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Old 2015.05.04, 01:35 AM   #1
quazster
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Rules ban 3D-printed wheels and slot tires? Why? How is this controlled?

Hello, I read through the new rules:

http://pnracing.us/pnwc2015/pnwc-2015-rules.htm

5. All wheel rims must be original made for Mini-Z, any modification is not allowed, any 3D print wheel not allowed.
6. Home make tires and slot car tires not allowed.

What is the logic behind these rules? Why are the changes made? And the biggest question:

How will this be controlled in big races? It is impossible. There are many different types of 3D printers out there and you can easily make wheels that look exactly like machined or injection molded parts. And how will the scrutineers see what rubber is glued on the rim? Some sort of chemistry toolkit with extensive database?

Is this an indication that 3D printed parts will too be banned in the future? 3D printing is the future and this will just slow down the development of the Mini-Z class.

I have talked to various racers around the world and it looks like many are thinking of not going to PNWC races anymore because of reaccuring cases of these sort of rules, including me.

Philip, Grant, do you have an answer for us?
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Old 2015.05.04, 01:57 AM   #2
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I think it is very easy... It is a manufactur series so the are forcing all racers to use PNracing stuff regardless of performance.
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Old 2015.05.04, 02:22 AM   #3
quazster
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I think it is very easy... It is a manufactur series so the are forcing all racers to use PNracing stuff regardless of performance.
So this is just PN admitting that their stuff is not the best out there? If PN tires and wheels would be the best, I guess everybody would be using them. So would the solution instead be to make better products?

My point is if you make rules you have to have means to control this. You can't control this rule change.

If I would to invest the 1000-1500 to the weekend of racing I would wan't to know for sure that everybody is racing under rules that can be controlled.
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Old 2015.05.04, 02:40 AM   #4
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1st off: up to today I recognize a 3D printed part just by the looks of it - especially when compared to an standard off-the-shelve product. Therefore I guess a trained and knowing eye at the technical inspection table can distinguish even better.

2nd: I heard (2nd hand unfortunately) that the main reason is to achieve that everybody has the same parts and no advantage from own developments, which may not be available for others from a private 3D print. For example during the PNEC race 3D printed rims where not allowed, as they had a significantly larger diameter.
So it is not about banning products (3rd party tires were used extensively and are still allowed), but creating equal racing conditions, which is exactly what PN races always have been about (at least for me) and make them so much fun (again: for me).
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Old 2015.05.04, 03:15 AM   #5
quazster
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1st off: up to today I recognize a 3D printed part just by the looks of it - especially when compared to an standard off-the-shelve product. Therefore I guess a trained and knowing eye at the technical inspection table can distinguish even better.

2nd: I heard (2nd hand unfortunately) that the main reason is to achieve that everybody has the same parts and no advantage from own developments, which may not be available for others from a private 3D print. For example during the PNEC race 3D printed rims where not allowed, as they had a significantly larger diameter.
So it is not about banning products (3rd party tires were used extensively and are still allowed), but creating equal racing conditions, which is exactly what PN races always have been about (at least for me) and make them so much fun (again: for me).
1st: I am a mechanical designer by trade and there are many printing technologies and post processing methods out there to make the parts exactly like "off-the-shelve" parts.

2nd: I fully understand the dimensional restraints, but they are easy to control? And you say that 3rd party tires are allowed, well no they are as off the shelf slot tires are now banned? How can this be controlled? How will the tires be categorized between mini-z and slot tires? And you can buy these "slot tires" from vendors around the globe off the shelf. Should be fair to everybody.

If you really want equal playing field regarding tires, there should be controlled tires, handed out at the racing venue, same batch for all, prepared the same way. This is the way it goes in many of the bigger on-road RC classes.

Last edited by quazster; 2015.05.04 at 03:19 AM.
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Old 2015.05.04, 04:20 AM   #6
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Hand-out tires? Count me in!

As for your questions: Slot tires need special rims, otherwise they will not fit. This results in a different diameter. Diameters can easily be measured, at least PN has dedicated products / gauges for this.
Then there are tires made of rubber used in slot car racing, but fitting for Mini-Z rims, such as the ones from Marka. These have been officially used at PNEC. As PN, Kyosho or Atmoic these tires their name on the side walls for recognition.
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Old 2015.05.04, 04:56 AM   #7
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Hand-out tires? Count me in!

As for your questions: Slot tires need special rims, otherwise they will not fit. This results in a different diameter. Diameters can easily be measured, at least PN has dedicated products / gauges for this.
Then there are tires made of rubber used in slot car racing, but fitting for Mini-Z rims, such as the ones from Marka. These have been officially used at PNEC. As PN, Kyosho or Atmoic these tires their name on the side walls for recognition.
You can put slot tires on "regular" rims quite easily:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

You don't need special rims, so you are wrong on this.

If you need to leave the markings visible on the sidewall, how will you ever be able to turn the wheels down then? As the de facto for size in front for 20mm wheel will bee about 21-23mm after truing depending what you are looking for. Also what I normally do is also sand the sidewalls and make a small radii to the outer edge of the tire to get everything nice and straight and aligned.

Also this would necessitate a tire change as the normal wear caused by racing will wear out the markings in usually few sets of batteries.

So your comments don't apply here or otherwise everybody needs totally rethink their setups for using super high sidewalls in front and change the tires immediately after the markings wear out. Would you be ready to change a set of 4 dollar tires after few sets of batteries? And for a fact I know that high sidewall in front causes all sorts of problems for handling especially uncontrolled traction rolls.
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Old 2015.05.04, 06:36 AM   #8
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Thanks for sharing the document. Please look at page 7 for the answer to your question. Slot tires need either preparation or specific rims, Mini-Z specific tires do not. So you can easily distinguish them. No further marks required, e.g. on the sidewall. Although I have to admit: I run my PN front tires trued and you can still see some parts of the PN letters on the sidewall.

Please keep in mind: my posts are my personal point of view and not the official PN one. We have to wait for their response to this topic.
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Old 2015.05.04, 07:04 AM   #9
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Thanks for sharing the document. Please look at page 7 for the answer to your question. Slot tires need either preparation or specific rims, Mini-Z specific tires do not. So you can easily distinguish them. No further marks required, e.g. on the sidewall. Although I have to admit: I run my PN front tires trued and you can still see some parts of the PN letters on the sidewall.

Please keep in mind: my posts are my personal point of view and not the official PN one. We have to wait for their response to this topic.
Yes I know because I'm the other one who wrote the document. You can't easily distinguish them. There is now difference after gluing and truing the tires on the rims to PN/Atomic/Marka/whatever black rubber tires.

I have to take a picture for you and then ask how can you see the difference.
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Old 2015.05.04, 08:28 AM   #10
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To me it just sounds like PN is trying to make it so you buy their products and tires because technically if you can use kyosho tires at the race or pn tires or marka or whatever there is no real difference if using slot car tires as long as they are not silicon. I get the idea of trying to make it a level playing field but then they really would have to just spec the tires. Ane even then the consistency of the PN tires is horrendous, which is why many went to slot car tires or foam tires. I feel like PN does the same thing when they only allow pn motors in the mod class. That is supposed t obe open, don't restrict something just to sell a small amount more. I was kind of hoping that the PNWC would come back to the US but it seems like it is more trouble than it is worth now. Generally I prefer open tire to spec tire but pn has no solid reasoning behind why they are eliminating only one type of tire.
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Old 2015.05.04, 08:33 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by DMALMAD View Post
To me it just sounds like PN is trying to make it so you buy their products and tires because technically if you can use kyosho tires at the race or pn tires or marka or whatever there is no real difference if using slot car tires as long as they are not silicon. I get the idea of trying to make it a level playing field but then they really would have to just spec the tires. Ane even then the consistency of the PN tires is horrendous, which is why many went to slot car tires or foam tires. I feel like PN does the same thing when they only allow pn motors in the mod class. That is supposed t obe open, don't restrict something just to sell a small amount more. I was kind of hoping that the PNWC would come back to the US but it seems like it is more trouble than it is worth now. Generally I prefer open tire to spec tire but pn has no solid reasoning behind why they are eliminating only one type of tire.
This is my point exactly, you wrote it down just as I'm thinking of this.
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Old 2015.05.04, 11:09 AM   #12
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Whats the point in the rule about 3d printed rims? Doesn't make any sense. There are already rules on wheel sizes - and they are easy to inspect in post race inspection.

As for tires, PN tires are totally useless, they even take the enjoyment away from the whole hobby. Simply make better tires, fans would be happy! There's no enjoyment in practicing/racing with subpar tires which are inconsistent and last only one race at full performance.

There's no way you can distinguish between one tire brand and another by looking at them. I also true the outer side of the tire, might also put glue on it - there's no way you'd see any brand markings on it after properly prepping a tire.

Even PN guys run races with proto-parts for crying out loud.
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Old 2015.05.04, 01:36 PM   #13
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not a fan of manufacturer limited rules in general but, this is the PN series. PN sponsored, their time, their money, etc. it's easy to complain when it's someone else dollar and hour so to speak. Kyosho is FAR more restrictive with their home market mini-z cup series.

i understand where the frustration comes from, i get it. at the same time however, what other manufacturer is devoting this kind of effort in maintaining such a far reaching racing series?

PN is not the most restive manufacturer series out there however the options are limited given we do not nor will likely ever have a scale standard. manufacturers have the prerogative to set the rules however they wish just as it is our decision to participate or not.

good point about sponsored driving running prototype parts... hard to suggest this is about maintaining an equilibrium in that regard.
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Old 2015.05.04, 06:21 PM   #14
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At this point, i would be happy if here in the U.S. we would have PN regionals anymore. The biggest crowds and most fun over the years for me , were when we got together for the PN races. Now, in the U.S., there is pretty much nothing....be glad for what you have. Not much effort with other manufactures.

As far as PN tires..over the last year...months, ive had no issues with rears or fronts.
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Old 2015.05.04, 07:38 PM   #15
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For me I have even considered traveling to go to one of the big PN races but honestly they haven't done anything recently in the US and I think that is kind of why racing seems to be dead here. If PN proposed to use spec foam tires I would be all for that and would happily support any race structure they proposed but it seems their perogative is selling their rubber tires overseas. I am happy with my local racing and foam has really brought everything to another level but it seems like for many others racing has kind of stagnated with a lack of progression or innovation.

I think the 3d printing aspect really opens the door for some awesome stuff as can be seen in the incredible chassis JesseT is designing, but if that innovative and intresting stuff is going to be eliminated from racing then the racing experience is kind of cheapened and becomes more like the TCS class of the 10th scale, You limit the innovation and driver setup and customization and the racing becomes kind of like a cheap thrill and not a hobby IMO.

Last edited by DMALMAD; 2015.05.04 at 07:43 PM.
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