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Old 2004.12.21, 08:54 PM   #46
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nice. i like it
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Old 2004.12.21, 08:55 PM   #47
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does this thread win an ward for the fastest to 4 pages
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Old 2004.12.21, 08:57 PM   #48
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It's just because of your gigantic signature line.
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Old 2004.12.21, 09:00 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNB
It's just because of your gigantic signature line.
hmmm... doesn't change the defailt size of a reply frame
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Old 2004.12.21, 09:03 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruf
copied from my post in the Mini Cup US 2005 thread:

=====================================

I used to own a track and we ran quite a few big races. Class structure will always be a huge debate between racers, hobbyists, newbies, etc. The battery wars do hurt. I feel that you should ALWAYS just run the 4AAA's. The voltage regulation wouldn't work. In ANY r/c or fullscale racing series, the fuel is always regulated. In 1/10, not only is there a cell count limit (not voltage regulation), but the cells themselves are regulated. There are certain sub-c cells that are illegal. This is the only way to keep the playing field reasonably level. Allowing lithium cells would be like allowing a nuclear Formula 1 engine. The new technology would be cool, but it doesn't belong in racing until it can be standardized to some extent.

Now here is my $0.02 on class structure:

Spec or Sportsman class: BOX stock Kyosho chassis and motor. Here's the kicker: INTENDED for new racers! If you want to grow the hobby and promote a fun atmosphere for the new people, you CANNOT allow sandbaggers. Race director should always have the discretion to bump someone up a class or down a class.

Stock class: Stock motor, stock chassis. Iwaver and XMOD? chassis allowed (no 4WD). No lexan. Bearings and basic hopups allowed (alloy, toe, dampers, etc.). Any electronics, intended for convenience, not competitive advantage. FET boost for stock motor would have no effect, so why not let them run it. For those that just want a cheap way to race and have fun, but whose experience and skill level places them out of the Sportsman class. Again, race director has discretion to bump.

Superstock class: Stock motor. Any chassis. Any electronics. Lexan bodies allowed. This is stock class in the traditional sense. Ultra competitive.

Mod class: Any motor. Any chassis. Any electronics. Lexan bodies allowed.

Leftovers: 4WD. XMOD, DTM, Mini-X, etc. This is a provisional class.

What I've outlined caters both to the competitive race crowd, and to the fun crowd. There are some classes to get people into it, and some classes to keep the die-hards in it. Hard rules on 2WD and batteries to keep it from escalating out of control. Remember, this is a race, not a fun-fly or a car show.

The only people it really leaves out are those with hopped up 4WD cars due to their provisional status. Most of these can be detuned to fit into one of the classes (remove 4WD, run Kyosho stock motor, or run in mod class), for those on a limited budget. The rich guys should have no problem buying another "legal" car and help the industry!

On a final note, let's be real here. The size of the tracks that we will be running on are NOT big. You can talk about FETs and motors and batteries all you want, but after a certain point, power will not help you win. Most of the times it will help you LOSE on a small track. Most of the guys here actually run a slower OVERALL race in mod than in stock, so unless you can drive like those guys in the HK race vids (and I know some of you can), the real limitation is not the number of FETs or batteries or volts you have...

Yeah, this is pretty much what I feel is a good set up. The problem is that is this too many classes? If not this is exactally my sentiment. MOderator rules the course...cheat get kicked out...stop having fun...get kicked in the ass. We want everyone involved event hose people who cant afford a new MR02 but have gotten away from the x-mods with a IW01 or 02.

I cant go back and get here again....but was that TNB who said I wouldn't win ...I might not but I'm a terrible road block...sucks to try and lap me .


The one rpoblem I see is that...the stock tires are soo hard and some are softer than others. My 02 is about a 40 while my 01 was about a 192 (I use them as chains and run my OL on the ice with them
).

And if were not tweaking our cars between heats what are we to do?
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Old 2004.12.21, 09:12 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arch2b
hmmm... doesn't change the defailt size of a reply frame
I'm just giving you a bad time; however, long quotes do make a thread longer.
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Old 2004.12.21, 09:17 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNB
I'm just giving you a bad time; however, long quotes do make a thread longer.
it was time for a change anyway it was really behind in terms of albums too
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Old 2004.12.21, 09:25 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruknd@aol.com
Yeah, this is pretty much what I feel is a good set up. The problem is that is this too many classes? If not this is exactally my sentiment. MOderator rules the course...cheat get kicked out...stop having fun...get kicked in the ass. We want everyone involved event hose people who cant afford a new MR02 but have gotten away from the x-mods with a IW01 or 02.

I cant go back and get here again....but was that TNB who said I wouldn't win ...I might not but I'm a terrible road block...sucks to try and lap me .


The one rpoblem I see is that...the stock tires are soo hard and some are softer than others. My 02 is about a 40 while my 01 was about a 192 (I use them as chains and run my OL on the ice with them
).

And if were not tweaking our cars between heats what are we to do?
Depending on how many racers you have, it CAN be too many classes. At that point, it's up to race direction to run classes together and make sure that everyone still has a good time. With a proper driver's meeting and racing etiquette, a Sportsman or Superstock could be grouped into Stock. Also, chances are that someone with a Superstock-level car probably has a mod motor laying around and wouldn't mind the challenge of running in Mod class. On a side note, the 1st-place Stock driver at our last race would've lapped the 2nd-place Mod driver 3 times (he also won the Mod race), so who's to say that someone couldn't run a stock-motored Superstock-level car in a Mod race?

Stock tires would only be required in the Spec/Sportsman class. Softer tires would put you into the Stock class. Foams should probably be allowed in Stock class since most people feel that they are more of a preference rather than a performance advantage on RCP. As for being a backmarker in Stock class, you'd be surprised how quickly new drivers get fast when running with people a LITTLE bit faster, but not a WHOLE LOT faster. The Stock class would allow for that improvement without the intimidation being run over by a Superstock-level driver.
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Last edited by ruf; 2004.12.21 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 2004.12.21, 09:59 PM   #54
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Okay, it's my turn. This is my idea of how the classes should be and why. First, only three classes, any more is spreading it awfully thin, especially in places where Mini-Z racing doesn't have a lot of support.

Stock - Stock Kyosho or Iwaver chassis, and stock 130 motor. Only minor upgrades allowed such as bearings and wheel nuts, and tires.

A very basic and cheap class like this is important for the newbies and those on a limited budget.

Super Stock - Still, Kyosho or Iwaver chassis, but mod motors allowed, and fet upgrades would have to be allowed on the Kyosho boards I guess since Iwaver has muddied that issue. Only bolt on upgrades allowed, in other words, the bulk of the chassis is still recognizable as an MR01, IW02 or whatever.

This would allow any suspension and drivetrain upgrades, but no homegrown or high tech ingenuity not available to the general public. The idea is that anyone could put together a competitive car, but their driving abilities will be tested with the higher speeds allowed.

Unlimited. - The only restriction is scale, must be 1/28 to 1/24 scale. It will be fun to see what people come up with!

If any of this resembles someone elses already posted ideas I apologize, I just didn't have time to read four pages of posts.

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Old 2004.12.21, 10:01 PM   #55
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nice and simple, thanks for the ideas
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Old 2004.12.21, 10:34 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNB
ruf,
I'm not going to argue with you over the advantages of using modified or changing the FETs and still using the same motor though I have had numerous people tell me how the braking and acceleration characteristics have changed since adding FET stacks while still using a simple Kyosho Xspeed motor. For that matter the "pro" versions of the Iwaver supposedly have better FETS than either the Kyosho Mini-Zs or the non-pro versions of the Iwaver, so I'd assume there must be something there or people wouldn't make such a big deal about it--however, I would separate the pro versions from the non-versions. Either way I don't care since I have an S04 motor in one of my Enzos right now as well as some completely stock Iwavers and Mini-Zs.
I agree that the FETs would affect an Xspeed, but not a stock Kyosho motor. IMO, Xspeed should be run in Mod class.

Stock class by nature is going to have a varied pool of talent and equipment specification. I just think that we should try to minimize that without sacrificing the size of the grid. The most important thing is to insulate new people from intimidation. Keeping the Superstock guys from complaining about backmarkers and vice versa is strictly secondary.
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Old 2004.12.21, 10:46 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davkin
First, only three classes, any more is spreading it awfully thin, especially in places where Mini-Z racing doesn't have a lot of support.

David
Smaller r/c tracks have always bent class rules in practice when turnout was low. Simple is good in this case, but we still need a more regimented class structure for officially sanctioned events like this Mini Cup. The run-what-you-brung mentality may work great for 10-person club race, but would wreak havoc at a ROAR national event. Although a multi-class structure may seem like overkill, it needs to be in place as a guideline for changes to be made to suit the turnout on a provisional basis, and to be strictly adhered to at larger events. Otherwise this scale is just going to go the way of the Micro RS4.
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Old 2004.12.21, 11:33 PM   #58
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We are talking about an organized large race not a club race, aren't we? Then Super/expert Stock class could incorporate all 3 sub levels of stock and let the cars/drivers sort out in the mains. But award/recognize the top 3 in each main. When the heats are laid out, it would be up to the race director to subsort by ability, if known, and car spec which is known by car inspection.

The cream will rise to the A-main.........

Motor limit needed.........since motors aren't controlled by a sanctioning body, it's going to be tuff to limit unless you simply state a type or include a handout in the cost of the entry. Numbered and sealed endbells/cans. You can tweak it but the armature/can must be original and unopened.

Limit to 4AAA cells all stock classes. I still say the cheapest way to keep the field equal on batteries is to specify IC3's, heck for under 60 bucks you can get 8 cells and a charger. I really hate competing against high dollar batteries in any class.

Mod class, limit to 4AAA and min/max shell size, that's about it.

I am firmly against running varied times for the stock heats and mains. If you're only talking about 1-2 minutes, then run them all the same. Personally I'd like to see all races in the 9-10 minute range, but if 5 is more workable, fine, just keep the heats and the mains the same.
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Old 2004.12.21, 11:53 PM   #59
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wow, this thread is growing even faster than "New York Zity"
I prolly be wrong (again ) but lets see first how will the GTG DC-NYC will work out. will we be able to pull it out, to gather enough people, to find place and location.
~20 avid racers (me included) who post here doesn't make a National League yet unfortunately
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Old 2004.12.22, 01:04 AM   #60
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It seems we've got about four to six potential classes but were not sure how many participants in each class. I think it may be time to set up a poll on the site to see what class people will enter. Then we can have the most popular classes and weed out the ones that will have a unfavorable turn out. Not that they cant be added later but we dont want to see 2 people in a class at a given location...or none.

We ahve the ideas...now let the populus decide...heck..I'll enter no matter what the response is.
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