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Old 2004.12.21, 05:09 PM   #31
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Stock racing has the same problems in every form of racing, there will always be someone with cheater motors, batteries, willing to bend stock parts to generate camber, and some mystry goo to make 60 tires into 5's. There's no point in having any other limit besides a stock motor (which will be pointless too)

The real racers have always run modified, with limits on the number of cells and car dimensions allowing other manufacturers to enter the market. Remember back in the 90's when associated was absolutely dominating the offroad world and Losi released the jrx-2?
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Old 2004.12.21, 05:11 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arch2b
not sure if that was a veiled insult or not but i understand what your saying
No arch...it was only an insult to my driving ability.

This is a good discussion. I like to hear what everyone has to say. I admit I'm still very much a noob to RC but the bottom line is no mater what the rules end up being I plan on entering. And having FUN.

And that's tru about someone performing medical marvels on their cars and using the rules to extend teh rules istead of reading them for their purpose. The more rules you have the more intrepretations there are.

It seems that motors, fets and batteries are the hop ups that give the most speed so it is most important to place rules on those.

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Old 2004.12.21, 05:17 PM   #33
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brian,

On good thing in my opinion about the US Mini-Z-Cup was that Alex did most of the tech inspections. Hopefully, there was only one standard overall just to catch those "cheaters". The cup rules also didn't permit the use of tire enhancing compounds as well as body lightening techniques and so on.
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Old 2004.12.21, 05:20 PM   #34
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I'm not saying that I wont add input, but as it stands right now things are getting a little ... well, muddled.


TNB: I love the "stock" races, because there are a lot of great racers who just cannot afford to sink the money into the hobby. I can't imagine some of these people with modded out rides, they would be amazing. I like to give the race to someone who ears it driving wise, not money-into-car wise. You know?
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Old 2004.12.21, 05:20 PM   #35
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I think Kyosho had the right idea starting the Kyosho Cup...but, they kind of killed it by only allowing Kyosho hopups, Kyosho batteries, etc...

Their first and main goal should have been to sell a Kyosho Mini-Z to every household in America, and make the Mini-Z a "huge" RC class! But, by limiting it to only Kyosho products, it took many people out of the Cup. Now I understand that they were trying to make $ and support their selves, but many people upgrade their cars and buy whatever they can afford or what appeals to them... that is why there are so many companies making parts for the Mini-Z's (Powerline, Megatech, GPM, 3Racing, Topcad, etc...).

The point I am trying to get too, is that our main purpose should be to make the Mini-Z's a household name, no matter what upgrades we have, no matter what brand or softness of tires we run, etc... Just have fun, race our cars, be competitive, and grow the sport!
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Old 2004.12.21, 05:25 PM   #36
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Twenty-Se7ev,

I hear what you are saying, and I completly understand! I can't afford an M8 radio to run my car, but on the other hand, buying some alloy parts (motor mount $15 and screws $10) shouldn't necesarily bump me up into a class with these guys with FET upgrades and $50 motors... that is what we are trying to work out and get everyone's opinion.
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Old 2004.12.21, 05:28 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twenty-Se7en
I'm not saying that I wont add input, but as it stands right now things are getting a little ... well, muddled.


TNB: I love the "stock" races, because there are a lot of great racers who just cannot afford to sink the money into the hobby. I can't imagine some of these people with modded out rides, they would be amazing. I like to give the race to someone who ears it driving wise, not money-into-car wise. You know?
Unfortunately, any sport where its man and machine there is a certain amoun of unaviodable cost for performance. Even siplle events like bike racing where there is no motor.

It seems that three classes might be the best idea. Bone stock, hop ups with no board modification, and pro anything goes class. Just an idea...

I hear what you are saying 27 but I also agree with Elmo that if I replaced a broken knuckle with an alloy one does it make that much of a difference?

If it is goign to be bone stock, in my mind, the most level playing field is to rotate cars...that way if you cheat someone else might have your cheat.

Frankly, if I used my M8 I wouldnt finish a lap....still cant get it to work on the Zs

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Old 2004.12.21, 05:33 PM   #38
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Twenty-Se7en,
I know what you mean about "giv[ing] the race to someone who ears it driving wise, not money-into-car wise." Myself, I get a kick out of watching how well Bill can drive as well as a few others no matter if it is the stock class or open class. Overall, I just like hanging out, meeting some of the other racers, and learning a few tips--it's like a "crash" course in Z-101. I also understand and realize that others may simply try to purchase almost every tire on the market just to keep others from getting them just so they can try to have an edge--it may sound crazy but that's just one of the rumors I've heard floating around. Strict rules just limit such activity or at least help limit the BS that occurs once the "fun" turns into a "race".
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Old 2004.12.21, 05:38 PM   #39
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ruknd,

In my opinion, it does make a lot of difference to replace a plastic "F1" knuckle with an alloy one simple because it is an open wheel car. Even if an alloy knuckle is allowed, do you limit the degree too since it may or may not be available in stock which would also make a difference.
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Old 2004.12.21, 05:48 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNB
ruknd,

In my opinion, it does make a lot of difference to replace a plastic "F1" knuckle with an alloy one simple because it is an open wheel car. Even if an alloy knuckle is allowed, do you limit the degree too since it may or may not be available in stock which would also make a difference.
Agreed on F1...but they break so easily...that after any time with the car you have broken them. And why not replace them with alloy? camber makes a difference for some and not for others.

If some tool wants to go and try and buy every tire on the market to try and corner it go ahead...what is that going to cost him?

Maybe I am naieve but my goal for a race is to meet some of you here on the forum and have fun. If I race well I'll be happy, if I crap out I'll still be happy. I'l try my hardest to race my best and that is it. Cornering the market on atomic parts is just goign to get everyone to hate you. No matter what there will be these people...these will be the same people that get matched zapped cells and wrap them in a different wrapper. There will always be cheaters.

We need to look at two things, what would get the most participation (I still think a poll might be good) and what will further the hobby/sport.

Frankly the people with the biggest advantage are those with enough space to set up an RCP and practice .

In the end whoever organizes the race decides. And if there are people who are so set on winning they will cheat...how about hand out motors, batteries, and tires?

Here is someting else I've noticed, some people prefer different tires so wouldnt running stock give people with that type of driving style an advantage?

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Old 2004.12.21, 05:55 PM   #41
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These are the reasons you shouldn't limit the cars, this isn't 8th scale we're talking about.. my super stock winning car from last week has maybe 50 dollars worth of upgrades on it, in fact if i wasn't running the open class, id have won that with my stock run as well
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Old 2004.12.21, 05:59 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruknd@aol.com
...Maybe I am naieve but my goal for a race is to meet some of you here on the forum and have fun. If I race well I'll be happy, if I crap out I'll still be happy. I'l try my hardest to race my best and that is it....Here is someting else I've noticed, some people prefer different tires so wouldnt running stock give people with that type of driving style an advantage?
well said. i couldn't agree more. i can almost garauntee you i won't win but i can garauntee you will leave having had fun either way.

hmmm... it hasn't paid off for me thus far while i have greatly improved, i still get passed by my much younger brother and cousin, not to mention byebye, his wife, and sometimes his son about the only ones a can pass without a doubt are my son and wife
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Old 2004.12.21, 07:35 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruknd@aol.com
Here is someting else I've noticed, some people prefer different tires so wouldnt running stock give people with that type of driving style an advantage?
In the past Mini-Z-Cup events, "stock" didn't apply to tires though the tires couldn't be foams and the F1s also had to have "ribbed" tires. It is also my understanding that at one regional the tire rule was modified because of the track. However, such a special change in the tire rule shouldn't apply if everyone is running on an RCP Track. The problem with "handout tires" is that some people prefer overstear, some understear, and some may even prefer neutral. Then again, the choice of a "range" of a particular tire could be an option. However, then the race fees would have to be increased and someone would have to front to costs of the tires. (PN Racing does this with its motors and at its races, PN Racing also regulates the boards. Kyosho and Xmod also regulated the boards in their tournaments. Why reinvent the wheel....).
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Old 2004.12.21, 07:38 PM   #44
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Nice to know how many people feel similar or at least understand what i'm getting at. My 2cents about this "class discussion" is that it should be kept simple for a while, to get it up and running.
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Old 2004.12.21, 08:42 PM   #45
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copied from my post in the Mini Cup US 2005 thread:

=====================================

I used to own a track and we ran quite a few big races. Class structure will always be a huge debate between racers, hobbyists, newbies, etc. The battery wars do hurt. I feel that you should ALWAYS just run the 4AAA's. The voltage regulation wouldn't work. In ANY r/c or fullscale racing series, the fuel is always regulated. In 1/10, not only is there a cell count limit (not voltage regulation), but the cells themselves are regulated. There are certain sub-c cells that are illegal. This is the only way to keep the playing field reasonably level. Allowing lithium cells would be like allowing a nuclear Formula 1 engine. The new technology would be cool, but it doesn't belong in racing until it can be standardized to some extent.

Now here is my $0.02 on class structure:

Spec or Sportsman class: BOX stock Kyosho chassis and motor. Here's the kicker: INTENDED for new racers! If you want to grow the hobby and promote a fun atmosphere for the new people, you CANNOT allow sandbaggers. Race director should always have the discretion to bump someone up a class or down a class.

Stock class: Stock motor, stock chassis. Iwaver and XMOD? chassis allowed (no 4WD). No lexan. Bearings and basic hopups allowed (alloy, toe, dampers, etc.). Any electronics, intended for convenience, not competitive advantage. FET boost for stock motor would have no effect, so why not let them run it. For those that just want a cheap way to race and have fun, but whose experience and skill level places them out of the Sportsman class. Again, race director has discretion to bump.

Superstock class: Stock motor. Any chassis. Any electronics. Lexan bodies allowed. This is stock class in the traditional sense. Ultra competitive.

Mod class: Any motor. Any chassis. Any electronics. Lexan bodies allowed.

Leftovers: 4WD. XMOD, DTM, Mini-X, etc. This is a provisional class.

What I've outlined caters both to the competitive race crowd, and to the fun crowd. There are some classes to get people into it, and some classes to keep the die-hards in it. Hard rules on 2WD and batteries to keep it from escalating out of control. Remember, this is a race, not a fun-fly or a car show.

The only people it really leaves out are those with hopped up 4WD cars due to their provisional status. Most of these can be detuned to fit into one of the classes (remove 4WD, run Kyosho stock motor, or run in mod class), for those on a limited budget. The rich guys should have no problem buying another "legal" car and help the industry!

On a final note, let's be real here. The size of the tracks that we will be running on are NOT big. You can talk about FETs and motors and batteries all you want, but after a certain point, power will not help you win. Most of the times it will help you LOSE on a small track. Most of the guys here actually run a slower OVERALL race in mod than in stock, so unless you can drive like those guys in the HK race vids (and I know some of you can), the real limitation is not the number of FETs or batteries or volts you have...
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