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Old 2004.12.21, 08:57 AM   #46
ELMO4635
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We have had this discussion (classes...) at our local track, over and over again, and it seems to never get resolved...

I personally like to see the "box Stock" class at our local races, it brings in newcomers and kids and people who are new to the spoort of RC. But, on the other hand, when someone goes out and buys some bearings, alloy wheels and wheel nuts (which everyone does!), then they are not "Box Stock" anymore??

I would like to see the classes more mimic the old days of electric rc racing, two classes, "Stock" and "Mod", all based on the motor you are running... would make it much easier to police and end all the frustration of exactly what upgrade gives someone an advantage.

What does everyone think? Maybe this should be posted in another forum as well??

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Old 2004.12.21, 11:48 AM   #47
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see the thing is you want newer drivers to be able to participate, so maybe we should regulate among how fast they are? In 1/10 we run novice/sportsman/expert and mod doesn't exist here.

Regulations

Box-Stock
-Kyosho MR01/MR02 IWaver 01/02(Non Pro)
-All stock parts, but bearings/wheel nuts may be fitted onto the mini-z, and stock KYOSHO Motor.
-Any tire/wheel combination (includes alloy wheels).
-No FET Upgrade/ No Turbo
-Must fit under 1/24-1/28 Scale Shell (Be it Lexan or Kyosho etc.)
-

Super-Stock
-Chassis allowed-Kyosho mr01/02 iwaver 01/01pro/02
-Any Hopup allowed, Any NON-FET/TURBO Motor
-Any tire/wheel combination (includes alloy wheels).
-Must fit under 1/24-1/28 Scale Sheel (Be it Lexan or Kyosho, etc.)

Pro-Mod
-Any chassis allowed i.e. kyosho mr01/02 iwaver 01/01pro/02 pro-Z, mini-X, xmod,
abc dtm/sp, custom made/home made etc.
-Any Hopup allowed, Any Motor with use of FET Stacked (180/130/whatever)
-Any wheel/tire combination (includes alloy wheels.)
-Must fit under 1/24-1/28 Scale Shell (Be it Lexan or Kyosho, etc.)
-voltage must be _._v and under.

Rules
-Racer must have at least 2 sets of crystals in order to participate.
-AM/FM All allowed.
-Penalty box for extreme hacking of others and/or wreckless driving ( and i mean on purpose, which can obviously be seen (over and over and over again) )
-Late and/or no prepardness causes disqualification and/or points loss.
-Qualifiers will be 2 sets and 1 main for each (A, B, C etc. (depending on how many racers))
-wheelbase musn`t exceed ____mm (undecided)
-track width musn`t exceed ____mm (undecided)
-Must have use of _______ transponder (or maybe you could handout, but i think cheaper more practical transponders unlike 70$ AMB personals should be used in this race, or bought for that matter.)



I know there is stuff to be added so help me out! Thanks.


or, we can do it like this (rough draft)

1/24 Open Stock,
-Choose class novice/sportsman/expert
-Must use motor without fet upgrade
-any chassis allowed
-any hopup allowed
-wheelbase musn`t exceed ___mm
-track width musn`t exceed ___mm
-voltage musn`t exceed _._v


1/24 Open Mod
-Choose class novice/sportsman/expert
-Any motor allowed
-Any hopup allowed, tires, wheels, suspension etc.
-Any chassis allowed.
-Wheelbase musn`t exceed ____mm
-Track width musn`t exceed ____mm
-voltage musn't exceed _._v
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Last edited by McLaren F1 T3; 2004.12.21 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 2004.12.21, 11:58 AM   #48
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Seems there are Pro's and Con's to whatever way we decide on things... I just hate to exclude anyone, and hate even more to bump someone up into a higher class before they are ready.
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Old 2004.12.21, 12:38 PM   #49
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Also setting up rules like this will stop hobby shops from participating.

Most places race Mini-z classes because that is what they sell. They don't
want to get into selling all the after market chassis. So to set rules that
will exclude almost all the drivers at hobby shops and would make the Mini
cup Nationals not take off.

So the rules have to be fair for everyone (if that is possible) and make it so the best driver wins. Not the one who spends the most.
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Old 2004.12.21, 01:09 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wcrotty
Also setting up rules like this will stop hobby shops from participating.

Most places race Mini-z classes because that is what they sell. They don't
want to get into selling all the after market chassis. So to set rules that
will exclude almost all the drivers at hobby shops and would make the Mini
cup Nationals not take off.

So the rules have to be fair for everyone (if that is possible) and make it so the best driver wins. Not the one who spends the most.
exactly if it's not simple enough for everyone, it will only work against you in the end (for those who host and sponsor events).
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Old 2004.12.21, 01:41 PM   #51
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I think we're only looking for about half a dozen locations, preferably independent LHSs like Crotty's or enthusiasts who are able to rent a space to set up their track, so do we really need to be a slave to the big corporate non-enthusiast franchised LHS' interests? Most of the participants so far are independent LHSs like Crotty's or private groups who will rent a space for the event.
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Old 2004.12.21, 02:01 PM   #52
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and as an independant, i could not afford the overhead of hand out rules. i understand that it pays for itself in registration fees but the initial costs are the hosts burden. unless i have all this wrong.....
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Old 2004.12.21, 02:16 PM   #53
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Well, depending on how far in advance signup is, we could mail out X kits plus Y extras and you could mail back the unused?
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Old 2004.12.21, 02:25 PM   #54
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very true.... i'm sure it could be made to work.
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Old 2004.12.21, 04:58 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mini-z
I think we're only looking for about half a dozen locations, so do we really need to be a slave to the LHS' interests? Most of the participants so far are independent.
Makes up my mind on the subject
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Old 2004.12.21, 05:14 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wcrotty
Makes up my mind on the subject
i am hoping you would be one of the people hosting this as well. we already have the equipment, the racers etc..... we just need to develope simple and easy to apply rules. that's the whole point of the mcusa section. it's obviously going to take some time to flush out the details and well, the whole class and rules issue is already on page 3... i think we should just modify the k. rules and be done with it. simple, sweet and to the point. then we can concentrate on finding locations and bigger problems
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Old 2004.12.21, 05:58 PM   #57
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Batteries!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IMHO, limit Box Stock and Super Stock to the IC3's.

Let the mod classes fight the battery wars! I've fought these wars for years in 1/10 and it gets real expensive buying packs every year when a higher MAH cell is introduced. To the best of my knowledge there is no way to mod the IC3 cells or chargers yet............?

.........Box Stock should not run Lexan shells, otherwise what is Box stock? Keep the Lexan option open to the Super Stock.

My 2 Cents worth.....
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Old 2004.12.21, 06:39 PM   #58
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It's good that everyone has interest in big races and uniform rules. BUT the classes are way too fragmented.

Realistically a small scale track will have enough regular weekly racers to maybe run 2 full classes 1/18th and 1/27th scale. Now your proposing splitting 1/27th into certain death.

Theirs none of these silly rules in larger RC racing for a reason.

Box stock is a way to get new blood and wean them into a regular class of racing. Not the main form of racing. Theirs so many Box stock versions it should be up the individual track to make the decision to run a box stock class.


Stock motor class
mod motor class

Number of cells
Max wheelbase
Max width
Min weight


Everyone uses the same power plant and does what they can to win not restrict everyone to the weakest link on the track.

Lets have Real racing not Spec racing.
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Old 2004.12.21, 06:48 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro-Z Racing
Theirs none of these silly rules in larger RC racing for a reason.
The last I knew ROAR limited the heck out of using brushless motors so why shouldn't there be a FET limit in addition to the motor especially when it appears that different types and brands of R/Cs will be run outside of an "outlaw" class? As mentioned before, most of the other larger Z scale races have limited the boards.
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Old 2004.12.21, 07:18 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAMZer
Batteries!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IMHO, limit Box Stock and Super Stock to the IC3's.

Let the mod classes fight the battery wars! I've fought these wars for years in 1/10 and it gets real expensive buying packs every year when a higher MAH cell is introduced. To the best of my knowledge there is no way to mod the IC3 cells or chargers yet............?

.........Box Stock should not run Lexan shells, otherwise what is Box stock? Keep the Lexan option open to the Super Stock.

My 2 Cents worth.....
I totally agree. I used to own a track and we ran quite a few big races. Class structure will always be a huge debate between racers, hobbyists, newbies, etc. The battery wars do hurt. I feel that you should ALWAYS just run the 4AAA's. The voltage regulation wouldn't work. In ANY r/c or fullscale racing series, the fuel is always regulated. In 1/10, not only is there a cell count limit (not voltage regulation), but the cells themselves are regulated. There are certain sub-c cells that are illegal. This is the only way to keep the playing field reasonably level. Allowing lithium cells would be like allowing a nuclear Formula 1 engine. The new technology would be cool, but it doesn't belong in racing until it can be standardized to some extent.

Now here is my $0.02 on class structure:

Spec or Sportsman class: BOX stock Kyosho chassis and motor. Here's the kicker: INTENDED for new racers! If you want to grow the hobby and promote a fun atmosphere for the new people, you CANNOT allow sandbaggers. Race director should always have the discretion to bump someone up a class or down a class.

Stock class: Stock motor, stock chassis. Iwaver and XMOD? chassis allowed (no 4WD). No lexan. Bearings and basic hopups allowed (alloy, toe, dampers, etc.). Any electronics, intended for convenience, not competitive advantage. FET boost for stock motor would have no effect, so why not let them run it. For those that just want a cheap way to race and have fun, but whose experience and skill level places them out of the Sportsman class. Again, race director has discretion to bump.

Superstock class: Stock motor. Any chassis. Any electronics. Lexan bodies allowed. This is stock class in the traditional sense. Ultra competitive.

Mod class: Any motor. Any chassis. Any electronics. Lexan bodies allowed.

Leftovers: 4WD. XMOD, DTM, Mini-X, etc. This is a provisional class.

What I've outlined caters both to the competitive race crowd, and to the fun crowd. There are some classes to get people into it, and some classes to keep the die-hards in it. Hard rules on 2WD and batteries to keep it from escalating out of control. Remember, this is a race, not a fun-fly or a car show.

The only people it really leaves out are those with hopped up 4WD cars due to their provisional status. Most of these can be detuned to fit into one of the classes (remove 4WD, run Kyosho stock motor, or run in mod class), for those on a limited budget. The rich guys should have no problem buying another "legal" car and help the industry!

On a final note, let's be real here. The size of the tracks that we will be running on are NOT big. You can talk about FETs and motors and batteries all you want, but after a certain point, power will not help you win. Most of the times it will help you LOSE on a small track. Most of the guys here actually run a slower OVERALL race in mod than in stock, so unless you can drive like those guys in the HK race vids (and I know some of you can), the real limitation is not the number of FETs or batteries or volts you have...
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Last edited by ruf; 2004.12.21 at 07:30 PM.
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