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Old 2019.03.01, 11:07 AM   #1
MTseo
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HFAY motors

Is there a list of which motors are ok for the HFAY season races? A few I know for sure are
Kyosho stock brushed motor
PN 70t
PN 3500kv BL

Any others?
And are Lithium batteries allowed for any of the motors?
Our new evo cars are coming in soon and I am going to start getting them ready for the PN race in April. But we may start using them for HFAY too if the allowed motors are equivalent. We will be running PN 5500kv BL motors in them for the PN race.
We all curently use the PN 70t motors.
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Old 2019.03.01, 01:41 PM   #2
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Batteries
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Nickel Metal Hydride AAA size batteries only. 4 cells only! (Any brand
Motors
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You can still use the Box Stock motor that came with your RTR kit, but we prefer you use a HFAY Spec motor. Working with PN Racing we have found a motor better suited to keeping all of our competitors a little more evenly matched. Remember, there is no FET limit on the cars, so this motor works out quite well for this rule. You can order this motor from the websites:
Legal Brushless Motors: All motors with a 5600 or lower KV rating are legal. Including but not limited to PN 5500KV, Atomic 5000KV Kyosho Eco 5600KV, X- power 4500 & 5000KV motors. (Open gearing for both).
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Old 2019.03.01, 02:51 PM   #3
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Thank you. I knew I had read that somewhere but could not remember where.
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Old 2019.03.01, 05:28 PM   #4
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Sometimes I wonder if we need to revisit this. The car I used for the last 2 racers has the PN 5500 with a VEpro board and a bunch of other HFAY legal hop-ups. It is very smooth and very fast (perhaps too fast for me) on a track this size. I geared it WAY down (8t pinion, 52t spur) and it still screams compared to the 70t cars. It feels more like my older Atomic Stock R 48t. Now, as you will see in the standings, I am being beat by my friend and his 70t car, so the walls become the great equalizer. My motor is definitely faster though.
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Old 2019.03.01, 06:30 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by TPDazzle View Post
Sometimes I wonder if we need to revisit this. The car I used for the last 2 racers has the PN 5500 with a VEpro board and a bunch of other HFAY legal hop-ups. It is very smooth and very fast (perhaps too fast for me) on a track this size. I geared it WAY down (8t pinion, 52t spur) and it still screams compared to the 70t cars. It feels more like my older Atomic Stock R 48t. Now, as you will see in the standings, I am being beat by my friend and his 70t car, so the walls become the great equalizer. My motor is definitely faster though.
That's been my experience as well. I have 3-4 cars set up within HFAY spec, and the brushless VE Pro with the PN 5500kv motor is significantly faster than al the others. Can't say I turn more laps or faster laps, but I can walk away from people on the straights.
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Old 2019.03.11, 05:19 PM   #6
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I did some experimentation over the weekend as there was a lot of discussion of 5500kV vs 3500kV/70T and changing the HFAY rules, and I'm new to HFAY so very curious. There's no doubt that the 5500kV car has more power/top speed, but it seems from past experience with this size of track a faster motor will actually hurt total #of laps as it's harder to control.

I setup HFAY track layout #1 and ran the 50 lap time trials to use as a comparison (and to also see what times I could achieve ) Differences will probably be a little greater on other layouts with more straightaways.

I had two identical cars, one with a 3500kV PN motor, the other with a 5250kV GL motor (about the same as a 5500kV PN motor).

I ran both cars through several trials and here are the best runs for each car:

5250kV: 3:22.152
3500kV: 3:24.868

I recorded these two runs here if you'd like to see:
3500kV: https://youtu.be/FYtek3dJmko
5250kV: https://youtu.be/SZ03J-UMTVk

So basically two and a half seconds difference.

I will say for sure that the 5250kV car was more difficult to drive, I tried several runs but always had one or two mistakes in each run. The 3500kV car I could pretty much turn 50 laps without any mistakes on every run, and was generally much easier to drive consistently.

Since I'm an engineer I did some quick statistics on the runs, see attached PDF. What's really interesting is that:

- Fast lap on the 5250kV was 3.767s vs. 3.931s for the 3500kV ( a .164s difference) but

- Average of all 50 laps was 4.024s for 5250kV vs 4.080s for 3500kV, or only a .056 sec difference.

- Consistency or standard deviation was significantly better with the 3500kV (.075sec) vs. the 5250kV (.160 sec)

If you divide the average lap over a theoretical perfect 8 minute (480 sec) run, you get 117.6 laps (5250kV) vs. 119.3 laps (3500kV).

In the end it's really less than a 2 lap difference. Which can easily be eaten up by a few more bobbles with the faster car. So in the end I think having a faster motor is only a slight advantage if any. Keep in mind that I have been running modified for a couple years so am used to higher speeds, as shown by Brian's historical HFAY data in general the faster motor will results in less overall laps.

As a point of reference, me and my kids ran the March HFAY track 10 layout over the weekend. We experimented in practice with 3500kV motors, then with 5500kV motors. Me and my daughter (both used to modified) did more laps with the 5500kV, but my son (not as used to modified) did more laps with the 3500kV.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf HFAY Time Trial Track 1 motor analysis.pdf (72.3 KB, 6 views)

Last edited by art4242; 2019.03.20 at 12:51 AM.
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Old 2019.03.11, 07:30 PM   #7
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thanks for posting your times for what you ran on track one. Those are fast times for sure.

Great Analysis on the speed/motor comparisons as well.
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Old 2019.03.11, 08:39 PM   #8
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Art, thanks for sharing the data. Your data shows essentially what we have been debating... on the small track, when you are limited in ability to use the extra power, the results will be determined by corner speed and consistency. This is similar to the brooklyn track which I race, 70t/3500kv is pretty much the fastest on the track because you really cannot use the extra power of faster motors.

My only gripe is using these rules as a base for larger circuits, which the difference in motor becomes apparent. The larger track events will see a greater delta in lap time.
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Old 2019.03.12, 12:00 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briankstan View Post
thanks for posting your times for what you ran on track one. Those are fast times for sure.

Great Analysis on the speed/motor comparisons as well.
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Art, thanks for sharing the data. Your data shows essentially what we have been debating... on the small track, when you are limited in ability to use the extra power, the results will be determined by corner speed and consistency. This is similar to the brooklyn track which I race, 70t/3500kv is pretty much the fastest on the track because you really cannot use the extra power of faster motors.

My only gripe is using these rules as a base for larger circuits, which the difference in motor becomes apparent. The larger track events will see a greater delta in lap time.
Running on these smaller HFAY sized tracks has been an eye opener for me as well.

When we had a large permanent track at ILR (20+tiles), to do well in stock class we'd need to use matched batteries freshly peaked to extract every ounce of speed. With HFAY it's much simpler, it's not a chase for raw speed/power and I've been running older practice batteries not freshly charged without issues. The smaller track puts much more emphasis on handling and cornering consistency which I think improves driving skills.
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Old 2019.03.12, 01:38 AM   #10
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I have yet to drive HFAY, but I spent plenty of time driving the mini-96 track, and the current track in Brooklyn emphasizes corner speed over horsepower, although good cells do make a tenth or two on the straight there. The modified times are equal at best with the 70t/3500kv times, but consistency suffers. We used to run a stock and pro stock class, but most racers just raced the same car in both classes because it was the fastest way around the track.

Car setup is also considerably different for small track vs large track. On small tracks, you can increase camber gain and lower the roll center to good effect, where on large tracks you try to raise roll center and reduce camber gain, with more static camber to prevent traction roll and keep the car flat through the corners. Typically it is easier to drive a large track car on a small track than a small track car on a large track.
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Old 2019.03.12, 06:50 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMU View Post
Art, thanks for sharing the data. Your data shows essentially what we have been debating... on the small track, when you are limited in ability to use the extra power, the results will be determined by corner speed and consistency. This is similar to the brooklyn track which I race, 70t/3500kv is pretty much the fastest on the track because you really cannot use the extra power of faster motors.

My only gripe is using these rules as a base for larger circuits, which the difference in motor becomes apparent. The larger track events will see a greater delta in lap time.
You raise a good point there with regard to track size. The BTE for example would benefit from the >3500 motors as the track size is larger and incorporates wide inside turns. Even at Remnant which is about BTE size, see’s a slight edge in the >3500 motors, depending on whom is piloting them of course . Once you get to say 4 tracks or larger, <3500 will only be a detriment. If any place with such a track is using HFAY class rules, the current format should suit fine though as it allows <=5600. Once you get to even larger tracks or tracks with essentially 3 tile lanes your opening up to even faster speeds. I’m not really a fan of anything more the 5600 myself and never run anything more than this. I never really cared for, nor saw the need to make a 6” car go crazy fast but that’s a personal opinion as it’s clear there are plenty that do. I do find it a bit ironic though that the places that focused on sheer speed over all else have dwindled down to nearly nothing while places with strong stock/pro stock have fared better through the great hobby recession.
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Old 2019.03.12, 01:34 PM   #12
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I started dialing down the Hi Pot value on my controller for my 5500, 9500 and 11000 motors a fair amount (from 60 on an EX-1 UR to 35 or so), and find them much more drivable on most track configurations.
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Old 2019.03.12, 02:58 PM   #13
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HFAY is so much fun exactly the way it is, but in my opinion we need to either allow faster brushed motors or lower the motors allowed for brushless to 3500kv. The only reason I say that is because if somebody running a 70t wants to gain more speed the only option they have is to convert to brushless and buy a brushless motor which is quite pricey. But if for instance x-speed 50t were allowed it would only cost them $20 for the speed increase.
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Old 2019.03.12, 03:36 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTseo View Post
HFAY is so much fun exactly the way it is, but in my opinion we need to either allow faster brushed motors or lower the motors allowed for brushless to 3500kv. The only reason I say that is because if somebody running a 70t wants to gain more speed the only option they have is to convert to brushless and buy a brushless motor which is quite pricey. But if for instance x-speed 50t were allowed it would only cost them $20 for the speed increase.
Which is why I favor going down to 3500 over opening up to 50T.
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Old 2019.03.12, 03:53 PM   #15
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on a 2 wide L track I prefer to keep it 70T & 3500KV as the base rules. I feel anything more is mostly unusable except by a few, and really they don't need the extra speed to be faster.
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