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Old 2006.04.05, 02:44 PM   #16
imxlr8ed
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Suspensions can be tuned to accept higher degree tires, if the rear is not hooking up... it doesn't always mean it's the tires causing it. It could be anything from the dampening rates to type of H-plate. I run my tires to near nothing all the time (near paper thin) and the car usually runs near the same all the way through them. I rarely buy tires, I think this is a great advantage for the Z as opposed to other scales. I've never used traction compounds either, and I don't really see the need to.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that, if a car has a tuned suspension setup, you should be able vary your degree of tire up or down a bit, with hardly any noticeable effect. If I was to put it to a ratio... I guess I'd have to say, 40% tires... 60% setup.

Examples:

Spring rates on the front of the car can make a set of 8s run like a set of 20s, especially if my front end is lowered.

If my diff is too tight, my cars going to push more in the turns when the rear tires hook up.

If I'm running too hard of a plate, and it allows for no side to side on the rear, it's going to be hard to get any tire to hook up.

I can only explain what I have experienced... I can also say that I save a bunch of $$$ not having to buy new tires all the time. When I first started out, I was buying a new set of tires almost every month, Now it seems to be maybe once every 4 or 5 months.
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Old 2006.04.05, 02:50 PM   #17
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Track temp can also play a big factor in the setup of the car. On a cold track you won't get the grip that you would otherwise.
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Old 2006.04.05, 03:27 PM   #18
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looks like some posts were deleted here?
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Old 2006.04.05, 03:28 PM   #19
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A little insight of my experience... I bought a brand new Mucrielago ready set for my X. She rarely drove it. (twice literally) I decided to get a disc damper (PN multilength), and a Speedy BB 05, and 8 deg tires front and rear.

This car... without suspension/bearings/kingpins/h plate...... ran like a DREAM.

So I'd have to say tires are actually... 70% of the cars handling characteristics... 10 of that percent is with a damper to keep the rear planted. The rest of the 30... is setup.

Now as for actual output of the car... 80 driver 20 car.

Just my opinions. Well at least at the tracks that I run at, I find it this way. I too can run the car down to the bone on the tires. But I don't like doing that because there is less circumference. I don't mind letting the fronts wear down. It acts as low profile tires on a car. More instant handling.

Reguardless, you can really get a fully bone stock Mini-Z to handle great with just a set of tires. I believe they are actually most important. However in real world, it's a whole different story. I believe that a cars suspension is a bit more important than tires.
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Old 2006.04.05, 03:46 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMan
Now as for actual output of the car... 80 driver 20 car.

A truer statement has never been spoken.
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Old 2006.04.05, 03:50 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briankstan
A truer statement has never been spoken.
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Old 2006.04.05, 04:09 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMan
A little insight of my experience... I bought a brand new Mucrielago ready set for my X. She rarely drove it. (twice literally) I decided to get a disc damper (PN multilength), and a Speedy BB 05, and 8 deg tires front and rear.

This car... without suspension/bearings/kingpins/h plate...... ran like a DREAM.

So I'd have to say tires are actually... 70% of the cars handling characteristics... 10 of that percent is with a damper to keep the rear planted. The rest of the 30... is setup.

Now as for actual output of the car... 80 driver 20 car.

Just my opinions. Well at least at the tracks that I run at, I find it this way. I too can run the car down to the bone on the tires. But I don't like doing that because there is less circumference. I don't mind letting the fronts wear down. It acts as low profile tires on a car. More instant handling.

Reguardless, you can really get a fully bone stock Mini-Z to handle great with just a set of tires. I believe they are actually most important. However in real world, it's a whole different story. I believe that a cars suspension is a bit more important than tires.
Pretty obvious that tires have the most affect, considering that they're the only element touching both the track and your car. Same goes for real cars, motorcycles, bicycles...whatever. You can't tune anything else properly (including suspension), if you don't have your tires dialed in.

On a side note (since you seem to have alot of experience with dampers), do you know if the Atomic disk damper will fit the PN MM alloy motor mount? Thanks!
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Old 2006.04.05, 04:18 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bolter9
You simply cannot properly tune your car if you don't first have the only surface between your chassis and track dialed in (tires).
Couldn't agree more.

That's why I have one full Plano case just for tires. They really are a large part of tuning a Mini-Z. A good selection of tires is crucial for racing.
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Old 2006.04.05, 04:37 PM   #24
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Oh... wait a minute, I'm not trying to say that if you get the suspension setup right, you can just run stock tires on a MiniZ... no, you have to at least be in the 8s - 20s (tire degree range) to run on an RCP. I just think that if traction compounds are used to maintain a level of handling with a certain car, if it needs that much traction to get around, something might be up with the other aspects of it.

I run most of my cars as near as stock as possible now... I have to admit that those guys at Kyosho got it real close out of the box ! Just ashame they put those hard tires on them from the factory !
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Old 2006.04.05, 06:32 PM   #25
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I run very worn 8s on my MR-01 on the front and new 8s on the rears for traction. The worn tires help eliminate the traction roll problem with the 01s, along with lowering the front end.

I have found that the thing that can mess your car up the most in handling is the diameter of the front tires being different. This became most apparent racing in the point series. Racing in both directions.

Either you have to swap the tires side to side when you change directions or make sure you keep the diameter of the front tires the same. I have found the tire that wears the most is the outside left since we race mostly clockwise. The loading on that tire at the end of a long straight tends to wear that tire more than the right side.

I have a box of used tires I use to bring my car back to where I want it when I need to match track conditions. Track temperature definately affects grip. Where we race the building heat is not always on when we get there and the surface changes as the room heats up.

I agree that clean consistent driving is the key to doing well when you race and is a major percentage of the car/driver combiation.

Car setup is a very personal thing. What works for you might not be hell for the other guy because everyone's driving style is different. Sure there are people with similar styles but as long as you can get your car to handle and be competative, your on the right track. imxlr8ed and I run pretty well but we can't drive each others cars for crap. Neither is wrong, just different.
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Old 2006.04.05, 06:39 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gasman1
Car setup is a very personal thing. What works for you might not be hell for the other guy because everyone's driving style is different. Sure there are people with similar styles but as long as you can get your car to handle and be competative, your on the right track. imxlr8ed and I run pretty well but we can't drive each others cars for crap. Neither is wrong, just different.
I certainly agree with that- some people prefer more understeer, some prefer more oversteer...same with punchy vs. linear exceleration/deceleration. Any minor alteration in these areas can make a car really difficult to drive compared to what someone might be used to.
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Old 2006.04.05, 09:38 PM   #27
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tires

hey guys , tire size changes gear ratio also . just thought i'd throw that in . ..........jb.
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Old 2006.04.06, 12:43 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bolter9
I certainly agree with that- some people prefer more understeer, some prefer more oversteer...same with punchy vs. linear exceleration/deceleration. Any minor alteration in these areas can make a car really difficult to drive compared to what someone might be used to.
In the end, there is a certain art to a certain setup that will always be the most efficient for carry speed and maximum steering, (tight lines and speed through those lines) that will always win. You may find someone with a fetish for understeer, and you may find someone that likes the rear coming out a bit. But there is an equilibrium that is key that will always be perfect and best. Once it comes to 'that' point, then it is at that time that the driver then has to conform his style to get used to that car.

When that is done, and you have 2, 3, 4 people of that nature on the track, it's a beautiful thing. You'd almost think you are watching ESPN racing. I know because I'm a part of this with some of my partners. It feels like you are controling 4 cars simultaneously. INSANE

I thought weight lifting got your endorphins going, but man, I didn't think this would compare.
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Old 2006.04.06, 01:24 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMan
But there is an equilibrium that is key that will always be perfect and best. Once it comes to 'that' point, then it is at that time that the driver then has to conform his style to get used to that car.
I dissagree- in real racing, driver's always make tweaks to their cars to cater to their personal driving styles- they wouldn't do this if it didn't make them faster. Same goes for RC cars. Sure if the basics aren't down, then no one will be fast on a particular car, but we're not talking about making sure your tires have air, we're talking about minor tweaks to cater to driving styles.

Take F1 for instance- arguably the team cars are the same mechanically, but it's common knowledge that each driver's car is set up to cater to his own preferences in regards handling- and with that, they're expected to turn equal lap times.
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Old 2006.04.06, 01:34 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bolter9
I dissagree- in real racing, driver's always make tweaks to their cars to cater to their personal driving styles- they wouldn't do this if it didn't make them faster. Same goes for RC cars. Sure if the basics aren't down, then no one will be fast on a particular car, but we're not talking about making sure your tires have air, we're talking about minor tweaks to cater to driving styles.

Take F1 for instance- arguably the team cars are the same mechanically, but it's common knowledge that each driver's car is set up to cater to his own preferences in regards handling- and with that, they're expected to turn equal lap times.
But there are winners and losers. I'm sure you know what I'll say next
These are Mini-Z's not real cars. I think in a real car setup is more important. I'd like to someday take you to a track where I race at and have you race my murcielago. Just to hear your input. Because you can only say so much from wondering. Experiencing is a whole new world.

Any chance you'll ever race out in NY? LOL
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