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Old 2010.03.11, 10:22 PM   #1
pedrocamp
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High Speed Hobbies Thursday Night Race Schedule

NEW START TIME IS 6:30 PM. 3/23/10
New schedule:


Below is the original text of the discussion:
After a rather vigorous discussion this evening about our evening race schedule I thought it would be appropriate to invite all to share their thoughts and suggestions on this forum - let's make our weekly racing run smoothly and fairly for all. Most importantly we need to be mindful and appreciative of the courtesy that Jim and Vicki show in hosting us at High Speed Hobbies, we can best show this by concluding our racing within the time they specify.

I would like to post an outline, within the next couple of days, of a typical nights schedule and get comments and suggestions on this proposal in hopes of presenting Andy, our Race Director supplied by HSH, a printed schedule to follow by Thursday, March 18th. This of course will be a first draft with adjustments made as necessary. Once we come up with an acceptable schedule, I will edit this first post with that schedule. I will print the shedule to post in the hobby shop and also attempt to have it posted on the High Speed Hobbies website, along with our current rules.

Thanks for your participation,

Pedro
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Last edited by pedrocamp; 2010.03.23 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 2010.03.12, 08:33 AM   #2
cosmicsoul
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It seems to me like there is bunch of confusion. When is it that Jim and Vicki want us out of there? That is the question? Not trying to ruffle any feathers, sound unappreciative or disrespectfull to them or anybody.

We need to know when they Jim and Vicki would like for the evening to end. Last night I heard Jim say that he would like to be out of there by 10 oclock. I don't think that I am making this stuff up.

It seems to me that since I have been racing at High Speed since the end 07 we have never really ended at 9:00pm. I have never really heard Jim or Vicky say that we need to be done by 9:00pm, it has been implied by others that 9:00pm but not them or the race staff.

If 9:00pm is the cut off then there is a simple solution. Start earlier and finish by 9:00pm possibly earlier. I would suggest 6:00pm. If Jim wants to get out of there by 10 oclock I am not sure what all the commotion is about.

On another note I am not so into cutting out qualifiers or cutting back mains to save time. We all have a lot of time and money invested in this sport. I personally spend several hundred dollars a month at the Hobby shop wether I need stuff or not just to show my support and drive 2 hours round trip week in and week out rain or shine. This is one of times of my week that I look forward to most and enjoy. I do not want to be rushed and made to feel like I am or we are a burden to the shop. I do not think the shop owners think that we are. I think they very much enjoy having us and apprieciate our business. So why not just leave well enough alone. It seems like everytime we get in a rush to get out of there by 9 oclock all hell breaks loose and someone gets mad and offended.

All that being said, Thursday night racing is growing. If we do indeed need to get out of there by 9 lets get started at 6 or 6:30pm. Coupled with maybe purchasing a large clock and posting a set schedule that is strictly adhered to things should run a little smoother. I mean they have until yesterday. Cutting into peoples racing time is not going to do anything but make people upset. If I can't race two qualifiers and an 8 minute main in each class I am running I will stay home and start my own club in Greensboro, then maybe I can start winning some races.

I figured out that if we ran 10 four minute qualifiers, 5 eight minute mains with 5 minute pit breaks between each it would take 2 hours and 38 minutes. That breaks down into a C stock, B stock, A stock, (A) F-1/Lemans and (B) F-1/Lemans.

It is really simple guys this is not rocket science or brain surgery. None of us is going to get rich doing this. It seems to me we have 2 choices:

1. Start earlier
2. End later than 9:00pm

Pick one!
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Old 2010.03.12, 09:12 AM   #3
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Based on 3 Stock Classes and 2 (either LM or F1) classes
6:45 Start
6:45 Stock C: 4 minute heat (followed by 3 minute break)
6:52 Stock B: 4 minute heat (followed by 3 minute break)
6:59 Stock A: 4 minute heat (followed by 5 minute break)
7:08 LM or F1 B: 4 minute heat (followed by 3 minute break)
7:15 LM or F1 A: 4 minute heat (followed by 5 minute break)
7:24 Stock C: 4 minute heat (followed by 3 minute break)
7:31 Stock B: 4 minute heat (followed by 3 minute break)
7:38 Stock A: 4 minute heat (followed by 5 minute break)
7:48 LM or F1 B: 4 minute heat (followed by 3 minute break)
7:55 LM or F1 A: 4 minute heat (followed by 5 minute break)
8:04 Stock C: 8 minute main (followed by 3 minute break)
8:15 Stock B: 8 minute main (followed by 3 minute break)
8:26 Stock A: 8 minute main (followed by 5 minute break)
8:39 LM or F1 B: 8 minute main (followed by 3 minute break)
8:50 LM or F1 A: 8 minute main
8:58 DONE

In an ideal world we would be able to stick to this schedule, but I donít think 2 minutes allows enough time for error and other circumstances. The options would be either to:
Have only 1 heat for each A and B for LM and F1.
Reduce Heats from 4 minutes to 3 minutes.
Rigidly stick to the schedule.

I think it is unlikely that we have a full turnout every night, but in the event of that, it is important inspire the younger guys to stay involved and competitive with this. I know when I first started I would always compare my 8 minute main times to the guys in the A class and every week I saw my 30-35-40 laps get that much closer to their 60 laps (64 for those Wade fans out there). Especially with all the new guys we saw last night, they will want to see their times and lap count get better, they will buy upgrades, and this is good business for HSH. In theory this schedule would a lot us plenty of time in between races and if enforced would ensure everyone gets out of HSH by 9.
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Old 2010.03.12, 09:42 AM   #4
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It does look simple on paper. But if you run the race in 2hrs and 38min, that translates to 9:40pm with a 7pm start. We all know that things will never run perfectly, which is OK.......but that puts us getting out around 10pm. Maybe Jim was misunderstood last night, but I heard him very clearly state that if the racing goes to 10pm he's gonna step in and change things. So, they don't want us there until 10 every Thursday in my mind. Vicki ran the races every night for years, and she always told us that the goal was 9pm. When we ran past 9pm she was mildly upset and changed our format on occasion to try and adhere to the 9pm schedule. However, Andy is running the races now and maybe we can stay later, I truly don't know .

With all that being said, I don't care if we stay later, begin earlier, change heats or shorten mains. I think that is ultimately up to the HSH staff, not us. Whatever the format and punishment for not adhering to it is, I will comply as always. I had nothing to do with shortening the mains and don't really care if they are 20min long or 2min long, I'll race regardless. The only time you'll see me get really upset is when 1 racer makes a decision or changes for all of us, or someone is cheating. I want HSH to make the rules, not us. If they wish to take our thoughts into consideration when doing so, it should be everyones not just one person who has their ear. Keep in mind that regardless of where you race (such as MBMZR), the lower mains are routinely shortened due to time restraints. BUT THAT STILL WASN'T MY IDEA !!!!

Here's the real problem, everyone can't be happy all of the time. That's just a fact of life. We already have a large group and it is continuously growing. The racing gets closer every week, and I truly think that it is anyone's for the winning or losing. People are gonna be shuffled around from time to time depending on where they qualify. Crap, we've all had good and bad nights! Keep in mind that we are all separated by fractions of a second. One mishap could easily change our status by 5 or 6 positions. I've been running at HSH since June 2007 and during that time I've ran every class there is. I've also lost and won every class we have run at one time or the other. Some nights were great and some horrible, but we all have to keep our cool.

We have a great club with some great guys and I don't want to lose anyone. We're kind of like a big family. And, families have disagreements from time to time. It's all in how you handle the disagreements though. Keep in mind that it's not our shop, our racetrack, or even our race. Things need to be settled in a manner that doesn't shed a negative light on our club or HSH. That will ultimately be our demise in the end . I can honestly say that I don't think anyone running the A-Main had anything to do with the other shortened mains. I also don't think that any one group is catered to. But, we should all strive together to make the night as enjoyable as possible for everyone involved. I know we all are competitive........and that's alright as long as our attitude stays in check. Keep in mind, though, that we win nothing at the end of the night except for bragging rights. There are no trophies, money, or points. This is simply our time to get away, hang out with good friends, and play with little cars like kids. And I love doing all of the above with each and every one of you. So, let's make this work. I will follow whatever schedule EVERYONE wants to run regardless. Let's just make sure that Jim and Vicki like it and have the final say.

Good friends, fast racing, and stiff competition...............that's what HSH is all about .
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Last edited by pick; 2010.03.12 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 2010.03.12, 11:33 AM   #5
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Thanks for the quick responses. Thanks especially to stuck for posting that timeline, very close to what i would have typed up other than I would have allowed 10 minutes for the sort before the mains. This also allows time for anyone that has a little testing to do on a repaired car before their main. As all three of you have stated we don't have enough time, with a full field, when starting at 7 and ending by 9. Since, as I have always understood, we need to be finishing by 9 we need to move the start time earlier to accomodate all racers. We never know how many are showing up so we need to always plan for a full field. Starting earlier is the only option since we don't want to upset management, we also need to try to get the youngsters, and Lara, out by 9. Some of us also have work the next day and have long drives home.

I see 6:45 as a good start with 6:30 as a further possibility. The race director, Andy in this case, needs to keep the event moving. The heats and races run with or without any individual. If you are not on track for transponder check-in that is your tough luck. If your, or my, diff balls fell out, that's unfortunate, the show goes on. I my years in professional motor racing I have never seen an event held up for Roger Penske, Rick Hendrick, Schumacher, Earnhardt or even Danica. The race starts, unless there's potholes!

It is not Andy's responsibility to find turn marshalls or wait on turn marshalls. The heats start with or without them. The racers pay the price for no marshalls, it shouldn't make any difference to Andy. The clock runs with or without them. If you will be driving a car, you need to be marshalling cars. No exceptions. If you have to work on your car, smoke a PallMall, text your girlfriend or check out the latest in flight simulators you need to find a stunt marshall. Andy should check for offenders though and the racers themselves should point them out to Andy as they ultimately pay the price for an upside down car. If you don't marshall, or don't find a replacement, you don't run your next heat or main. If you race - you marshall the next race. It is also the responsibility of the racers of the last main to organize sufficient marshalls for the last race of the evening, not Andy. Sons, friends, fellow racers, etc...

Out of time... more later.
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Old 2010.03.12, 12:37 PM   #6
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My Rant

After the Stock C main was run, I was surprised to hear that only 4 minutes were alloted. I fully understand the protester's concern about this. This is ridiculous and a sure way to keep new racers from coming back. We are all there to have a good time and play with our toy cars. To let the faster guys have more run time is unfair. Our Thursday night club racing is not a ROAR sanctioned event or a PN Racing event. It is a group of guys racing model cars. I am all for starting earlier, say 6 or 6:30, and having 3 hrs to get the racing in. As has been stated, there is no reason why we cannot race all three classes - Stock / LM / F1 in the same evening if we have 3 hours. We could finish in 2.5 hrs if we reduce the qualifying to 3 minute heats. I was particularly bummed that because of the ensuing revelry at the end of the Stock A main, the chief reveler balked at his own words when the Race Director called the F1 racers to the line in the time frame that had been decided upon during the heated discussion at the end of the C Main. We had 4 minutes. I was listening to the count down. I was ready to race, I started the race, and then was told, No the start did not count, the chief reveler was not ready and then began giving all of us his reasoning. Because the reasoning from the chief reveler continued for a couple more minutes, I had to withdraw my entry, as my personal responsibilities on this particular evening dictated that I be done by 9 (I usually do not have a problem staying later, but this time the wife was away and I had to take care of our diabetic, insulin dependant dog). Had we stuck to the plan as discussed, and attempted to be carried out by the Race Director, I could have raced that last main. Oh Well
I am all far 3 minute qualifying heats. I have deduced that if we start @ 6:30 we can run 2 rounds of 3 minute qualifiers with 3 minute breaks, break for 10 minutes before the main round and run 8 minute mains with 3 minute breaks, we can run all three classes (Stock, LM and F1) and be done by 9:15, if the schedule is adhered to rigorously. Sorry for the long rant, I feel better now
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Last edited by Breeze; 2010.03.12 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 2010.03.12, 01:30 PM   #7
cosmicsoul
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So what time are we going to start? 6 oclock might be early for some but surely we can get it all done by 9 that way.

Let me know as soon as we can come to some kind of understanding, as I have not been able to sleep since the onset of all this drama and turmoil.
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Old 2010.03.12, 01:37 PM   #8
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^ No after lunch nap today?
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Old 2010.03.12, 02:13 PM   #9
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Here is my 2 cents for what it's worth...

If we need to be finished around 9:00 pm, we have 2 choices - (a) start earlier or (b) spend less time racing. Now bear with me

Under option (a) I'm pretty sure Andy yesterday indicated 6:00 PM would be too early for him to get to the shop. He seemed OK with 6:30 PM, but we'd be wise to confirm this with him and management first.

Under option (b) we have 2 more choices, both of which were mentioned last night. (1) Reduce the allotted time for heats/races. Not a great option for anyone (2) Reduce the amount of time we spend NOT racing. Here we may have some room for improvement, but I'm not sure its enough.

For example, based on data from the AMB timing system, on the night of 1/21/10 we ran from 7:08 to 9:50, for a total of 2 hours and 42 minutes. We ran 2 heats each for Stock C, B and A and LM B and A (4 min each), followed by Stock C, B and A mains (4, 6 and 8 mins) and only one LM main for 8 mins. Of the total time of 2:42, we only spent 1:06 actually racing heats and mains. The remaining 1:36 minutes was used for "inbetweentime".

On this particular night, which I am assuming is a typical night, if we wanted to be done by 9:00, we would have had to cut the "inbetweentime" by around 50 minutes, or by a little more than half. The question I have is can we realistically do this?

Seems to me the least painful way to accomplish the goal of being done by 9:00 pm or so is to start earlier.
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Old 2010.03.12, 04:42 PM   #10
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i just wanna say hi. everybody just smile.

i know smart azz bald guy. not you marawan,me
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Old 2010.03.12, 06:41 PM   #11
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I was just sitting around praying to
the Miniz gods about are situation when they revealed to me they are very angry we are not spending more time racing. They are commanding us to start earlier and stay later!
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Old 2010.03.12, 08:51 PM   #12
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If I pissed someone off, I will say SORRY only once. Very few handled them selves like adults last night. Smart a$$ comments and pulling cars off the track are not a fix for any problem. I didn't have a problem with the F1 race starting and didn't make any comments until the race director stopped the race. The majority of F1 racers just finished racing the stock A main. Why would it be OK to give the bump up a little time and not someone with classes back to back? Another question. We have been running 4 minute c main's and 6 minute b mains for 6 or 8 weeks now. Why has it been OK for the kids to run 4 minutes and now all of a sudden it's a problem?
*
I'm offended by the comment you A main guys. That's garbage. There have been many a night I worked late and got to the Hobby shop just before the mains started and have to work my way up. There is no A main group, B main group, better racer, crappy racer, or whatever. I thought we were all friends, I thought we all helped each other, I want to compete against everyone, not just the "good guys". Whats the reason for bashing someone here. It's just wrong. I've always said the guys I race with at HSH is*the best and most competitive bunch of guys I have ever raced with in my 30+ years of RC racing. I still stand by that statement. I know we'll put all of this aside and get this figured out.
*
I've been racing here at HSH since the racing started here. Lara probably has just about as much tenure. The race schedule has always*started at*7:00. We want to be done at 9:00. If not, at least out the doors and gone by 10:00. I know Jim said last night the races must be done by 10:00 or he will stop it all together. I'm all for starting at 6:30. Whatever everyone wants is OK with me.
*
I do like alternating weekly F1 and LM. My opinion three classes a night is to much.
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Old 2010.03.12, 09:41 PM   #13
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I am at least happy to say we have a very competitive group of guys! We are lucky to have such a good group of very fast racers, between us and MBZR we are MniZ racing in the Southeast. Our group can show well at any track we travel too.

I know all clubs and groups go through these scheduling problems, just do a search here on MZR for 1/28 scale or RCTECH for the larger stuff. The Ann Arbor group is going through the same issues but they have to set up and tear down their track every race night; thanks to Jim and Vicki we don't have to do that!

While tempers might have gotten heated I think we are already close to a consensus:
  • It is important to be finishing up as close to 9 as possible to allow Jim to close up by 10.
  • All heats and mains should be equal time for all levels of skill.
  • Two heats and a main for both classes run on a given evening.
  • More time is needed between heats but this time needs to be very tightly controlled.
  • Only two classes should be run a night.
  • Our group has been growing lately and we need to schedule for this.
  • An earlier start time of 6:30PM would suit most.
  • The MiniZ gods are angry!

I am working on some different scheduling scenarios and will post when I play with Excel some more...
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Old 2010.03.12, 10:23 PM   #14
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This scenario has a 6:30 start time, 4 minute grid times with 2 heats of 4 minutes and 8 minute mains. It also includes a 10 minute break before the mains for sorts and final testing.

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Old 2010.03.12, 10:25 PM   #15
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This is the same scenario with shorter grid times:

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