2014.06.17, 03:49 PM
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#16
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 35,480
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i think the issue is that the atomic 5000 and pn 5500 are not really equivalent to the eco motor based on feedback. i have the 5000 and its easily above 70t speeds.
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2014.06.17, 06:29 PM
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#17
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MINI-Z BODY NUT
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: pa.
Posts: 5,028
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I know this doesnt help with a 70T but the 2 slowest PN brushless motors are a really nice speed without being rediculously fast.
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MINI-Z BODY NUT
DG DESIGNS - PN RACING - MANTISWORX
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2014.06.18, 06:43 PM
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#18
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MINI-Z BODY NUT
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: pa.
Posts: 5,028
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From what i understand, I talked to Philip (PN) about this. He tested 4000 and 4500 kv motors. 4500 is still faster than 70T. The 4000 motor, Because of the 4 AAA batts dont provide enough power and the 4000 coggs to much as of now.
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MINI-Z BODY NUT
DG DESIGNS - PN RACING - MANTISWORX
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2014.06.19, 08:22 PM
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 582
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With Lipo would there be as much cogging because with the larger scales doesn't lower kv mean it works better with higher voltage just a thought because at Majs everyone is running lipo and there are many options for batteries not just the x-power. Many are using cheap hobbyking 2s packs and just grinding out the chassis a little. Anyways just a thought.
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2014.06.19, 08:25 PM
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#20
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MINI-Z BODY NUT
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: pa.
Posts: 5,028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMALMAD
With Lipo would there be as much cogging because with the larger scales doesn't lower kv mean it works better with higher voltage just a thought because at Majs everyone is running lipo and there are many options for batteries not just the x-power. Many are using cheap hobbyking 2s packs and just grinding out the chassis a little. Anyways just a thought.
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Yes, i think that would be true.
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MINI-Z BODY NUT
DG DESIGNS - PN RACING - MANTISWORX
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2014.06.19, 08:36 PM
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#21
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 582
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The only problem is I don't know if the average mini-z racer is willing to invest in either an x-power chassis plus buying new lipos or cutting their chassis and or rewiring it with the AAA sized lipos or shaving their chassis flat to fit HK lipos. Personally the lipos make life so much easier because I have all the power I want and I dont have mess with the Nimh. Even after investing nearly 200 dollars just in matched aaa's I still won't go back. Also with lipo there is not a need for brushless, with an Mrx (x-power) and a 43t motot I have to turn the throttle down to 50 high point with -40 curve. A couple of racers tried the brushless cars in the past but they don't have enough drag brake to be driven hard in the corners. The lap times just aren't there but still I know that not everyone is as competitive as us but check this vid out and see if brushless is really the way to go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLEUHVlyCYA
(I am the white car in the lead for the first minute and 20 seconds and I was using MRX with 43t pn motor geared 10 tooth with 54 spur).
*edit*
brushless doesn't have to be the only option either, you can still buy the pn brushed board and many regular 03 are still available you just have to get them while they are left. Brushless isn't going to take over until they are proven to have faster lap times and win at a competive level.
Last edited by DMALMAD; 2014.06.19 at 08:40 PM.
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2014.07.14, 06:51 AM
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#22
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 35,480
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brushless will take over when brushed options become increasing less consistent in availability and ease of use. as of right now, Kyosho is only releasing Sports or VE models. there are options from aftermarket such as GoGo and PN PCB boards but this is not something a typical HFAY entry racer would be jumping into. this is going to force our hands sooner than later. i would prefer to see us respond sooner than later given HFAY participation levels recently. some feel we are already behind the curve.
what about programming an RPM limit for VE cars? while the power delivery will always differ from brushed, if we limit the RPM's it may provide a more level playing field. this would leave VE owners some room to tweak the balance of programming options to achieve a consistent and practical power delivery setting to optimize the setup for a 2 wide L layout, which will not tolerate insanely fast motors anyway.
will HFAY allow the AMZ? does HFAY permit GoGo, PN and other aftermarket PCB boards? I have not had to answer that locally yet but would like to have that answer on record, if it isn't already.
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2014.07.16, 09:12 PM
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#23
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Stafford, Va
Posts: 6,064
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I picked up my first brushless car this past weekend. I will say that in my opinion the power delivery with a 6t or 7t pinion felt very much like a 70t motor.
In our testing I was able to match my fast lap for the day with a mostly box stock car.
Mods and body
Ball bearings
K fires 30f 20
458 italia body with +2 front and +2 rear wheels
It was really fast for stock. It felt like a fet upgraded car with a 70t. Lots of usable power. Mine had the blue Eco tune speed motor.
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2014.07.16, 11:56 PM
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#24
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Reading Pa.
Posts: 4,124
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RPM limiting would be an awesome way to level the playing field. Not only that, you could switch it off and have a mod car ready to go!
BUT... getting every manufacturer out there on board with that would be nearly impossible. Now if there was a way to do that safely with some kind of external "rev limiter" that we could solder onto the wires or build into a spec motor, then I think you'd have something!
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2014.07.17, 05:27 AM
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#25
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of both Time and Space
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Posts: 1,892
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The VE ICS manual seems to show a setting (TH Max Rev) that MAY be usable to limit RPMs, but only 3 settings to choose from. Might be worth a try?
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2014.07.17, 12:45 PM
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#26
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Jordan, Utah
Posts: 6,877
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I've never driven a brushless mini-z, and haven't been able to pull the trigger to get one to test yet.
I think we'll have to move that direction in the future. Probably with the next series starting in 2015. we'll need to see what we can find that will be fair to include them in the 70T class. If we have to spec a motor and gearing for the brushless cars that is what we'll have to do.
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2014.07.17, 08:43 PM
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#27
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 336
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You can definitely limit the RPM with ICS. You can also limit the Torque. With a 2 Wide L you can barely go full throttle with a brushless. We should probably consider the Kyosho Eco Tuned motor with a 6 tooth pinion.
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2014.08.01, 09:01 AM
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#28
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Jordan, Utah
Posts: 6,877
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Ray sent me his Brushless car to test, it was a short narrow setup but handled pretty good. I was able to utilize most of the speed with the car, Had a traction rolling issue with the grip level of my track and the narrow car but was still able to push pretty hard. I didn't have a clean race with it because I rolled over quite a bit, but on the HFAY track we ran last night I still did a pretty good job with it. 87 laps and that was with all the traction rolls, fastest lap was a 3.98. I definitely could have pushed it harder if it was in a car with my setup on it. It was geared at 6/44 with the atomic 5000KV I felt the overall speed was just a little slower than my 70T car.
I think we could allow the Atomic 5000KV motor with a gearing of 6/44, 7/44 or 64 pitch 9/54. For the PN 5500KV we would do 6/44 or 64 pitch 9/54 fixed gearing. Basically gearing it between 6-8 gear ratio.
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2014.08.01, 09:45 AM
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#29
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 75
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Biggest spur for gear diff is only 53t so hope we can factor this if it does go ahead in fixed gearing
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2014.08.01, 10:10 AM
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Jordan, Utah
Posts: 6,877
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danjoyy25
Biggest spur for gear diff is only 53t so hope we can factor this if it does go ahead in fixed gearing
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what gear diff you referring to? PN or Stock? I haven't run a stock one for a long time. I thought they were 44 tooth spur. Can someone double check that please.
Last edited by briankstan; 2014.08.01 at 10:13 AM.
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