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Old 2009.05.10, 11:46 AM   #1
eztuner12
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PN Racing MA-010 AWD Front Double -A- Arm Suspension.

Greetings Gentlemen.

Now that PN Racing, makers of fine Mini-z performance parts, as the latest proved and successful Front double-A-arm suspension for the MR-02. Officially confirmed, that a new front double-A-arm suspension for us Mini-z MA-010 4WD fans, is on the final stages at the design table, final production quality & strength test and soon the actual performance testing stages will set in motion. I decided to open this new thread. First, so that PN Racing has a place to post its up-dates & progress, regarding the fresh suspension system. Secondly, for us to post our expectatives & comments as well.

Thank You!
Cheers
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Old 2009.05.10, 11:57 AM   #2
eztuner12
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Hi

Fist, I would like to thank Philip Ng, for listening to our voice and putting the necessary effort in rank to create a front double-A-arm for the Mini-z MA-010 AWD.

I do believe that this new performance suspension part will be as effective and successful as its antecessor MA-02 front double-A-arm. Perhaps with more notable increase of performance on the 4WD than the 2WD.

As I have read most, if not all, the persons that have acquire the new front double-A-arm suspension for the 2WD chassis, are very happy with its outcome, so satisfied I will say, that they have not gone back to the old system.
Only one downbeat comment has arisen from some guys, regarding the MA-02 front double-A-arm, that’s the front end sliding effect on turns, which was effectively correct by the WTF created by Reflex Racing. This front end sliding is normal on mini-zs, as on any vehicle on which the same toe dedgree is maintaine between left & right front wheels at turning angle.

I believe that creating a wider Double-A-arm in line to avoid this front-end sliding scenario could be some how risky, since it could weaken the parts involve in the system. I guess a simple solution can be accomplish, through the design of front knuckles with angled steering arms towards the chassis. These angled steering arms will indeed create the diverse necessary toe angle between left & right front wheels when turning, in rank to void the sliding state of affairs.

Perchance, I am anticipating/speculating what we don’t know, so let us wait until the new PN Racing front double-A-arm for the 4WD is release.

Thx
Cheers
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Old 2009.05.16, 05:53 AM   #3
AFMiniz
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Will it be made of Alloy like other PN products?
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Old 2009.05.17, 08:26 PM   #4
eztuner12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFMiniz View Post
Will it be made of Alloy like other PN products?
Yep. same as the 2wd version
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Old 2009.05.28, 03:52 PM   #5
eztuner12
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From Solid beam axle suspension to Unequal length double A-arm

Evolution of the car suspension:


Solid beam axle.
Swing axle.
Trailing link suspension.
MacPherson.
Equal length A-arm.
Unequal length double A-arm.

This piece of writing will provide a basic overview of all of the different types of front suspensions that have been used on production and racing vehicles since the inception of the automobile.
While some of the older systems are obsolete it is important to learn about them, because it provides valuable insight into why the cutting edge suspensions of today vehicles perform much better.

Going in chronological order, the first mass produced front suspension design was the solid beam axle. Just as it sounds, in the beam axle set-up both of the front wheels are connected to each other by a solid axle. This approach was carried over to the first automobiles from the horse drawn carriages of the precedent and worked well enough so that initially no other suspension even needed to be considered. In fact the beam axle can still be found today. New developments in springs, roll bars, and shocks have kept the solid axle practical for some applications, as on semi or heavy duty truck .
After designers & engineers had come to realize the severe drawbacks of the solid axle front suspension, they moved on to early attempts at an independent method of front suspension. One of these attempts came to be known as a swing axle suspension. It is, as the name suggests, set-up so that the axles pivot about a location somewhere near the center of the car and allow the wheels to travel up and down through their respective arcs. This system was eventually adapted for rear suspensions as can be found on the old VWbeetles.

Another early structure of front independent suspension is called the trailing link suspension. This suspension blueprint uses a set of arms located ahead of the wheels to support the unsprung mass. In essence the wheel “trails” the suspension links. therefore the name. Since independent front suspensions were pioneered in production cars to improve the ride characteristics of vehicles, as well as, minimize the space needed for the suspension itself. Early designs as the trailing link suspension attempted to excel in those areas of improvement. Trailing link systems like the one in the front of the old VW beetle were a success from the manufacturer standpoint as they did improve ride and reduce the packaging size of the suspension, nonetheless, there were some substantial negative aspect to the trailing link system when applied to vehicles that generate high cornering loads, as bending, lost of camber & weight

In the 1970’s the MacPherson front suspension assembly became a very popular mean on front wheel drive cars as the Honda Civic. This strut based system, where the spring/shock directly connects the steering knuckle to the chassis and acts as a link in the suspension, offers a simple and compact suspension package. This is perfect for small front wheel drive cars where space is tight and even allows room for the drive shaft to pass through the knuckle. Today most small cars will use this type of suspension because it is cheap, has good ride qualities, and has the compact dimensions necessary for front wheel drive cars. As with the trailing link style independent suspension, while the MacPherson system works very well for production road going cars, on performance cars it is less than superlative.

Compensations of the McPherson suspension are:
Standard independent advantages. This suspension offered all of the improvements regarding ride quality & road holding that an independent front suspension can.
Size. This is an extremely compact design, perfect for small cars.
Suited for front wheel drive cars. Doe to that the system used the strut as the upper suspension link; nothing is located directly behind the steering front hub, providing the necessary clearance for the driveshaft on front wheels cars.

Drawbacks are:
Scrub Radius issues. With this particular suspension, it is very difficult to increase tyre width. The only way to do so is by increasing the tires scrub radius, as it moves thru the range of the suspension travel. This will indeed increase the side loading on the suspension and will bend components.
Lack of Camber gain. The result is that as the chassis rolls on the suspension the tyre will roll into positive camber reducing the cornering power of the tires.

As the suspension evolution continues, the next pace was to move towards the equal length A-arm design. This is commonly referred to as a “double wishbone” suspension as the A shaped control arms resemble a wishbone. In this system, the suspension is supported by a triangulated A-arm at the top and bottom of the knuckle. The earliest designs of the A-arm suspension included equal length upper and lower arms mounted parallel to the ground. This design has many advantages over any of the previous independent front suspensions.

Compensations of the equal length A-arm suspension are:
It offered even better ride quality, as well as, road holding than other systems. Many quality car manufactures use this suspension.
The equal double-A- arms suspension uses solid, rigid control arms to mount the knuckles to the chassis. These arms prevent deflection during cornering ensuring the steering wheel alignment to remain constant.

Drawbacks are:
Lack of Camber gain. Even through this design provides an enormous improvement in ride & cornering stability. With equal light upper & lower arms, there is no negative camber increase. The result is that as the car rolls the wheel gains positive camber creating lost of traction.

After designing, implementing, and experimenting with the equal length double A-arm suspension it was vary apparent that all that was needed to make the double A-arm front suspension satisfactory for high performance use was to determine a way for the suspension to gain negative camber as it was compressed. (I.e. during chassis roll) The problem was solved by putting into practice an upper & lower A-arm of different length. The unequal length double A-arm suspension was born.
By using an upper control arm that is shorter than the lower arm, as the wheel travels up it tips in, gaining negative camber. This is because the upper arm swings through a shorter arc than the lower arm and pulls in the top of the tire as the wheel travels upwards. The advantage in this negative camber increase is that as the chassis rolls against the wheels, the escalating negative camber on the outside wheel helps keep the wheel upright against the road surface and allows the tire to generate the maximum possible cornering force.

By adjusting the length of the arms and their respective angles to the ground, there are infinite possibilities in the design of a vehicles roll center height and swing arm length. This flexibility gives suspension designers unlimited options on how to best setup the suspension. There is no right answer or best geometry, that is why a Honda will have different geometry than a Corvette. It ultimately comes down to what design will get the vehicle around a corner the fastest. However, in production cars the manufacturers have many other things to consider. Depending on the target market and type of car, there are a host of variables that must be considered and result in a less than optimum suspension design for most vehicles. Lastly, when comparing the unequal length double A-arm setup to all the previous iterations of the independent front suspension from a performance standpoint, it has real no disadvantages and is currently “the most advanced suspension design used”. Simply look at what suspension the most advanced race cars use if you have any doubts. The only cars that do not feature this design are vehicles where price and space are of more concern than performance.

In summary, we have seen how the evolution of the front suspension has progressed over the past 100 years from the solid beam axle taken from horse buggies through to the unequal length double A-arm design currently employed by the top performance cars of today. While most people have heard that, a double A-arm set-up is good they do not know why it is better than a different style of suspension.

This commentary is intended to introduce the most common types of front suspensions and cover their strengths and weaknesses. After reading through the information presented here you should have a decent understanding of each of the suspension designs discussed and how they affect ride quality and handling performance.

Hope you have enjoy this information, as we will enjoy on our mini-z 4wd the all new unequal length double A-arm design, soon to be released by PN Racing .

Thxxx…
Cheers
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Old 2009.05.28, 08:49 PM   #6
yamar6
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They should of made it like the xmod evo.only made the aarms move

Last edited by yamar6; 2009.05.30 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 2009.05.31, 07:55 PM   #7
ckwu
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Just a little added info
double wish-bone is not equal length a-arm, it is unequal length a-arm
the equal length a-arm didn't really go to production and it evolved to unequal length a-arm, which automotive term would be SLA (short long arm suspension) the reason being is if the control arms were both the same length, the tire would slide from side to side as it went over bumps.
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Old 2009.05.31, 10:42 PM   #8
benmlee
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eztuner12 - Good description on suspension. I was looking at a-arm suspension on different cars at one of the auto shows. Interesting to note that every manufacture has a vastly different a-arm arrangement. They do have to take into consideration many more things than rc cars. All their latest suspension technology are probaby kept secret.
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Old 2009.06.01, 12:45 PM   #9
eztuner12
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Thumbs up

Hi ckwu
Thxxx… for the additional info.
Your right, perhaps only a few sport off road vehicles, buggies used it, largely at the rear-end.

Hi Ben
Yep, some keep their suspension info on low profile, especially with today’s electronic suspensions.

Thx for your comment. There is a good assortment of valuable info on the internet, in relation to this theme.

Again Thx!
Cheers
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Old 2009.06.01, 08:19 PM   #10
eztuner12
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Question

Hi Ben,

Would the New PN front & rear Unequal double-A-arm, will come with adjustable suspension spring load, so that we can settle the driving camber degrees, as well as the ride-height r???

Alternatively, due we will have to deal with shims/spring spacers, in order to adjust the driving camber???

Advanced thanks!
Cheers

Last edited by eztuner12; 2010.06.20 at 01:26 AM.
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Old 2009.06.08, 11:04 AM   #11
AFMiniz
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When will be the expected release date? Any plan to develop the rear one?
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Old 2009.06.08, 01:58 PM   #12
eztuner12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFMiniz View Post
When will be the expected release date? Any plan to develop the rear one?
Hi AFMiniz.

I think PN is releasing both, front & rear ends for the MA-010 4WD cars.

Perhaps Ben the designer or Philip from PN Racing can confirm this, plus an estimated release date.

Cheers
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Old 2009.06.09, 05:21 AM   #13
remy
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AWD 2.4 troubles

Hello,
I've got a MA010 2.4 with an Atomic stock R evolution and a 3PK. I race on a carpet track.
After about 1/2 an hour of racing I lost the control of my car and I've to do again the programmation with the 3 PK and it works again. But it happens very often.

Do someone know this problem ?

Best regards
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Old 2009.06.09, 07:36 AM   #14
eztuner12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by remy View Post
Hello,
I've got a MA010 2.4 with an Atomic stock R evolution and a 3PK. I race on a carpet track.
After about 1/2 an hour of racing I lost the control of my car and I've to do again the programmation with the 3 PK and it works again. But it happens very often.

Do someone know this problem ?

Best regards
Hi remy
I will suggest you go to this 2.4g ASF THREAD for an answer to your question
Help for sure will rise.
click on this link;
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=117

Hope it aids!!!
Cheers
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Old 2009.07.05, 07:24 PM   #15
dub599
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double front a arms for the ma-01 that would be sick. does anyone know if these are out yet?
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