when the balance of power creeps to raise the bar where the scope of the class changes (existing practitioners cannot participate), something needs to be done about it.
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I agree with EMU. I would just add, keep the just stock class with no pro drivers. Have some way to vet when a new driver can jump from just stock to pro stock. Exp. X number of laps or winning their A main 3 weeks in a row. (Hard to do with the dwindling numbers in 1/28 scale) I still can't believe this scale is still using AAA's and brushed motors. LOL In my years of racing, the stock class or restrictions on a specific class (motor, gearing, batteries, etc) has never been about saving money or making the racing more competitive. These rules/restrictions just give certain drivers a false belief that they have a better chance of winning if the playing field was more level or slower. The truth is, better drivers/tuners will still find a way to the top of their A-mains.


Good Luck to ALL, This seems like a great event.
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I agree to respectfully disagree I don’t think we will ever get to a sanctioned rules set in this scale. Please do not exclude top drivers from stock. I’d rather the come close and loose to a top driver myself, pushes me to be better but as noted, everyone is different and seeks/gets something different out of it. I’d rather chase the top than lead the bottom. It’s a matter of perspective and perspective is subjective to the viewer.
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Old 2019.06.24, 03:47 PM   #12
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There’s a bottom line scenario in effect which is given the low number of attendees (let alone super low # of new drivers to this scale) in most 28th scale venues unless all drivers including expert/pros support the box stock class there will be no such class to even discuss in the first place because it will never take hold if no ones running it. Dividing fast and slower drivers into A,B sorts ( & son on) will go a long way to making the experience enjoyable for the slower drivers as they’ll be competing against closer competition.( an ideal minimum of 5-6 drivers required to get 2 sorts going). Also remembering box stocks go down to 90mm which are roughly one+ second slower than a 98mm car, maybe better drivers can run 94-90mm cars to create a little bit of extra challenge for themselves.
Box stock stock is the only gateway class in this scale as far as price points and the mildest overall learning curve required which logically should entice a higher number of people to actually try the scale…a venue who doesn’t run a box stock class can only offer the full fledged optioned cars + radio to anyone new who wants to buy & race what others in the venue are running.

Last edited by mugler; 2019.06.24 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 2019.06.24, 08:42 PM   #13
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copied other stock class posts from other thread to here.
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Old 2019.06.25, 01:52 AM   #14
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I do not disagree with you, I typically enter every class offered at race events and club racing. The kyosho stock class is often one of three more fun and competitive classes that I race. Primarily because it really is surprising how good such a simple car can drive.

I often slightly handicap myself, using bodies or wheelbases which go against the norm. I primarily do this to show that you don't need to use the "best" body or wheelbase to have a car that can perform well. I like seeing different cars on track, especially because this scale offers so much variety with body choices. In a box stock class, the body had so much more influence with how the car handles than in a less restrictive class, but because speeds are a bit slower, some of the less competitive race bodies can also work well. One of the racers years ago used to be quite competitive with the PT Cruiser, and it was so funny to see on track next to ferrari's and porsche's in our narrow 70t class.
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Old 2019.06.25, 04:33 PM   #15
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Me too regarding running shorter WBs' ... depending on the competition at hand I adjust my own BOP best i can staring with choice of wheel base.

For kicks and in the spirit of this thread in next few days I'll post the version of box stock we have arrived to over the years in the pits talking to those who've been interested in this class ...The rules part is going to be pretty predictable but I'll throw in some general tips and tuning info which can be helpful to newer drivers.
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Epoch, Indoor Racer, 1/43, 43rd scale
E-Savage, eSavage, eZilla, e-Zilla, HPI
Robots, Bots, Bipeds, Wheeled, Manoi, Roomba, NXT, Lego, Hacking
Crawling, Crawlers, Micro, RC, Losi Mini-Rock Crawler, Duratrax Cliff Climber
Kyosho Minium, Caliber 120, Minium Forums
Mini-Z Hop-Ups, Mini-Z Parts, Mini Inferno Hop-Ups, Mini Inferno Parts, M18 Hop-Ups, M18 Parts