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Old 2006.07.17, 11:53 AM   #1
briankstan
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PN Ball Diff vs. Kyosho Ball diff

I have a few questions about the PN Ball diff, when compared to the Kyosho Ball diff.

I have the Kyosho Ball diff, and am wondering if these are the same? By looking at the pictures of the PN ball diff it looks like it is the same in design and parts as the K diff.

Are the following parts interchangeable between the two?

Spur Gear
Balls
Plates
Diff Shaft

If anyone know how many teeth the stock Koysho Ball diff comes with it would be greatly appreciated.

All the ones I can find say "direct replacement" but they say that even if they have different # of teeth.
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Old 2006.07.17, 12:36 PM   #2
builthatch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briankstan
I have a few questions about the PN Ball diff, when compared to the Kyosho Ball diff.

I have the Kyosho Ball diff, and am wondering if these are the same? By looking at the pictures of the PN ball diff it looks like it is the same in design and parts as the K diff.

Are the following parts interchangeable between the two?

Spur Gear
Balls
Plates
Diff Shaft

If anyone know how many teeth the stock Koysho Ball diff comes with it would be greatly appreciated.

All the ones I can find say "direct replacement" but they say that even if they have different # of teeth.
the stock kyosho ball diff spur is 44T.
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Old 2006.07.23, 07:59 PM   #3
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Just got one of these in.

Pros:
titanium shaft
flat diff rings - minimal sanding required
ball bearing supported spur gear

Cons:
10 balls = heavy
ball bearing supported spur gear = heavy
diff rings are thick, even a little thicker than Atomic = heavy

Decent out of the box. A little "sticky/smooth" feeling, but that may be down to the bearing support. Overgreased like most diffs. Definitely an improvement over the original PN. I built one up with 5 HCCA balls for a customer. Feels pretty good.
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Last edited by ruf; 2006.07.23 at 08:19 PM.
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Old 2006.07.25, 12:41 AM   #4
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hey, sorry for thread jacking, but is there a noticible difference in ceramic balls over hcca or stock balls?
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Old 2006.07.25, 05:08 PM   #5
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Noticeable difference; yes, no, and maybe, there are a lot of factors that come into play like flatness and smoothness of the plates, quality of the bearing, heat expansion, adjustment, track surface, driving skill, etc. The grade of the ball has a lot more to do with initial smoothness than the material it's made of which has more to do with how long they stays smooth and round.

If price is no object Ceramic Silicone Nitride is the absolute best. They are the lightest and the hardest period. After the Ceramics the HCCA ultralite’s are the lightest, but not as hard as the Tungsten Carbide and other High Carbon Chrome Steel/Alloy’s.

Note
All High Carbon Chrome Steel is technically an Alloy so even though the initials HCCA are usually referring to lighter weight balls they can also refer to heavier and harder high carbon chrome steel balls.

If hardness is what you need go with the Tungsten Carbide. If lightness is what you need, go with a HCCA ultralite, But remember silicone nitrite ceramic balls are lighter and harder than both.

Material composition aside "Grade" i.e. roundness/uniformity, and smoothness are a major part of the equasion; unlike ball bearings where the higher the certification number the smoother for balls the lower the “grade” the rounder and smoother the ball, so “Grade 5” are the best, “Grade 10” are good but not quite as round and/or smooth, and “Grade 25” even rougher and/or less round, if they don’t tell you the grade I automatically assume that it’s greater than 25. You could say that grade 5 balls are roughly equivalent to ABEC 7 bearings, grade 10 to ABEC 5, and grade 25 to ABEC 3’s, and un-named would then be unrated or ABEC 1 equivelents.

Ceramic balls weigh less, require less lubrication, stay rounder and smoother longer but are only smoother if they are a better grade. However many of the un-graded ceramic balls that are showing up for RC applications are what could be called "factory bargains" they are quite smooth and round (grade 5 equivalent) but failed for diameter being slightly off by a few 10,000ths of and inch or so making them un-gradable but still more than ok for our purposes. The problem is how to distinguish between these factory bargains and true factory rejects that are for example slightly out of round? I recommend sticking with graded balls, if you're going to shell out the extra bucks for ceramics make sure you are getting grade 5 balls settiling for anythging less would be silly considering the price.
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Last edited by LBRC; 2006.07.25 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 2006.08.14, 09:45 PM   #6
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Ok money is no object! So which diff and bearings do you recommend for my mr02mm? I like to go fast and i like to keep it smooth and lite...
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Old 2006.08.14, 09:50 PM   #7
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Quote:
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Ok money is no object! So which diff and bearings do you recommend for my mr02mm? I like to go fast and i like to keep it smooth and lite...
Kyosho Ti shaft, Kyosho ball diff, MZR dry race bearings (sold on this site)

Atomic's diff is a nice piece for a third of the cost of the kyosho bits and it comes with a ti shaft, but the ti shaft sometimes needs a washer on the one side under the wheel nut because the axle area for the wheel is a bit too long.
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Old 2006.08.14, 10:12 PM   #8
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Where do yall find these graded balls? I've only seen the stuff that PN and atomic offer. <-- what are those?
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Old 2006.08.14, 10:24 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nivlacs3z
Where do yall find these graded balls? I've only seen the stuff that PN and atomic offer. <-- what are those?
these are what you should get if you are going to upgrade your diff balls-

last one listed, HCCA ultralites...

http://www.acerracing.com/balls.html
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Old 2006.08.14, 10:42 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by builthatch
these are what you should get if you are going to upgrade your diff balls-

last one listed, HCCA ultralites...

http://www.acerracing.com/balls.html
No way, if you are going to the trouble of buying a set skip a Taco Bell run and spend the extra $7 bucks for the “Ceramic Nitride” Grade 5 balls, or at least the extra $2 for the tungsten carbide. Harder is better.
Not a bad place to order from, a good example of what I was trying to say about “grade” when you are selling grade 5 balls or even grade 10 you proudly list the fact.
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Old 2006.08.15, 11:38 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LBRC
No way, if you are going to the trouble of buying a set skip a Taco Bell run and spend the extra $7 bucks for the “Ceramic Nitride” Grade 5 balls, or at least the extra $2 for the tungsten carbide. Harder is better.
Not a bad place to order from, a good example of what I was trying to say about “grade” when you are selling grade 5 balls or even grade 10 you proudly list the fact.
hmm, i went with the HCCA because the tungsten are twice as heavy as the HCCA..in a mini-z the HCCA seems like an ideal choice considering the small scale and weight. IF i was racing offroad or a bigger, more part-stress intensive scale, i'd def run the CN, but for mini-z, i like the HCCA.

isn't it crazy that we talk about stuff as little as this...
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Old 2006.08.15, 12:19 PM   #12
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heh, I'll probably go for the ceramic nitride balls.... mmm balls of ceramic lol. Do yall think I'd be better off upgrading my ball diff first? Right now I'm using a GPM diff. I got my miniz used and it came with that. I've lapped the plates to 1500grit, however its still not level.
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Old 2006.08.15, 02:06 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by builthatch
hmm, i went with the HCCA because the tungsten are twice as heavy as the HCCA..in a mini-z the HCCA seems like an ideal choice considering the small scale and weight. IF i was racing offroad or a bigger, more part-stress intensive scale, i'd def run the CN, but for mini-z, i like the HCCA...
The ceramic are “79%” lighter than the tungsten carbide or in other words for teh HCCA half as light again but more importantly from a Mini-Z standpoint they require almost nothing in the way of lubrication so smoothest balls (grade 5) + hardest surface + non corrosive + absolute lightest = best choice.

For HCCA verses tungsten carbide; pardon the pun but the hardness out weighs the weight. With only 5 balls in an open Kyosho 3/32 ball type diff over time there can be a surprising amount of wear on the differential balls, and even though we are splitting hairs here the grade 10 HCCA balls don’t stay grade 10 long even in a Mini-Z.
Quote:
isn't it crazy that we talk about stuff as little as this
Too true
Quote:
Originally Posted by nivlacs3z
heh, I'll probably go for the ceramic nitride balls.... mmm balls of ceramic lol. Do yall think I'd be better off upgrading my ball diff first? Right now I'm using a GPM diff. I got my miniz used and it came with that. I've lapped the plates to 1500grit, however its still not level.
If you are considering a new diff you would need to get it first the GPM diff uses Six 1/8” balls unless you have the twelve ball which uses twelve 1/16” balls compared to the Kyosho which uses five 3/32” balls. So when switching diffs your balls would not be interchangeable.

My favorite diff is a modified Ti shaft GPM 12 ball, even with the extra ball bearing it’s only 4 grams and is killer smooth, problem is the modifying part, the GPM plates are crap and although easy to smooth out the leveling is hard, I also replace the balls and both ball bearings. Which is why I usually recommend just getting a Kyosho then when/if you feel you need them upgrading the balls later. The great thing about the Kyosho is the plate quality the bad is price.
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Old 2006.08.15, 04:05 PM   #14
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how does that GPM diff compare to a kyosho diff with a Ti shaft weight wise? Would the kyosho diff be the one to get if I don't have the machine neccessary to level out the plates?
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Old 2006.08.15, 05:23 PM   #15
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Depends on which GPM diff you are talking about the 6 or the 12 ball.

The GPM 12 ball has the added weight on the 2nd ball bearing but is a might svelter than the Kyosho, also the space taken up by the ball bearing is aluminum and plastic in the Kyosho so in the long run when both have titanium shafts and ceramic balls the weight is virtually identical even when measured to the 1/10th of a gram.

Performance wise I really like my modified GPM 12 ball’s but to be honest I can’t really tell the difference between them and my Kyosho diffs. And the fine thread of the adjustement screw is a plus for the Kyosho. I currently have one Ti shaft Kyosho and one stock shaft both with ceramic balls. I also have one modified Iwaver diff, with Kyosho torsion plates, grade 5 ceramic balls, and an abec-5 bearing that falls into the I can’t really tell the difference category too, although I can’t vouch for the consistency of the Iwaver shafts and other parts, with Iwaver it's sort of a gamble on what you get.

Haven’t tried it but if the Iwaver parts are still copies of the Kyosho (the one I have is) I’ve wanted to try a Kyosho Ti shaft, Kyosho Plates, good ball bearing (the Iwaver is crap for side pressure), ceramic balls and the Iwaver aluminum pieces, certinally cheaper than the uber expensive alternative of spending mega bucks for a Kyosho then replacing the shaft. I have the parts to try but not the inclination to disassemble two perfectly good cars and diff’s to find out.

Also haven’t had a chance to disassemble and play with the Atomic or PN racing differentials, but if the Atomic and Kyosho thrust washers are interchangeable am thinking an Atomic Ti shaft diff at around $25 would be a terrific choice for an upgrade platform since you can pick up the ultra level Kyosho plates for around $5 bucks, if needed.
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