2014.01.29, 03:24 PM
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#16
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VE7FM
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Langley, BC
Posts: 629
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Hah, Grant mentioned that traction was up and down at the meet, I bet it followed your running of the Atomic 40 tires. They are banned at my track, well any silicone tire is as they tend to make rubber tires feel pretty slick.
Anyway, I have had both of my AWD cars work with ball diffs in the front, however both were much better with gear diffs. If there are more bumps in the track the difference becomes more obvious. If you like the setup I wouldn't bother changing it. I'll try it out at the next meet, I can compare it to my 90mm/narrow awd.(which I love btw, it is stupid fast)
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2014.01.29, 05:12 PM
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 271
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Yes that's right... over the last year I had in fact switched the tires on all of my cars to Kyosho rubber - my MA-010 was running Kyosho 30* narrow slicks all around and it was a bit too much front grip and traction rolling so just out of curiosity I dug into my box of retired stuff and put the Atomic 40* back on and they worked well. With a slightly wider body I was able to use Kyosho 30* narrow with Kyosho 20* wide, but I wasn't so enamored with that body and would rather use my S15 for casual driving.
For the club's sake though, if you can point me to where I can buy a harder 8.5mm Kyosho slick, I would be happy to do so
Sorry for the derail!
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2014.01.29, 05:33 PM
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#18
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epic procrastinator
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Whistler, B.C.
Posts: 2,216
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I've got a bunch of Kyosho 40s you could have, geoff.
Turns out I forgot an item on my order list for the 020 conversion so I can start build but it won't run for another week or so.
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2014.01.29, 05:49 PM
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#19
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VE7FM
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Langley, BC
Posts: 629
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I noticed that Kyosho has a specific part number - MDW201 for the MA-020 front springs, different then the MR03 part number. I think they may be a little bit shorter but without seeing them it is hard to say. For now I am fine using my MR03 springs.
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2014.01.29, 08:32 PM
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#20
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epic procrastinator
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Whistler, B.C.
Posts: 2,216
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I believe i may have some springs of a similar diameter to MR03 stock springs yet shorter than them. I can't test yet since I goofed on ordering the arms....
Build has started with all the electronics swap and building the rear end...I hope to get plenty of home practice before making a fool of myself at the newton GTG's.
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2014.01.29, 09:21 PM
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#21
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 271
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Thank you for the offer, cowboysir! I think I will indeed take you up on that, and I would be happy to buy you some pizza in exchange. No, that's not code since you always ask...
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2014.02.09, 02:10 PM
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#22
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epic procrastinator
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Whistler, B.C.
Posts: 2,216
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So after a bit of ordering mishap i was able to finally get a test day for my "new" MA020:
1. Install went reasonably well but a word of warning is that the bottom plate can be tweaked somewhat easily...I installed the bottom metal pivot ball upside down on one side and in the process of removing/re-installing I bent one arm a bit and it wouldn't return to original shape. Instead of trying to tweak it back to shape I decided to swap to the "narrow spec" and buy a new bottom plate pack to get a new "wide" plate. I'd say in Kyosho's defense i manhandled the part a bit too much so I'd lay the blame mostly on myself instead of manufacturer
2. I'm overall pleased with the functionality of the front end of the 020. From a bit of an AWD hater i've been waiting for a type of independent front end like this that wasn't $150 worth of floppy alloy or came up with a shock idea that limited the fitment of quite a few body styles onto the AWD.
I was able with a bit of tuning to get my AWD to the same pace as my stock MR03 on a similar sized track. After figuring out where the driving differences are between 03 and 020 (yes I'm that newish to AWD) I could drive it more 'round' sections instead of point and shooting like I used to do with AWD's of previous iterations.
I rate the concept Kyosho has come up with a solid 8.5 out of 10. Besides the bottom plate flex I think a mod to allow a variety of spring fitment on the front will make this platform an excellent first ride or seasoned AWD racer.
I think I will finally be keeping my AWD.
I have quite a few steps to improve my overall spec of the chassis (time to flip back through some RR tutorials on AWD) and I have another round of parts on order due to some friendly suggestions from TheSteve on how to improve the drivetrain.
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2014.02.09, 02:58 PM
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#23
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VE7FM
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Langley, BC
Posts: 629
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The plastic is soft - I am hoping that means it won't break easily, it may tweak though. Anyway it is important to notice the balls only want to snap in from one side and the balls are slightly different one end to the other. I am not sure which way they are supposed to go but I made sure to put mine in both the same way.
btw, when you snap them in put the bottom on a nice flat surface and push them in, there should be no need to deform the plastic at all.
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2014.02.10, 11:01 AM
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#24
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epic procrastinator
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Whistler, B.C.
Posts: 2,216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSteve
The plastic is soft - I am hoping that means it won't break easily, it may tweak though. Anyway it is important to notice the balls only want to snap in from one side and the balls are slightly different one end to the other. I am not sure which way they are supposed to go but I made sure to put mine in both the same way.
btw, when you snap them in put the bottom on a nice flat surface and push them in, there should be no need to deform the plastic at all.
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I came to the conclusion that the pivot ball should go in with the rimmed edge down. It seemed that the edge would catch while attempting to pivot if it was positioned on the top edge.
I followed that procedure for the second install. I'll be ordering a couple batches of lower arm sets to have as spares.
What are your thoughts on the hinge pin clips? I'm definitely worried about losing them....
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2014.02.22, 04:03 PM
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#25
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VE7FM
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Langley, BC
Posts: 629
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I converted my primary AWD (supercar) to the MA020 chassis the other day. I decided to go with the wide config. I don't have any proper Kyosho wide axles so I took 4 regular ones and did some chopping. They are now extended 3mm each using carbon tubes. I am hoping 3racing will make longer steel or alloy ones shortly.
I believe I have the pivot balls with the edge facing up on both of my cars - my theory was that they seemed to have more of an edge for the front knuckles to rest on, and wouldn't hang below the car quite as far.
Going from the MA015 to MA020 front end does mean I can't use my front sway bar anymore, hopefully it won't hurt performance too much. I'd also like to know how long the official Kyosho MA020 front springs are. I am using various MR03 front springs for now and they seem a little long but I generally like my cars to run very low. I'm also pondering how we might add just a little damping to the front end, it is very smooth but also very bouncy.
and yes, those front clips would be easy to lose, guess we shall see if they easily pop off while driving. I'll do some test laps in the coming week to get a baseline for performance.
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2014.02.22, 07:03 PM
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#26
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MINI-Z BODY NUT
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: pa.
Posts: 5,028
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Steve, I have the pivot ball edges down. But ill check that out your way. I had the PN 03 springs in before i got the official Kyosho springs. The size is very close. Damping... i usually just put some Kyosho grease on the toe rods at hub. Helps damping and easy to apply and not as messy.
__________________
MINI-Z BODY NUT
DG DESIGNS - PN RACING - MANTISWORX
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2014.02.22, 07:26 PM
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#27
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epic procrastinator
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Whistler, B.C.
Posts: 2,216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSteve
I believe I have the pivot balls with the edge facing up on both of my cars - my theory was that they seemed to have more of an edge for the front knuckles to rest on, and wouldn't hang below the car quite as far.
Going from the MA015 to MA020 front end does mean I can't use my front sway bar anymore, hopefully it won't hurt performance too much. I'd also like to know how long the official Kyosho MA020 front springs are. I am using various MR03 front springs for now and they seem a little long but I generally like my cars to run very low. I'm also pondering how we might add just a little damping to the front end, it is very smooth but also very bouncy.
and yes, those front clips would be easy to lose, guess we shall see if they easily pop off while driving. I'll do some test laps in the coming week to get a baseline for performance.
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1. I've got a set of the low ride height PN springs for MR03 coming...might give me a bit lower front end without having to preload the spring too much.
2. The only way I can think of damping the front end at this point is a dab of grease/oil on the lower slider. They'll get dirty fast so I'm not keen....the front is bouncy but drivable for me so I think Ill leave it for now.
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2014.02.23, 02:21 AM
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#28
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VE7FM
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Langley, BC
Posts: 629
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I'm definitely sticking with the pivot balls facing up the way I installed them. I am also using the shorter/softer Kyosho branded MR03 springs. Picked up some new front rims today as running the wide front end ruins using all of my Audi R8 rims(shame, they are so pretty, and I have so many). Got some nice black rims though to maintain my tradition of all black wheels.
They also now have a wide rear end config for the DWS, basically you run a longer lower a-arm and longer axles. I am not sure if I see enough potential advantage of the wider rear end though. If anything a super small advantage in stability simply because it moves the hub further out. The wide front I am totally sold on of course, the boost in steering efficiency is what I am after.
I have to say the MA020 in 98mm config one sweet looking chassis, the front and back ends are very low profile now. The middle of the chassis appears a little chunky only because they have the electronics package sitting so far above the motor(for heat related reasons of course)
On a super bumpy track I'd probably always choose the MR03, but for pretty much anything else I just love the AWD car. It really minds me of my 10th scale touring car racing days. It simply attacks any track it is on.
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2014.03.02, 01:00 AM
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#29
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VE7FM
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Langley, BC
Posts: 629
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Did my first test laps with the MA015 converted to a MA020 today. The track I am driving I have done 50000 laps + on with various cars. The MA015 I converted is my favorite Mini-Z by far. The first thing I noticed was that the front end was screaming out for some kind of damping, any kind of damping. I could see the bounce over the bumps, something I didn't have before. I added some grease to the upper ball, the lower pin and the hinge pin itself. It helped a small amount but not much over all. Might help a little more as the grease gets dirty
The new front end has more steering so far, I had to go to a harder tire. I selected a spring rate and ride height similar to my MA015 setup. I will have to try a stiffer spring next test. My old front end did have a sway bar, something no longer compatible with the new front end.
There is no way to limit up travel with the new front end, so with an extreme bump it is possible to have the tire make contact with a low profile body, that is just all kinds of bad. If you rub the sides of the rcp and the body digs in at all the nose really dives and the car tends to go flying.
The "home brew" carbon tube extended front axles held up which was nice.
At the end of the test I was 0.06 seconds slower with the MA020 then my MA015 best time. It was not as controllable or as forgiving either.
It will take quite a bit of effort to get it where my original car was, and if I can't get it where I want it my car will transform back into an MA015
More to come...
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2014.03.02, 07:42 AM
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#30
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epic procrastinator
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Whistler, B.C.
Posts: 2,216
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I had some thoughts about a limiter. I thought about drilling a couple holes in the middle of the spring cup area (dependent on whether you use narrow or wide) and recessing the underside so you could thread a couple screws from underneath and cut them to length to make a travel stop.
Damping will be tricky. I'm not a big fan of having to pull apart the arm/knuckle assembly to clean every three or four runs to clean/redo the grease (which would be needed at Ryan's track).
Keep us updated on your progress.
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