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Old 2018.02.14, 06:52 PM   #1
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New 2wd chassis' on the market

So, Ive been away from the hobby for a little while. I am getting back into RC, and dont see much discussion here about the new 1/28 scale 2wd chassis' that are on the scene. So lets talk...

First, I want to mention my view on a few things. My opinion is that 2S LiPo is too fast for any brushed motor in a 2wd chassis. The motor wear is very high at 7.4v for extended use, and the motor will be damaged after a few race nights. Brushless, 2S can be suitable with a 3500kv motor, but anything more on RCP would be too fast. On carpet, more motor can be used, 5000kv should be usable. 1S would be a more ideal power solution for 1/28 scale racing with existing brushed motors, and brushless, but there are very few brushless ESCs that have internal voltage boosters to raise voltage for the receiver and servo.

Jomurema JR128-R01 $170 standard, and $250 pro
This recently popped up on Kenon, and is a 1s LiPo brushed RTR. It uses a FS-GT2 / 2.4 GHz digital proportional Radio Transmitter. The ESC has a voltage booster to raise the voltage for the servo. It comes equipped with bearings, PN ball differential, and has a 40t 130 brushed motor limit.

It uses pull rod single a-arm front suspension, with a gimbal style rear suspension

I think this would be an ideal car for an entry class to get people into the hobby. Speed would be controllable from a power standpoint with 1s power, and the price looks good to recommend for new racers trying to get their feet wet. It looks like the Pro model that has aluminum chassis, adjustable side shocks to adjust tweak and alu motormount. It doesnt look like there differences in electronics between the standard and the pro.

If the plan is to upgrade to brushless, or use 2S LiPo, I am not sure if this would be the ideal choice since you will basically be swapping all of the electronics and radio. The Pro looks like a very good value for a race ready car out of the box, as long as the balance of power in the class is appropriate.

It comes with a body, but looks like it would need an adapter kit to accept ASC bodies. Which is a minus for racing with the ASC bodies, but if a class is run as a spec sportsman class, it could be used to increase growth in the scale.

GL Racinging GLR $180 chassis with servo/BL ESC
With similar style to a 1/12 pan car, a ball pivot with side link rear suspension. Front suspension is similar to the MR03. The car is designed for 2S LiPo brushless. I think a 1S sensored ESC with voltage booster would be more suitable for this scale.

The car looks clean, and is designed around brushless use. It can accept ASC bodies more easily by using their standard front body clips, and can use lexan bodies with posts and pins...

Link cars traditionally havent worked as well on RCP due to the bumpy nature of the track. Being 2s powered, I feel that it might be too much power for an average driver with more than 3500kv motors.

Atomic 2WD has yet to be released, they have made an announcement with a silhouette image on their social media site... It looks like a ball pivot/side link car as well.

Lets have a discussion, if anyone has tried these cars, and what do you feel about them. What do you feel about power vs motor in your club? What would you run?

I am happy to see new chassis' available, to give some competition to Kyosho... however, I feel that the push to 2s power is too much for the current motors on the market for close racing. I feel that only the Jomurema car can race directly with the AAA Mini-Z, since it is 1S, and a motor balance would be needed to ensure similar speeds. Like AAA 70t and 1S 60t...

Lets discuss it
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Old 2018.02.15, 06:56 AM   #2
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With aftermarket platforms in commercial production, we are finally at a point where the scale is no longer 'Kyosho Mini-Z' but more of a true 1:28 scale with many options from several manufacturers and explosion of home grown/engineered 3d print jobs. We may see a shift in what is generally considered 'Mini-Z' racing away from the actual Mini-Z. Lexan bodies, pan car style chassis, etc. aren't my cup of tea and but for many, it's something they are familiar with already and likely to replace many 'Mini-Z' classes moving forward.

Very exciting times for the scale! Thanks for the brief summary of the options. I don't dabble in anything other than AAA so it's always nice to read up on these reviews of what's out there. One day...
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Old 2018.02.15, 12:02 PM   #3
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The thing with 1/28 racing, is that there needs to be a common ground between the cars. Race organizers will need to decide whether these cars are suitable to be raced with the existing mini-z class structure, and what adjustments will be needed moving forward.

As you can see in the above post, I am in favor of 1s operation of Lipo, but don't care for 2s because its simply too fast for racing anything but modified classes. With the majority of new chassis being designed for Lipo only, the electronics now are becoming more limiting in choice of power...

I personally prefer that asc hard bodies would be used in everything but perhaps a prototype or modified class. These bodies are what drew many people to this scale.
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Old 2018.02.15, 01:13 PM   #4
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Thatís going to be a tough long slog to get that done. Iíve been trying to get a common core set of rules going for the better part of a decade and it always ends up in shouting down other for this or that.

Iím sticking to autoscales myself as well. The scale beauty is what got me hooked, not the speed, widgets, gadgets or what have you. I personally find pan classes boring aesthetics. Itís all of a very few styles almost all done in the same shredded or torn pain style. Thatís just me though, Iím sure most probably donít care.
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Old 2018.02.15, 03:21 PM   #5
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With the routes that Kyosho has been taking with thme electronics, switching bands and requiring a different transmitter for some, there is no single transmitter that can operate ASF, MHS and FHS (I hope I got all of the acronyms correct). This becomes a barrier of entry for anyone that currently races other scales and might think about racing in this scale. The Kyosho electronics are confusing to newcomers, and require greater investment by larger scale racers looking to build a car to race. Requiring a new radio just for a mini-z.

The mini-z has been a great platform for racing, and great for hop up manufacturers due to its modularity. As racers we can use one companies front end, with another's rear... with the introduction of manufacturer chassis, we will lose some of that cross compatibility.

In general, I think we are looking more towards a move towards 1/28 scale racing... but the fundamentals of the class structures need to be laid out. Maybe this is discussion for a different thread?

On a side note, it looks like much of this scale conversation has gone the way of social media, with little to no paper trail on the information shared... the beauty of a forum is its searchability. I have been off ant form of social media for years.
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Old 2018.02.15, 04:01 PM   #6
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From what I understand from some FB pages I follow not only is "mini-z" outdated in ability but in Mod classes the go-to chassis is AWD-TC.

I don't have any experience with the newer generation of aftermarket "Mini-12ths" (as I like to call them) and probably never will. I feel that at 7.4 volt that these cars are getting too light and fast for my skill level.

I'm very much in agreement that these chassis should be run 1S, if only to give me an opportunity to use them without being overwhelmed by their pace.


I'd imagine there'd have to be a new class structure made for 1S li-po....good luck getting agreement for that.
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Old 2018.02.15, 10:30 PM   #7
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Imo... 2s LiPo it 2s2p LiOn on rcp is the way to go... Is it harder to drive? Yes it is....can you get used to it? Yes you can.... 3500kv @100% is capable of getting near lap record times of a 7500kv @70%... In my hands.....
2s2p LiOn 3500kv is really similar to 50t bb NiMh
2s2p LiOn 5500kv is similar to 33t Nimh
2s2p LiOn 7500kv Is the next level of racing.... Hahahaha
As far as 4wd VS 2wd?... 4wd is fast and capable... At the WC level.... The 4wd has won on low grip tracks... And the 2wd has won on high grip tracks 4wd does not suit my banzai driving style... And I agree with emu that sidelink cars don't seem to work as well on rcp... And pretty much anything works on carpet..... HahahahaAnd I have spent a lot of time in the past few years trying and testing to find the next level and currently working on a GM spec set up for the Austria car.... As a base car it is really good... I have tested both std and pro kits.., and I the process of building a hybrid of both... And running on 2s Lipo brushless 5500kv
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Old 2018.02.15, 11:10 PM   #8
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Thanks for the feedback Grant . Its been a while...

When I mention that the car is too fast, I am not really saying so for my driving, but for good close stock style racing. The average driver will be far less consistent with speeds on 2s, and its hard to bring new racers in when closing speeds are so high in practice and racing. The most common race class was 2wd stock, which is a good speed target to focus on to get people to come and race...

I have not used Lion, just Lipo, which has noticeably more current than the aaa cells. I also used brushed cars only... mainly due to the senseless esc and motor combos. I think for modified racing, and 2s is fine... but for stock or pro stock class racing, there is no brushed motor that I have tried 2s that hadn't felt like a modified car, therefore unless 2s is restricted solely to brushless, it should only be accepted for modified.

We're in a weird position in this scale right now, where we need to figure out balance of power for mini-z racers to race along side newer entries. For stock speed racing, i think 2S is just too fast, because you need to take into account brushed motors... 1S with a 50t should be similar to AAA 70T? That may be a starting point.

We can't just say everyone should go the way of 7.4v, because the brushed motors simply are not there for anything but modified, and many racers aren't ready for the switch to brushless. Brushless has come a long way, but in order to get mini-z racers on vacation back to the track is to make it accessible to both old and new tech. This is where the dilemma of the scale lies. People will not want to buy new cars when they have already invested a lot into their current fleet in storage.... those that sold their cars, or have never raced will be looking for a lower cost of entry.

Maybe 3 basic classes will be needed,
Stock: 1S 50t(or brushless equivalent) with 4.8v 70t(or brushless equivalents).
AAA pro stock, 48t or brushless equivalent.
And finally open modified.

My opinion, in order to keep racing at this scale going, we need accessibility to both old and new tech, and try to figure out how to make them play nice together...
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Old 2018.02.16, 06:57 AM   #9
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I'll chime in on the 2S as well. It really depends on your track. On my home track (basement) anything more than an XSpeed motor is WAAAAYYYY overkill, its just too small and tight of a track to drive. Most of the smaller tracks I find on Youtube would also have an issue I would expect (with the exception of those crazy huge PN World layouts wow).

Now at our local racing rack (MC3, Mini Car Club of Canada) we are blessed with a HUGE area for track layout and a HUGE selection of track pieces. The layout's Shawn creates are typically massive (to my mind, certainly not PN World's size) and have really good "flow". The good drivers are pretty much all 2S and 6900KV at least and can get down it 7 to 8 second ranges where as the mere mortals are 10 to 14 second. The car is damn near a blur but the track is wide enough where it needs to be and the cars can carry the speed.

I find with the normal 90 degree RCP corners (Wide-L style) you just can't blast through them like the 3-Tile curved corners.

---

For the aftermarket chassis I'm all for it as I can't stand the high price of the Kyosho controller boards (VE not Sports). Having these nice carbon chassis with almost off-the-shelf electronics make it much easier to keep the car running or easier to swap out when having issues. That being said I do love the Autoscales and as Arch pointed out, it's what attracted us to the Mini-Z in the first place.

The issue with Autoscales is that they go out of production so quick and unless you "stock up" before that your going to be out of luck. They also tend not to handle full modified racing very well (damage at speed). I'm still considering "personal not for sale" Lexan/PETG copies so they will survive better. Too bad someone hasn't started to sell good detail bodies yet (licensing likely far too expensive).

---

There are alot of new cars this year so it will be interesting to see how it goes. Where is this new Jomurema made?

Cheers
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Old 2018.02.16, 07:43 AM   #10
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Track size definitely plays into this. in my experience, a majority of clubs are not running tracks large enough to handle the crazy speeds these are capable of. For the average club/shop/store, the issue has been and remains, how do you generate sales and turn those into racers. As others have touched on, providing an avenue for someone to get into the scale is pivotal to success of a program. The club I lead has an active and successful program since 2004, which always includes a 'stock' class and modified class with various others coming and going over time. I say 'stock' in the sense that there is likewise, little consensus on what this means as well since Kyosho's abandonment of the Kyosho Cup series in our market post 2004.

One must consider the audience when tackling this discussion as well, as for a large majority of us racers, there are no PN, Atomic, Kyosho or otherwise large track series available. If your lucky enough to live in proximity to one of the few remaining retail locations, or areas in which manufacturers series participate, the course of the conversation can change drastically.

I've always been of the mindset that while modified has it's place and certainly is thoroughly fun and enjoyable, it's not the end all or paramount class in the scale or the top of the mountain so to speak. I've seen some truly spectacular modified class races with blistering track times over the years and would pass on all those to watch or participate in a close, competitive and well driven 'stock' class.

One key factor in the success of the scale (as an organization) is to adapt. Failing to do so only leads to demise. Rules, classes, etc. all need to adapt to the changing technology or allow for it's integration. The club I lead has recently permitted 3500kv with fixed gear ratio into 'stock' class in order to better accommodate the actual products available at retail and what we see racers coming into the club with as beginners. You simply cannot buy a stock brushed car that isn't a Sports series anymore. The only people buying Sports series are those looking to dabble or those interested without dumping a small fortune (relatively speaking). I would not say our club 'stock' class is any more or less fun than our modified but participation numbers tell a different story and 'stock' typically wins by a land slide. As someone who has created and managed a club for 14 years, I am very passionate about this scale and have a keen interest in it's success and thus it's ever changing environment. I always get a chuckle in reading someone state 'mini-z is dead'. Can't tell you how many times I've seen that since 2000 or so. 19 years later, were still talking about them.
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Old 2018.02.16, 03:50 PM   #11
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I agree with Grant on all his assessments...with a few additions below.

First disclaimer is that our club track (Inside Line Racing in Northern CA) is pretty large, on the order of 20x15 RCP tiles or larger. Second disclaimer is that most of the regulars have been racing for several years so are pretty seasoned. The majority of us have now converted over to running 2S2P lithium (the PN AAA cells or other) for most classes except for novice stock.

50T brushed NiMH, 9/54 gearing=5500kv NiMH 8/54 gearing= 3500kv lithium 2s2p 8/54 gearing (we experimented with this briefly).

At Inside Line Racing our "novice stock" class has been 50T brushed NiMh or 5500kv NimH, which is a fair clip faster than 70T.

All of our modified racers are now running lithium 2s2p with either the 7500kv PN or 6800kv GL motor. Throttle high points are turned down about 10% or so from maximum. These cars are noticeably faster than NiMH 9500kv and require more skill to handle.

We have another expert "super stock" class running 2s2p lithium, 3500kv, 14/54 gearing with lexan bodies (the GL P1M). This class is highly competitive, most of the drivers are within 1 tenth of each other so racing is very close. These cars are easier to drive than the full mod cars, they are less explosive/gentler on throttle so easier to modulate. They can hit lap times within 1 or 2 tenths of the full on mod cars.

The lithium batteries are much easier to maintain than nimh in terms of not needing rigorous charge/discharge routines and cell matching. This is a huge advantage (especially for me as both my son and daughter race so I'm supporting 4 cars at once and prepping 50 sets of batteries per race day).
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Old 2018.02.16, 03:58 PM   #12
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Some good equivalency info on motors/batteries! Really should collect this into a comparison chart for reference.
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Old 2018.02.16, 06:09 PM   #13
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Do you post videos of your races at Inside Line? I would like to see some.
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Old 2018.02.16, 06:15 PM   #14
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I also agree on trying to figure out a good "entry level stock" chassis/motor/battery combo, again very dependent on club and track size. It's tough for a newcomer to get started now with all the different chassis/motor/batteries available. With pretty much all of other RC having gone to lithium, running older nimh technology is a tough sell (especially with those coming from larger scale RC cars). Similarly buying a dedicated ASF/MHS radio for mini-z is also daunting. Some of these newer chassis are attractive as they allow use of any radio (similarly this can be done with the PNR25W chassis and separate PN ESC/servo board).

When my kids first started racing they were running 50T brushed nimh which is pretty fast, I ended up turning down their throttle to simulate something closer to a 70-80T. Slowly over the course of a year or so I increased it as they became more proficient. I think the same can be done with the 3500kv 2s2p lithium package geared to 8/54, the top speed can be turned down without losing drivability (this motor has a ton of torque). It's hard to convince a beginner that consistency is more important than top speed when starting out, but eventually most get it.

Over the past year we've unfortunately seen the slow death of our "stock" class, due to a couple of factors (such as new track location, drivers moving on to higher classes, etc...). In years past we would have a large number of stock drivers with A, B, and even C and D mains, but nowadays we're lucky to have a even a single stock heat with more than 3 or 4 racers.

It makes it all the more difficult for newcomers to join as they don't have racers at a similar level to compete against; it's tough starting out going against those with years of experience who are 2-3 seconds per lap faster. Not sure how to address this or if there are any other ideas to attract and keep new drivers, more than once I've seen a new face come out to the track a few times only to disappear later on.

-Arthur
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Old 2018.02.16, 06:30 PM   #15
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Keely View Post
Do you post videos of your races at Inside Line? I would like to see some.
Yep....most of our race videos are on youtube, linked through the Inside Line Racing website race results pages (and on social media):

http://www.insidelineracing.com/posts/


Example novice "stock" race (5500kv nimh, 8/54 gearing):
https://youtu.be/p7OdUiQoWt4

Example expert "super stock" race (3500kv lithium 2s2p, lexan body, 14/54 gearing):
https://youtu.be/YARW8UQuD-M

Example "modified" race (7500/6800kv 2s2p lithium, ASC body, open gearing):
https://youtu.be/veWNr9jcLBY


Again keep in mind most of us have been racing for several years so are pretty seasoned, and we have some PN team drivers as regulars. Some of us have even won against Grant

-Arthur
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