2019.03.06, 12:04 AM
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#136
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PN RacingTEAM Driver
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: southern calfornia
Posts: 1,530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briankstan
1. yes the PN 2.5 chassis is allowed.
2. Autocale bodies is basically limiting it to a hard plastic body.
No Lexan bodies allowed.
Lexan windows are permitted but need to be installed covering all windows like the kit piece.
Lexan windows that you remove the plastic roof and replace with lexan are not allowed.
You cannot cutout the hoods and back of the car.
you can narrow or round the front bumper splitter so it won't grab or get stuck in the rails. I'm ok with a little grinding for wheel clearances etc.
3. I'm ok with most of the lexan and 3d printed wings I have seen. as long as they are scale to the car they are fine. The PN folding lexan wing is fine. anything bigger should be considered not legal. use you best judgement, if it looks suspect feel free to post a pic and I'll review.
also consider the car must meet the minimum weight of 170grams as well.
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Looks like my whole club is DQ.except for Sam and Daniella as they ran the box stock car.... Hahahah
Last edited by yasuji; 2019.03.06 at 12:19 AM.
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2019.03.06, 01:16 AM
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#137
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briankstan
very nice run. there weren't any times for lots of those tracks because our club was the main one that ran the time trials. most of the tracks that don't show times don't fit in our race space. that's also why we aren't competing this season as only 1 of the tracks fit. We'll shoot for next season.
I look forward to seeing what you can do on some of the tracks that you can compare times to. specifically 1,2,3,4,6,18, some of the others only have times from our club.
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Ok, thanks Brian. Sorry you can't fit the tracks this season
In the coming months I'll try some time trials on the tracks you have data on. I'll also try and run a 3500kV motor to compare against the 5500kV to see if there's a large difference in times.
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2019.03.06, 01:33 AM
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#138
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTseo
Very impressive Arthur, you and your kids.
It's funny that kids today don't enjoy running mini-z as much as I think I would have when I was a kid. My oldest son is 10 and I have to talk him into practicing with us. I think you would have had to drag me away from the track when I was a kid, but maybe that is just my skewed memory of how much I loved anything rc.
As far as motors go, could we include a brushed equivalent to the 5600kv brushless limit. Maybe a 48t or 50t? Or maybe we could have a stock class with 70t and 3500kv limit and a super stock class with the 48t and 5600kv limit.
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Thanks MTseo. My kids started mini z when they were 10 and 7 (found ILR when trying to plan a birthday party), had to convince them at first but they started to enjoy it once they became more proficient. As I kid I was also totally into anything RC (mainly planes, later helicopters). Tried to get my kids also interested but it was hard, I think these days there's just too many electronic and other distractions. With mini z we can spend some regular fun family time together, at least when most of our cars are working well
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2019.03.06, 01:36 AM
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#139
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yasuji
Looks like my whole club is DQ.except for Sam and Daniella as they ran the box stock car.... Hahahah
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What happened Grant, did you run bodies with lexan roofs?
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2019.03.06, 09:01 AM
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#140
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Guest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by art4242
Completely agree, EVO is nowhere close to stock. We've been racing weekly for years so have built us a serious collection. I did start off in the beginning with a mostly stock MR-03, and slowly progressed with various upgrades over time as my driving improved with practice.
I had the same problem with the track layout in the garage and parking as well. What worked well for me was to just detach the track in half down the middle, and put sections of 4-6 tiles still attached together flipped over (racing surface touching racing surface) on top of the other side of the layout. When I wanted to practice just move the car out, flip the sections back and reattach. Takes me <5 minutes, much faster than ripping the entire track apart.
Our fast times were only really 3.7's, not 3.2. We're probably gaining a tenth or so because our tiles are new/traction is high, and another tenth or so from our faster motors, and are cars are pretty decked out with double-A arms and PN chassis. So 4.2s is really pretty close and some good times with a nearly stock car. More important than fast laps are consistency and being able to stay off the walls to clock in the max number of laps, which just comes with lots of practice .
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I was attempting something similar, though due to a pole in the garage it was requiring a bit more work then i seemed to be wanting to put in. As I think my biggest issue right now is a combination of setup (either back end kicking out or traction rolling, depends on the day) and mostly just wheel time, i am hoping this will help.
I am running a mildly modified HFAY car. PN70T, PN front lower arm and flipped king pins, V3 LCG 94-98 pod. My best CW time on the Feb layout was 4.242 but my Mean (best that ZRound will show for consistency) was 5.033. Thats a combination of just drivers skill (and lack of), racing other people, and carpal tunnel which makes most everything throttle wise after minute 5 a guessing game as my hand is mostly numb at that point. We had also moved the track inside due to weather and i went from a loose back end to traction roll and never got it right before the main.
Really i think it comes down to carrying corner speed (which is easy to scrub with these cars) and as you say, consistent driving. To me, its just incentive to get better.
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2019.03.06, 09:28 AM
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#141
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Jordan, Utah
Posts: 6,877
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yasuji
Looks like my whole club is DQ.except for Sam and Daniella as they ran the box stock car.... Hahahah
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What was the item you had and issue with? if it was the Roof that is something that wasn't available back when we last discussed rules. If the participating clubs are good with it so am I as long as the weight minimum was met.
Like I said these are older rules and can be adapted based on the discussions among the competing clubs. As more and more developments happen it's harder and harder to keep things level. Even Kyosho has made if very difficult with all the different options they now put out just in the different boards.
the main goal it to keep it as fair as possible and provide a competitive racing environment.
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2019.03.06, 09:49 AM
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#142
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PN RacingTEAM Driver
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: southern calfornia
Posts: 1,530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briankstan
What was the item you had and issue with? if it was the Roof that is something that wasn't available back when we last discussed rules. If the participating clubs are good with it so am I as long as the weight minimum was met.
Like I said these are older rules and can be adapted based on the discussions among the competing clubs. As more and more developments happen it's harder and harder to keep things level. Even Kyosho has made if very difficult with all the different options they now put out just in the different boards.
the main goal it to keep it as fair as possible and provide a competitive racing environment.
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Yes the top three from our club ran the jomurema body with the lexan roof
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2019.03.06, 11:54 AM
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#143
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ocala, FL
Posts: 180
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From my perspective, one challenge with HFAY is to find a set of rules that meets the interests/desires of all the racers. I think that is one reason some groups have gone to so many different classes. (not that I'm advocating for this. I miss the R/C days of the 1980's when you had two classes - stock and modified)
It appears that currently there are everything from purpose built/almost custom cars all the way down to box stock cars participating in HFAY.
Certainly there should be a place for those that want to race pan cars, lexan bodies, modified motors, etc.
There also needs to be a competitive place for stock or almost stock cars as well.
Speaking for my group, with the exception of 2 of us, all are new drivers. We preach practice, learning to drive and improving over time. But it is hard to keep them focused and not getting frustrated when they see the cars and hop ups that others are running. They (incorrectly) begin thinking they need to spend and have all the fancy stuff.
The reality is that even if we limited everyone to box stock cars, the driver standings probably wouldn't change at all. The top drivers will still be the top drivers. But by providing some limitations, newer drivers would feel that with practice they could get better and have better results, rather than think (incorrectly or not) that there is no point because someone else's car will always be faster.
I have seen it over and over in various classes of R/C car racing and real car racing... The higher the bar is set to be competitive, the lower your level of participation will be.
My hope is that HFAY and other similar efforts will bring more people to the hobby of racing mini-Zs by being inclusive and providing opportunities for all to participate.
HFAY has taken great strides to create a level playing field with tracks and timing systems so anyone, anywhere can participate. I guess I'm wondering out loud (or in print) if the same thing needs to be done with car specs.
I hope this post is not viewed as negative. I think HFAY is great and i appreciate ALL the hard work that is put into organizing it. This is just one perspective focused on ensuring more people can find and enjoy this wonderful pastime
__________________
Radio Active Racing/ Central Florida Mini Z Racers
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2019.03.06, 12:00 PM
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#144
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 35,480
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While I feel it would be best to hold to the existing rule in which lexan window replacements are accepted but not entirety of the roof, the min. Weight requirement in some measure takes this into account. What the lexan roof replacement does however is really shifts the center of gravity lower vs. just a window replacement as some models roof’s are much more expansive than others but on the opposite hand, some are rather tiny thus you could argue either way.
I only ran lexan window in cars to make rule out transponder issues vs. weight savings. Especially in cars like the 599 where placement of the transponder can be challenging to get good exposure.
I would love to get some time trials in with my 90mm Jomurema body. I really enjoy this body more at 90mm personally.
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2019.03.06, 12:21 PM
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#145
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 35,480
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HFAY was begun with far more stringent rules (white end bell stock motors only for example) and over time has had to adapt to the ever changing technology and advancements made over time. In the end, you end up with a reasonable open set of rules that garners the tinker crowd that otherwise would not participate in anything stock and maintains as much a level field as practical with battery, motor and track sizes limits. As i’m Sure you know, you are correct in that one need not spend a fortune to perform well. Most simply cannot can’t fight the urge to splurge (myself included). I’ve been handely beaten many time in FHAY lap counts by far more stock cars than I have. With the right skills, you can make a box stock awesome.
Further restrict HFAY and you loose the guys that trend toward MOD class. Open up HFAY even more and you loose the guys that were once the foundation of HFAY, beginner clubs, smal groups, etc. HFAY had to stride a fine line of being flexible enough to adapt to maintain relevance and enforce enough to maintain a reasonable measure of evenness. HFAY is not a stock class. If someone is running a blinged out chasssis in stock class, there is a greater deviation in what stock means, and this is a real problem with the scale in general. There is little agreement what ‘stock’ is, especially if your running 70T with ball diff, aluminum motor pods, aftermarket dampers, etc.
we have also broached the subject as a group about adding classes to HFAY but in the end, felt that would only further fragment participation and add complexity to the website and management of the results, etc. I believe it could be done but not one that would be able to advise on how.
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2019.03.06, 12:56 PM
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#146
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ocala, FL
Posts: 180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arch2b
HFAY was begun with far more stringent rules (white end bell stock motors only for example) and over time has had to adapt to the ever changing technology and advancements made over time. In the end, you end up with a reasonable open set of rules that garners the tinker crowd that otherwise would not participate in anything stock and maintains as much a level field as practical with battery, motor and track sizes limits. As i’m Sure you know, you are correct in that one need not spend a fortune to perform well. Most simply cannot can’t fight the urge to splurge (myself included). I’ve been handely beaten many time in FHAY lap counts by far more stock cars than I have. With the right skills, you can make a box stock awesome.
Further restrict HFAY and you loose the guys that trend toward MOD class. Open up HFAY even more and you loose the guys that were once the foundation of HFAY, beginner clubs, smal groups, etc. HFAY had to stride a fine line of being flexible enough to adapt to maintain relevance and enforce enough to maintain a reasonable measure of evenness. HFAY is not a stock class. If someone is running a blinged out chasssis in stock class, there is a greater deviation in what stock means, and this is a real problem with the scale in general. There is little agreement what ‘stock’ is, especially if your running 70T with ball diff, aluminum motor pods, aftermarket dampers, etc.
we have also broached the subject as a group about adding classes to HFAY but in the end, felt that would only further fragment participation and add complexity to the website and management of the results, etc. I believe it could be done but not one that would be able to advise on how.
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Good input. Thanks Ray.
__________________
Radio Active Racing/ Central Florida Mini Z Racers
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2019.03.06, 11:27 PM
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#147
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 81
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I feel the rules have worked out. The only thing that has frustrated us in the beginning is figuring out how others are setting up there cars to do so good. I know a lot of it is the driver but shoot darn does setup on these cars do a lot.
I think HFAY has enough flexibility in the rules that it forces you to figure out how to get the speed by dialing in your car. That is super important to learn.
The Next Level Timing software was built originally for practice. A ton of the features were focused around teaching the racer how important consistency was. I think HFAY is all about that too. 8 minutes is a long time. It forces you to stay consistent, not bump things, and just get a few more laps in. We adopted it in our club because it allowed us to have a goal and metrics along the way to show our improvement. We are working hard to join the 100 lap group.
I think it is important to be aware that everyone is in a slightly different environment. Not just location but group of people. We compete locally and enjoy seeing where we were nationally so we can improve. The national results serve as a mechanism for us to harass the top racers to get racing tips.
My vote is to be more inclusive. You'll never please everyone.
UPDATE FOR NLT COMMUNITIES
You all asked for it and I'm delivering. I copied/edited the Racer manual to a page accessible on the How Fast are You community page.
I updated parts where it mentioned the hfay web site and explained how to participate in HFAY by registering on the nlt website and contact me. As well as added a link to this forum so they can join us here in our discussions.
https://nextleveltiming.com/communit...e/racer-manual
If you have time, please take a look at it and let me know of any thing that should be fixed/adjusted. I can also split it into several pages on the site. The page is in a database so one day I will add a tool so Brian and others he wants to edit can. It is a feature I want to offer to all the communities in the future but I am just trying to smooth out the wrinkles with HFAY as quickly as possible.
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2019.03.07, 06:47 AM
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#148
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 35,480
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Interestingly enough, the core participants for HFAY have always been the small clubs. There was a time when a vast majority were small clubs, mostly without local retail support. Over time many of the clubs, similar to WDC GTG, grew and evolved into more formal clubs with retail support venue. In the early days it was a real struggle to get the more established clubs to participate as they didn’t really enjoy the slower classes and predominantly focused on MOD class enterprises. It seems from the outside that HFAY enjoys a more eclectic membership today which is a good thing. Every club is a bit different in it’s bent or leanings toward classes, etc. If we are able to reach a consensus such as HFAY, that is in itself a Huge achievement really. If you think about it, what other class has such broad support of both established retail factions all the way down to factions running out of basements, garages, and driveways and has been in continuous operation for almost 14 years.
Thank you for the continued efforts on the website. That in itself makes a huge difference in being able to distribute information and spread the word so to speak. As soon as WDC GTG finds a new location, we will rejoin HFAY provided space permits. In the mean time we have rolled into Remnant which offers top class competition levels but space size is not compatible with HFAY. It’s fun to see the mission continue though .
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2019.03.07, 08:44 AM
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#149
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Jordan, Utah
Posts: 6,877
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I'm loving all the comments from everyone. If you have the time, you should read through some of the lengthy discussion in the HFAY section on this forum over the years and you'll have a better understanding of how this all came about.
As Ray has said it had a core group that the rules were driven by but we have always considered any questions that have arised and tried to address them the best we could buy keeping it fair.
Kyosho all buy itself made if pretty difficult when they started releasing all the different options in a stock car, different motors, different boards with different fets, AM to 2.4, ASF, MHS, FHSS, etc. Then add in the different manufactures and the ones that were helping support us so rules were added or changed to meet the ever changing.
Our first attempt was the atomic stock, but we quickly realized it was way faster than the Kyosho White end bell stock motor. then we basically ended up changing the rules to a more open set and based it around the 70T bushing motor.
this will need to be revised here as well, because the new PN 70T motor is a bearing motor and the bushing motor is phased out.
we ended up with a class based around a motor that was the limiting factor. if you work on the setup you can improve but the car will still only go so fast with a limited batter and a specific motor.
I look forward to all the discussion to come about how we should proceed in the future both to keep interest and keep the participants engaged.
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2019.03.07, 08:45 AM
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#150
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Jordan, Utah
Posts: 6,877
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BladeSling
I feel the rules have worked out. The only thing that has frustrated us in the beginning is figuring out how others are setting up there cars to do so good. I know a lot of it is the driver but shoot darn does setup on these cars do a lot.
I think HFAY has enough flexibility in the rules that it forces you to figure out how to get the speed by dialing in your car. That is super important to learn.
The Next Level Timing software was built originally for practice. A ton of the features were focused around teaching the racer how important consistency was. I think HFAY is all about that too. 8 minutes is a long time. It forces you to stay consistent, not bump things, and just get a few more laps in. We adopted it in our club because it allowed us to have a goal and metrics along the way to show our improvement. We are working hard to join the 100 lap group.
I think it is important to be aware that everyone is in a slightly different environment. Not just location but group of people. We compete locally and enjoy seeing where we were nationally so we can improve. The national results serve as a mechanism for us to harass the top racers to get racing tips.
My vote is to be more inclusive. You'll never please everyone.
UPDATE FOR NLT COMMUNITIES
You all asked for it and I'm delivering. I copied/edited the Racer manual to a page accessible on the How Fast are You community page.
I updated parts where it mentioned the hfay web site and explained how to participate in HFAY by registering on the nlt website and contact me. As well as added a link to this forum so they can join us here in our discussions.
https://nextleveltiming.com/communit...e/racer-manual
If you have time, please take a look at it and let me know of any thing that should be fixed/adjusted. I can also split it into several pages on the site. The page is in a database so one day I will add a tool so Brian and others he wants to edit can. It is a feature I want to offer to all the communities in the future but I am just trying to smooth out the wrinkles with HFAY as quickly as possible.
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Blaine, I could have easily sent you the files for you to edit rather than redo everything. If you need anything else let me know, I'm happy to share what I have.
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