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Old 2008.10.31, 11:20 AM   #1
ProfoxCG
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when to use camber and when to decrease it

can you guys give me some example of when to use camber and when to lets say decrease the amount?

I know thes things for a fact:

camber gives you more stability on long sweepers
more steering (in the case of an MR02)
prevents or help with tracking rollling

The reason I ask is the following, I changed to a softer compound tire on my mr02 and the I realized the steering was very agressive (2 deg) so then I switched it out to the stock (0 deg) knuckle and the steering was much more tamed, however I am debated wheather or not to use 1deg or .5 deg knukles..

In terms of the AWD, I have 1.5deg all around and it seem to turn in just fine, however when would I want to add more camber to either end specially prior changing springs? - is there an order to tuning in general?

Tires > Camber/Toe > Springs (springs only helping with weight transfer)
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Last edited by ProfoxCG; 2008.10.31 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 2008.10.31, 12:39 PM   #2
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Do you glue your tires? If you dont, I would suggest you do. Check ReflexRacing, they have a good tutorial about it.

I feel that the more camber you use, there is less steering response as the contact patch of the tires are less. I usually use more camber when I want to dial out a little steering or the tires are not wearing flat. The track I race at has a lot of high speed sweepers, so I use 2d camber to keep the tires from coneing (wearing more on the outside than inside). I like the response better with 1d, there is a sharper turn in when you have less camber, but the tires do not wear evenly.

I wouldnt say that camber/toe is more important than spring rate. Both are equally important. I start with harder springs, and work my way down when I need to.
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Old 2008.10.31, 01:38 PM   #3
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okay very good post thaks

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Old 2008.10.31, 02:15 PM   #4
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^

ok i fixed it - take that off please
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Old 2008.10.31, 08:53 PM   #5
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Hi there, doesn't camber choice depend on type of track you race on? Example, alot of camber on a very tight technical Mini96, and little camber on long fast tracks with big sweapers? Also, isn't tire wear an indicator of camber useage?
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Old 2008.10.31, 09:09 PM   #6
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Hi ProfoxCG and Gentleman’s,
Camber or driving camber, is the angle of the wheel in reference to the surface when the car is resting. A 0degree camber is when the wheel is perpendicular to the surface where resting, negative camber is when the top of the wheel is leaning inwards and positive camber the top of the wheel is leaning outwards. To measure the camber you must use a camber gauge, in the case of Mini-zs they come predetermined on the knuckles.
Camber affects the cars traction, the more negative camber the more you increase the traction or grip, since the side traction of the wheel increases. The camber should always be adjusted so that the front tires wear flat and the rear tires wear slightly conical toward the inside.
Camber directly affects the ground clearance or ride-height; more negative camber reduces the ground clearance and increases the grip do to the lower CG and roll-center (The roll center is the point about which a vehicle will lean during cornering) are lowered. Because of changes in the suspension geometry “SAS” and decreasing ground clearance they are negative consequences to doing this. You adjust ground clearance by adjusting the suspension preloads, if you increase the preload on a specific corner of the car that corner of the car is lifted and the camber at that corner will become more positive, by reducing the preload of a spring that particular corner of the car will be lowered and camber will become more negative.
Observation: Ground clearance, spring preload and camber relation, only applies to SAS.
Hope that’s clear to understand
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Last edited by eztuner12; 2008.11.01 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 2008.11.01, 08:50 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marc View Post
Hi there, doesn't camber choice depend on type of track you race on? Example, alot of camber on a very tight technical Mini96, and little camber on long fast tracks with big sweapers? Also, isn't tire wear an indicator of camber useage?
I think thats backwards Marc. You want a little more camber on tracks with long fast corners in which you get a bit of roll. The extra camber will keep the tire flat as the chassis rolls to the outside of the corner. The oppposite happens on the smaller tighter trcks. You dont generate enough momentum to get the chassis to roll as far, therefore, you dont need as much camber to get the tire flat on the ground.



Richard - Very good decsricptions of what camber is, and youve covered its effects fairly well. I think your statements are a little too broad though, and would like to add my two pennies


Quote:
Originally Posted by eztuner12 View Post
Camber affects the cars traction, the more negative camber the more you increase the traction or grip, since the side traction of the wheel increases.
This is true to a point, but there is a threshold you want to be in. Too much negative camber begins to eliminate traction. For instance if you were to run 4.5d camber on a car, you may never generate the roll speed to get the tire flat, and therfore you are always just riding the inside of the tire and not the full traction patch. This holds true for the front and the rear. So in a sense at some point more negative camber begins to decrease traction, by keeping the outside of the tire from touching the ground.



Quote:
Originally Posted by eztuner12 View Post
The camber should always be adjusted so that the front tires wear flat and the rear tires wear slightly conical toward the inside.
I set mine so that the rear tires wear flat too. Why would you want the tire wearing in a conical shape? I belive for the most traction, you would want the tire wqearing flat, which means it is running flat through most of the tracks corners.



For my thoughts on camber, I dont really try and tune in and out traction with camber. If I needed a touch less, I may increase it a bit past its threshhold, but for the most part, I do that with tire selection and spring rates. I typically only use camber to get good even tire wear (front and rear). This ensures me that my tires are getting their full contact patch down on the ground for most of the track. T
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Old 2008.11.01, 09:21 AM   #8
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Hi Hrdrvr
Keep in mind that this tires are solid ďno airĒ so you have to true your tires conical to make it flat, an good old normal procedure on road R/C cars, if you donít have a tire truer you must run-in the tires until they became conical, that way they will be flat to the surface and you will take full advantage of the camber effect.
Just throwing a dollar to pick-up $1.02
Hope is clear this time
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Old 2008.11.01, 09:28 AM   #9
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so what would the difference be between truing the front tires with 1degree camber (smaller diameter towards center) or running 1 degree knuckles? and is there an advantage to either one?
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Old 2008.11.01, 09:34 AM   #10
eztuner12
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Hey hrdrvr, about the $1.02 thatís a joke that says, Never bend over to pick-up a penny, throw a Dollar near the penny and then pick-up $1.01
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Old 2008.11.01, 09:43 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MantisMMA View Post
so what would the difference be between truing the front tires with 1degree camber (smaller diameter towards center) or running 1 degree knuckles? and is there an advantage to either one?
Donít quite understand the Q, can you rephrase it?
Thx.
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Old 2008.11.01, 09:57 AM   #12
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i have a hudy tire truer that i can cone true tires with up to 1.5 degrees of angle on them. which in effect is the same as running camber without having cambered knuckles. but i am sure that there are handling differences between the two. i just dont know what they are!! i did this on my lemans car and noticed that with 0 knuckles and 1degree "cone" that the tires are flat on the ground, mainly because of the slop. i only have a Wide L to practice on so i cant really tell the difference.
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Old 2008.11.01, 10:24 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MantisMMA View Post
i have a hudy tire truer that i can cone true tires with up to 1.5 degrees of angle on them. which in effect is the same as running camber without having cambered knuckles. but i am sure that there are handling differences between the two. i just dont know what they are!! i did this on my lemans car and noticed that with 0 knuckles and 1degree "cone" that the tires are flat on the ground, mainly because of the slop. i only have a Wide L to practice on so i cant really tell the difference.
First, you got an excellent truer there.
By truing the tire with camber you will save on having to run-in the tires until they achieve the right angle in which the roll-center effect will distribute the weight to the full face of the tires, If you set negative camber thru the knuckles (new tires, NO SLOP) and place the car on top of a flat surface, you will notice that the outer section of the tires will not be touching the surface, if you true your tire with some camber degree the, hole tire will be touching the surface
When you are turning into a curve at high speed the inertia force will throw the weight on the outer side of the tires (if you are turning right the weight will go to the left) by applying camber this weight will distribute on the full tire surface, providing more traction. Keep in mind “roll-center” (The roll center is the point about which a vehicle will lean during cornering)
Do this answer you Q??
BTW that's a BIG problem with Mini-zs "SLOP" try to reduce it as much as you can
Cheers

Last edited by eztuner12; 2008.11.01 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 2008.11.01, 12:07 PM   #14
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Conical tire wear is only good on nitro on-road cars and it has to do with the lateral grip (side bite) required later on in the long racing stints when the tires start to get really thin on the wheel. This is not to optimize performance.

You don't always have to have your tires flat for it to work at its best, but when they do wear flat you maximize your tire wear. Usually the effect of having extra camber on a car to achieve a certain grip level at the front or the rear can be achieved through the use of toe in, springs, lube and tire compound. So using camber to achieve an effect is really a "band-aid".
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Old 2008.11.01, 02:49 PM   #15
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i understand how camber works, but i am wondering is for instance, is you have 2 identical cars one with 1deg knuckles/flat tires the other with 1degree coned/0degree knuckles, what are the driving characteristics between the two? and is there some sort of mixture between the 3 adjustments (camber,cone and castor) that may be beneficial to the mini-z's. i know on a full size race car camber is not used as a band aid, its used to alter driving characteristics.
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