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Old 2012.01.20, 02:50 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiMiniRc View Post
When I'm at the hobby shops answering questions about Mini-z. My response on brushless and lipo is typically as follows.

1. AAA NIMH batteries give you plenty of run time and AMPS. To me Lipos has always been about run time and current which is ample in AAA Nimh's.

2. By the time you are not at ample battery power (super hot wind motors), the car is un-drivable. This leads into brushless motors. Those have been about efficiency and speed. With high capacity AAA, again, run times are still very good. With AAA you can still put in motors that are un-drivable so needing "more" from a brushless system just doesnít add up.

3. Brushless also has the benefit of no maintenance. Running club cars for 1.5 years, I can say brushed motors this small are nearly zero maintenance. Just a drop of bushing oil now and then.

So yes, the economics and marketing say LIPO capable and brushless are what the customer wants. But I try to explain why the customer wants those (or the hurdles LIPO and Brushless allowed 1/10 electric to overcome) is non-existent in Mini-z from the beginning.
Although I think we're getting a tad off-topic now, I do agree with all of these points. Because of the small size and loads on Mini-Z cars, wear and tear is simply not a significant argument. I've kept an 80t motor for almost two years and a 33t motor for over a year now with only one brush swap each and an occasional dab of oil to keep them running. AAA's are also easier for the "casual" hobbyist to come by, so they're going to stay in Mini-Z's until the consumer standard shifts away from that cell size.

The other thing about brushless is that only the Hall-effect sensored motors tend to be reliable for racing -- and nobody I know makes sensored motors small enough for this scale. Sensorless systems have trouble on startup due to the way they indirectly sense the timing required to turn the motor. This leads to some stuttery starts for the Micro Mamba- and Excelorin-powered RC's I've seen running, and so not a very practical solution unless we want to start marketing Mini-Z's as bashers. Which, I wouldn't mind, but I don't think that's Kyosho's idea of going about it right now.
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Old 2012.01.20, 04:43 PM   #62
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Warrior Chassis ?

What is this warrior chassis? Is this the next secret thing Kyosho said is going to come out. Got any more information?
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Old 2012.01.20, 06:05 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by benmlee View Post
What is this warrior chassis? Is this the next secret thing Kyosho said is going to come out. Got any more information?
Pics from iHobby 2011

Pics from iHobby 2010

First thread
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35264
Any further questions on the warrior should probably go in the thread.
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Old 2012.01.21, 09:35 AM   #64
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When I race other scales of RC there are a number if manufacturers vehicles on the track. The Mini-Z world is hard to compare to other scales because we all use the same cars. There are some classes, like Tamiya and the their mini coopers, that are similar but Kyosho enjoys a unique position.

The cars may not have competition but we do have aftermarket companies working for market share.

On the economics side, shipping costs from Japan have risen. Any guess how many 03 chassis one has to put in a shipping container to fill it? This is just another factor...
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Old 2012.01.21, 08:03 PM   #65
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I think Kyosho has already a "warrior" car. It's called MR-02EX. In Japan it is being sold for around U$160. It is a good car w/ a 2.4GHz Radio. Kyosho America retails it for $242! I know and I've said it before, it would be a killer if it was around $100 bucks. The secret IMHO is Factory Support!

Kyosho needs to step up and help LHS to promote races (Mini-Z CUP), on Stock Classes. Now with so many choices, Mini-Z racer, AWD (drift), F1, NASCAR, Buggy, MotoRacer... it should not be difficult getting people into the Mini-Z World.

Keep it simple and cheap!
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Old 2012.01.23, 12:56 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyoshosan View Post
I think Kyosho has already a "warrior" car. It's called MR-02EX. In Japan it is being sold for around U$160. It is a good car w/ a 2.4GHz Radio. Kyosho America retails it for $242! I know and I've said it before, it would be a killer if it was around $100 bucks. The secret IMHO is Factory Support!

Kyosho needs to step up and help LHS to promote races (Mini-Z CUP), on Stock Classes. Now with so many choices, Mini-Z racer, AWD (drift), F1, NASCAR, Buggy, MotoRacer... it should not be difficult getting people into the Mini-Z World.

Keep it simple and cheap!
A lot of places sell the MR02EX ready set for around $160.00. From what I have heard the Kyosho Cup rules for parts restrictions is ridiculous for mini-z.
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Old 2019.04.03, 01:50 PM   #67
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Are these motor pods and suspension parts not crazy expensive nowadays? Also from other brands like PN.
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Yes, I find them too expensive. Much like the r246 offerings which I felt were 2x as expensive than they should be.

A quick search on Japanese only market sources, the price is roughly half that which is advertised for the global market. Unfortunately, unless you are shipping to a Japanese address or picking up locally, they are priced out of actually being able to be used.

The PN prices are still a bit high, however, are a bargain compared to the kyosho products. Lower volume production has definitely taken effect, and I also assume that tariffs now play a role in producing as well. What used to be $35-45 for a motormount is now $45-55. It is unfortunate, because i feel that this makes the mini-z less cost effective compared to alternative options in the scale. It is hard to recommend a cost effective RWD platform when 2-3x the cost of the platform would need to be spent to get it race worthy in an open upgrade class.

This is why more restricted stock classes are gaining popularity. It is really the only way for newer racers to compete without a huge cost of entry.
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Originally Posted by arch2b View Post
Lets table 1/27 scale economics for other threads . I could go on at length at what i feel contributes to this issue but not really related to new product in this calendar year.

Previous economics thread example, http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showth...ight=Economics
If I'm not wrong unlike most (if not all)past Kyosho after market motor pods the latest two of their motor pod offerings the MMII & the new friction tube versions are being produced in Japan vs by 3Racing for the R246 products which are/were much cheaper. In any case $100 just for the mount and then another $30+ ( guessing) to complete the setup is a crazy number that will hurt the scale anyway you look at it.
Before I ran the numbers for race- track ready car and all equipment "on the car only" ( no tx or off track equipment calculated in cost) & for 1/10 scale TC comes out about $1650, $1250 for a 1/12 scale pan car and $600 for a full option Pn or Kyosho based chassis...still much economical than bigger scales however there are still a lot of 28th scale items with nonsensical spiked up pricing...BL motors are probably the best example...on certain sites these sized BL motors are being sold for $12.50 or even $8.00.
The worst part about a leading manufacturer spiking up their prices is it opens up the door for every other manufacturer below them to raise their price as well, this is true in every scale though not just 28th.

Last edited by mugler; 2019.04.03 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 2019.04.03, 02:56 PM   #68
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This starts with Kyosho positioning themselves as a premium brand and how they price structure to retailer. As a premium brand, they set the pricing min. To retailers that then have to struggle to eek out a profit because market rate pricing falls orders of magnitude lower than their MSRP, which is simply laughable when you see the numbers they suggest you can sell for.
Kyosho listed mini-z unit sales in 2004 i believe at 500,000. Given the drastic reduction weíve seen in production runs post recession, itís safe to assume that those numbers are far lower these days. You loose economy of scale when total production values drop so yes, some price increase is understandable, as is inflation. The cost for brushless motors is just spiteful in my opinion and one of the stubborn reasons i avoid the move to brushless. I realize this is irrational, but I draw the line somewhere and $50 for a motor is just absurd. Forget $80-100 for a pod, just ludicrous. Itís no wonder people are shopping more over seas where domestic market pricing is more reasonable, even after shipping. This simply fulls the cycle of shorting retailers of demand though but your stuck in a vicious cycle. Canít afford keep people out, purchasing over seas hurts domestic retailers. I buy what I can domestically and where it makes sense, go over seas as a matter of necessity to stay active in the hobby. Like most others, there just isnít the spare money there used to be pre-recession and compromises must be made.

Iím not an economist, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn once... Just spent a lot of time in a hobby shop environment, specifically with Mini-Z and understand how badly retailers were treated by Kyosho in the Great Plains days and their continued pricing structure and how it leaves little margin for retailers, if they want to remain price competitive, which is a big problem for the few retailers that remain domestically.
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Old 2019.04.03, 06:34 PM   #69
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While I try my hardest to shop local, I often find it very difficult with the pricing. I do like to purchase items every time I go to a track (maybe I just can't help myself, like a kid in a candy shop). But, without local support, it is hard to have local racing.

When I returned to the hobby, I had to do so with a much smaller budget than I had been used to. I have found myself spending much more than what I had budgeted due to the increase in prices.

The kyosho dominance in the scale is not what it was, however, often the rule structures make it difficult to use the alternative options for anything but modified class racing. The Asian market outside of Japan seems to be dominated by non kyosho based cars, which are considerably cost effective in that market.

I am still a fan of the kyosho based platform, but feel that the approach to racing in this scale has shifted away from the hop up on a base model chassis that it has relied on for many years. The hop up market is more expensive than it has ever been, primarily due to low competition (fewer hop up manufacturers, and smaller production).

While still more cost effective than larger scales, it is now almost twice as expensive to buy a mini-z car and prepare it for racing than it was for a similar level of competitiveness. My current budget limited mindset is always trying to balance cost vs performance gain.

The scale needs growth, the hobby needs growth. When a parent of an interested child sees the cost of an RTR it can be welcoming to the eye, however when they see that 3x the amount needs to be spent to race prep the car for the "stock" class, it can often rule out entry to the scale. For existing hobbyists that participate in larger scales, they may see cost savings associated with the scale, but others will see it as being quite expensive. When parents compare the costs of these cars to a video game system for entertainment, the video game can often win.

This is why I think a strong restricted stock class is important for growth. It gets cars in people's hands and on track. However, I know that experienced mini-z racers always want more. New racers often have interest in how fast they can go, which is often the first question you hear, how to make them faster (as in motor power). While many experienced groups hope to restrict power to level the playing field. This is a double edged sword, as restricted motor classes will just pass the emphasis from motor to battery and other methods to gain a competitive advantage.

As Arch has said so many times, clubs that have been able to establish strong restricted stock classes, which have low costs connected with them face been able to run strong while more speed focused clubs have faded due to consistent costs in development needing to search for the competitive advantage. In my years, I have noticed that with this scale, things can quickly get out of hand without limitations, especially when trying to grow. Unrestricted classes are not friendly to casual racers, but, heavily restricted classes can often leave the experienced racers wanting more.

I feel that the DC group has a good balance between keeping a restricted, inexpensive stock class as their primary class, and running two alternative options for racers looking for more.
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Old 2019.04.03, 09:47 PM   #70
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I agree, existence of Near Box Stock Spec class (NBSS) is essential but I think the trick to maintain the class has not been practiced wherever it has popped up… that would be not advertising or looking at it as a gateway class for only novice drivers but as a true behind the wheel drivers class (vs equipment class) for all skill levels including all the way up to expert/pro drivers.
My idea of NBSS would be RWD with the radio that comes with and allowing any brand Tires / Bearings ( no ceramics though) / T-bars / front springs / lubes & drops / wheel nuts / any DDS system that will fit on the plastic motor pods of any WB on the equipment side and on modification side only allowing soldering or replacing any wires & cutting to reverse the original kingpin. If not mentioned here then not allowed.

Back in 2010 we raced at Kyosho America corporate headquarters and all except one of the stock class drivers participated in a Kyosho box stock class..that ended up being the closest race of the entire event with top 5 in the a-main finishing on the same lap!

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Old 2019.04.03, 11:32 PM   #71
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You more or less described the kyosho stock class that we run. The only difference being that radio is not restricted, and I am not keen on restricting it. ASF cars did not come with a radio, therefore there was no "stock" radio. Implementing a stock radio role would exclude participants who have cars that can conform to the rules.

In no other scale have I seen a radio restriction, and there are some people who simply cannot use one for various reasons. I completely understand the reasoning behind it, and do not disagree with the fundamentals of the rules, but in the big picture, I don't agree. In reflection to the scope of the thread, economics, it makes total sense to restrict radio. Also in the sense of level competition. However, racers with disabilities, or one's who steer with the wrong hand (left) for the stock radio, this places them at a severe disadvantage where they cannot participate.

The most common topic that comes up when I discuss the state of mini-z abs structure for racing amongst my associates, is how to make it more inclusive rather than exclusive which is what many class structures do. Inclusive and inexpensive = more racers and lower cost of entry. For many experienced mini-z racers adding another car to the fleet is not very costly, however, the logistics of bringing another radio when they could already be packing two can be enough of a deterrent to race in the class. I would race if I could use a transmitter that I am already carrying, but bringing another radio should mean that I wouldn't race. I know that my position might be a little unique because I travel to every race via public transportation, so packing dense and light is crucial... others might be more willing to tack on another TX since they can afford the space.
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Old 2019.04.04, 06:29 AM   #72
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For what it’s worth, I would not participate either if it meant packing another radio. I simply do not want to carry around extraneous equipment if i don’t need to as i also pack and travel with my stuff. I think most do outside of those that attend more events and or have 3rd party platforms.

To the economics side of this, the Kyosho Cup rules were VERY strict and naturally, Kyosho brand dependent which makes sense if they are trying to also advertise and generate sales with events. It however makes less sense now than it did 5-10 years ago when Kyosho was for the large part, the only player in the scale. That simply isn’t the case anymore and Kyosho is just one of many retail options at the scale and likely to find themselves on the outside if they continue with strict exclusionary format. Not that a stock GLR/A or BR/Z whatever class would even come close to being cost competitive to a Kyosho chassis. The scale is more than just Kyosho now and the term Mini-Z is more of a scale descriptor than a proprietary product term. A side effect of their own success really.

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Old 2019.04.04, 07:21 PM   #73
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Great point of discussion: Not willing to carry 2 radios. i've struggled with the same & Probably the single most enemy of Box Stock class from taking hold.

At this point Kyosho RWD is the only race grade worthy RTR offering for under $200 including tax radio, Body & wheels.
The Jomurema RTR which the availability of it is no longer certain uses lipo and screws up its homologation for box stock as we've known it to this point.
The cheapest open radio & bare bones EVO + body +radio + wheels combo comes to $560 +tax.
We can all agree Box stock tries to achieve two intentions one being low cost of entry and maintenance and the second being restricted speeds ...unfortuanltely the open radio concept kills that very first purpose of the class at the start.
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