Mini-Z, Kyosho Mini-Z Racer, MR-03, MR-02, MA-010, Forums, News, Pictures, Parts, and Shop - Mini-ZRacer.com
Forums, Mini-Z, MiniZ, Kyosho Mini-Z, Kyosho MiniZ, Kyosho Mini-Z Racer
Mini-Z Hop-Ups, Mini-Z Parts, MiniZ Hop-Ups, MiniZ Parts, Kyosho Mini-Z Hop-Ups, Kyosho Mini-Z Parts, Kyosho MiniZ Hop-Ups, Kyosho MiniZ Parts, Kyosho Mini-Z Racer Hop-Ups, Racer Kyosho Mini-Z Parts
Old 2019.03.12, 04:19 PM   #16
Qball41
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ocala, FL
Posts: 176
Agree with the last two posts.
__________________
Radio Active Racing/ Central Florida Mini Z Racers
Qball41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019.03.12, 06:35 PM   #17
EMU
EMUracing
 
EMU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 7,289
Send a message via AIM to EMU
I agree more with lowering the brushless power to 3500kv than increasing brushed power to 50t. While skilled pilots can often get more out of more power, the average racer is better suited with less power because it is harder to get out of hand. More motor, means bigger crashes as well...

Traditionally, I have favored stock and pro stock classes. Lately, I have been enjoying modified more than I ever had in the past though. Slower motors makes for better racing. The errors are less catastrophic, and therefore people are racing at eachothers doors for much longer, which increases the fun. With modified, it is typically a big crash when it occurs. When I had come back on the RC scene after some time away, I was quite surprised that the HFAY rules had the 5600kv and 70t paired together in the same class. Ideally the 50t or even old ATM 48t has a very similar power level than a 5500kv motor, although, very often once you go above this level of motor, you start losing laps due to inconsistent performance and errors. If you look at many of the big races, only a couple racers even on large tracks have more laps in modified than they do in stock.

The real issue is that when you have cars with a lot of motor on the same track as ones with less motor, you can run into issues on the straight where the fast motor tries to power past the slower motors... and then block through the tighter sections. Even if the average lap times are similar, where the time is made is in two completely different areas on the track.
__________________
EMUracing
Micro RC Syndicate /DG Designs /GSR /Reflex Racing /Fast By Faqish /MurderTown Racing
EMU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019.03.12, 08:10 PM   #18
art4242
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 74
I'm more towards agreeing with mugler from the other thread and keeping the 5600kV limit, and also maybe adding 50T brushed. A 50T PN motor is really close to a 5500kV, we used to allow either as stock at ILR. The 50T bushing can be had for $10 so a cheap easy way for someone with a brushed setup to experiment with without having to go full brushless.

I'm way in the minority, but at least for me the faster motor does provide more challenge in trying to make a clean run on the HFAY sized layouts, I still make a few mistakes over an 8 minute run. From a purely convenience factor, I already have a couple cars setup for 5500kV NiMH which is the stock class at ILR. I'm also trying to entice a few more ILR drivers to join us in HFAY and they would have that setup as well.

I do agree that for those not ready for it the faster motor will make things worse with more crashes, especially on these smaller HFAY layouts. The main issue is selling the notion that a slower motor can ultimately do more laps (I have the same problem convincing my kids )

At ILR the basic gauge of being ready for modified was being able to turn more laps with a mod car than a stock car (5500kV). A large part of this was we had huge tracks, but also a pretty skilled groups of drivers. We used to have the mod racers run a pro stock class as well. But that eventually lost popularity as all of us mod drivers were very closely matched (<.1s in lap time difference on 9-10 second tracks) and whoever had the fastest motor or hottest batteries of the day would be uncatchable which became frustrating.

Ultimately I am totally fine with either 3500kV/70T or 5500kV (and 50T?) being the motor limit, whatever is chosen really won't affect the outcomes either way. It's all about having fun in the end .
art4242 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019.03.13, 05:12 PM   #19
mugler
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 343
Felt the need to drop in and say that by up to 5600 I also meant 50T to be allowed also as already mentioned now by several people it only makes perfect sense if 5600 is allowed...to make it fair for the current season it would be nice if the allowance of 50T was announced now for the remaining rounds until whatever is decided for future seasons.

Another technical point not mentioned so far, allowance of faster motors curbs the need by a good margin the use of fresher batteries to maintain max speeds ...5600/50 motors paired up with half way decent batteries will still be at least as fast as all out brand new fresh batteries in a 3500/70 car.

One of my motivations for continuing to allow the faster motors is since they are generally harder to drive using them is great practice for becoming a better RC driver in general and therefore makes the time spent on the HFAY effort more valuable in that way...here in SoCal with limited mini-z racing I get my general racing fix at 4 on-road local 10th scale tracks and have already experienced that driving with faster mini-z motors directly transfers over to other scales as well.

Having said all of that, i want to double and now triple emphasize that should it be decided to go with 3500 motor only i'd be completely fine with that...the fun expected outcome in the 3500 only scenario is the shrinking gap in number of laps..closer racing = more fun....but the great discussions should continue till organizers make a decision or decide to bring it to a vote.

Last edited by mugler; 2019.03.13 at 05:16 PM.
mugler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019.03.13, 06:31 PM   #20
EMU
EMUracing
 
EMU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 7,289
Send a message via AIM to EMU
I will comment that 50t/5600kv power and speed is my most enjoyable driving experience. Enough power that much of the stock practices to find power and speed are not needed, but hot too much t-bar it isn't approachable by drivers with less experience. Our "stock" class racing at Acton RC many years ago went down to 48t motors on AAA and produced very good racing with less concern about battery and motor draw.

Perhaps a stock and pro stock class could be considered with the current type of motor option.
__________________
EMUracing
Micro RC Syndicate /DG Designs /GSR /Reflex Racing /Fast By Faqish /MurderTown Racing
EMU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019.03.13, 06:34 PM   #21
arch2b
Moderator
 
arch2b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,501
Send a message via AIM to arch2b
we have very different opinions on what 'stock' is
arch2b is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019.03.14, 06:09 AM   #22
Qball41
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ocala, FL
Posts: 176
With our group being so new, "stock" is stock. Literally, take it out of the box, install bearings and tires, and that's it. NOTHING else.

When some of the newer guys see what changes we make on our "pro stock" cars (this is our HFAY class and follows HFAY rules), they just shake their head.
__________________
Radio Active Racing/ Central Florida Mini Z Racers
Qball41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019.03.14, 07:07 PM   #23
mugler
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qball41 View Post
With our group being so new, "stock" is stock. Literally, take it out of the box, install bearings and tires, and that's it. NOTHING else.

When some of the newer guys see what changes we make on our "pro stock" cars (this is our HFAY class and follows HFAY rules), they just shake their head.
The class you’re referring to would be box-stock.

The word "stock" by itself refers to the power level of the motor only and not the chassis, either kyosho silver can (usually MR version only) or any 70T motor and as of late BL 3500 / open gearing / all chassis mods allowed.

The alternative way of running a stock class EMU is referring to came about by some clubs a while after release of 70T aftermarket motors. It was believed there was too much of a power output variation from one to another 70T motor and also new batteries having too big of an impact in the speed equation. Going down to 50T but restricting the gearing to still remain within stock class speeds was seen as a solution to curb battery wars and multi-motor purchases to choose the best one out of the pack. ILR is one of those club’s and when a few of them came down to race with us in 2016 in this race they showed us how it’s done ,LOL but as for the speed & feel (5500,nimh,53/9 spec gearing) almost indistinguishable from an open geared 70T .

Circling back to box-stock..after testing a tru box-stock set up like yours several times (tires & bearings only) the latest with a RWD, I truly believe even for first time RC comers an upgraded T-bar and soft front springs are just as essential as upgraded tires as they make driving the car much easier and more precise by a wide margin and the cost between those 2 items is less than $20. additionally in testing the new MMII mount with it’s damper system and ride height inserts blows the other box stock mounts out of the water. "Near" box stock will make for an easier driving car in most cases.

Last edited by mugler; 2019.03.14 at 07:22 PM.
mugler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019.03.14, 07:36 PM   #24
Qball41
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ocala, FL
Posts: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by mugler View Post

Circling back to box-stock..after testing a tru box-stock set up like yours several times (tires & bearings only) the latest with a RWD, I truly believe even for first time RC comers an upgraded T-bar and soft front springs are just as essential as upgraded tires as they make driving the car much easier and more precise by a wide margin and the cost between those 2 items is less than $20. additionally in testing the new MMII mount with itís damper system and ride height inserts blows the other box stock mounts out of the water. "Near" box stock will make for an easier driving car in most cases.
As someone with a car with some of these modifications, your assessment is completely correct.

Also, as someone who is trying to get new people into the hobby, its not just about the additional $20. That's why we have a box stock class as you call it. When someone starts by buying a readyset, and then they need this, and this, and this, and the other thing, and also this.... it becomes daunting and they are more inclined to say "no thanks". its not the money, but "we" that modify cars don't see it as much. To new people, its a lot to comprehend understand and now how to do.

I know that I am in the minority here, and I accept that. Most people here are intermediate to advanced/expert racers. My opinion though is there needs to be a voice for the new racer. Easy entry to the hobby, encourage participation...

Just like Art says that selling the notion that they can do better with a slower motor is tough, selling the notion to a new racer that they don't need all these parts faster drivers are using it equally tough.

HFAY just may not be the place for new people to participate unless they are comfortable with, and understand they are racing with much better experienced racers.
__________________
Radio Active Racing/ Central Florida Mini Z Racers
Qball41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019.03.14, 08:19 PM   #25
EMU
EMUracing
 
EMU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 7,289
Send a message via AIM to EMU
Quote:
Originally Posted by mugler View Post

The alternative way of running a stock class EMU is referring to came about by some clubs a while after release of 70T aftermarket motors. It was believed there was too much of a power output variation from one to another 70T motor and also new batteries having too big of an impact in the speed equation. Going down to 50T but restricting the gearing to still remain within stock class speeds was seen as a solution to curb battery wars and multi-motor purchases to choose the best one out of the pack. ILR is one of those clubís and when a few of them came down to race with us in 2016 in this race they showed us how itís done ,LOL but as for the speed & feel (5500,nimh,53/9 spec gearing) almost indistinguishable from an open geared 70T.
The "stock" class that I was referencing dated back to about 2005. There were no aftermarket 70t motors. Everyone was racing on AM. The motor limit was what could be run on stock fets. Kyosho x-speed, pn speedy, or atomic stock-bb. As things evolved, and ESC power improved with ASF, the motor limit remained in that class. With the introduction of the 70t, we raced a new class using only narrow track bodies (015 at the time) with 70t motors. This remained the two constant classes and would have regular turnouts of 40+ racers every week.

The equal comparison of 70t AAA and the gear restricted super stock class can be done on large layouts that have high flow, with few slow sections. You are basically riding at the rpm limit for 95% of the lap. On many of the medium technical layouts that we run on this coast, there is more of a difference between these two specced cars due to the increase in acceleration. I had been driving my modified GLR with 3500kv 10/53 for months, and only had to adjust gearing for one of our tracks, since I was only hitting the rev limit near the end of the straight. The car was faster with this heating than if I would have geared up. The same is true for my AAA 5500kv HFAY spec cars. For the most part they were geared 10 or 11t pinion. Whatever I lost on the straight, I gained through the technical infield through better motor feel and response.

For serious veterans, it is nice to have a simple restricted stock class that you don't need to worry about setup as much. Tires and t-plate options are plenty to get the car to handle the way you want. The rest can be adjusted with body choice for weight distribution and handling. Spending less time tuning one car gives more time to tune a different one. However, I feel that when leader experienced drivers see pro level drivers run almost the same pace with an open class stock car compared to a box stock car, it can intimidate them. As it removes some "excuses" that the newer driver can make about equipment, and places that speed differential on their ability instead.
__________________
EMUracing
Micro RC Syndicate /DG Designs /GSR /Reflex Racing /Fast By Faqish /MurderTown Racing
EMU is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019.03.14, 08:50 PM   #26
mugler
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 343
Got it, thanks for clarifying & I stand corrected on certain details of how gear down/power up idea originated specially if it came about independently in different areas...i was giving a general break-down of the different classes for average sized tracks but since this is a HFAY thread good point about how that option would perform on HFAY sized layouts.
In general the more recent reason and the only one as explained to me by drivers in clubs who adopted the gear up / power down route as their stock class is based solely on reasons mentioned.
mugler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019.03.14, 09:22 PM   #27
arch2b
Moderator
 
arch2b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,501
Send a message via AIM to arch2b
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qball41 View Post
...HFAY just may not be the place for new people to participate unless they are comfortable with, and understand they are racing with much better experienced racers.
I believe this explains the resurgence of 'stock' class racing is experiencing. The 2008 recession wiped out a lot of clubs and stores and predominately, they focused on high speed classes. What we are seeing is a resurgence of clubs/stores rebuilding and starting with 'stock' classes as one could argue they should have long ago. The lessons learned aspect may be lost however as they creep back to high speed focus. I learned a lot of lessons in keeping a club going and active for over a dozen years.

In my stewardship of the DC club at Hobby Works, we encouraged new drivers to participate in the stock class to build skill and if they choose to, run the same car in HFAY as we raced only twice a month. HFAY was the next step up so to speak for new drivers as it allowed one to thinker with whatever parts they wanted. I always encouraged the experienced drivers to participate in stock as well as it displays what can be done with a stock car with practice, patience and perseverance as well as fostered community in sharing experience and knowledge.

Having run a club out of a retail location, I can with certainty state that introduction to the scale can defiantly be confusing and yes, can be daunting, in which I'm certain has driven a small number away from joining. Be it choosing the right product with varying frequency bands to contend with, to understanding offsets, wheelbases, narrow/wide, swapping motor configurations, etc. it can be a lot to take in. I always gave new drivers their first set of tires so that they could jump right in.

I am a strong proponent having a stock class and using this to feed into other more advanced classes vs. jumping off with HFAY or faster classes. Speaking from experience, it's very difficult to maintain a stock class as over time 'exceptions to the rules' creep in and can ultimately push you right into HFAY which is a big mistake in my opinion as there should always be a clear distinction. If there is a lack of distinction in classes, they get muddled, diluted and tend to fall apart. Likewise, if there are too many classes, it suffers from not having enough time and or participation to keep them all active. Track size again will always play a large part in determining the optimal motor selections for a club. some clubs have enormous RCP or carpet tracks, some are limited to HFAY or smaller. There is never only one way to do things but must be chosen carefully and tailored to the environment. What works for one doesn't guarantee success for another. The roads taken to get here are all varied, as are the experiences. It's one of the things I like so much about this forum and the people that participate in it. I get to see and learn a lot about things I otherwise wouldn't experience which is refreshing.

Sorry, wandered away from the topic...
arch2b is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2019.03.14, 09:48 PM   #28
EMU
EMUracing
 
EMU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 7,289
Send a message via AIM to EMU
Arch, I couldn't have said it better myself. The tracks that focused only on the fast classes, or class, have little space for newcomers to hone their skills. A highly restricted class is the best place to learn how to drive in this scale. You don't have the hopup of the week to mix things up, and the only real gotta have it part is the tire. After that, it is just track time, which when you cannot change much on the car, the track time becomes a larger percentage of time spent at the track.

For newer racers, it is easy to lose the setup when you have so many variables at play. Remove the variables, and introduce them slowly (fron moving up from a box stock class to a 70t or hfay class) and the racers can see the difference that each part makes, and the adjustments that can be done with it. When a new racer jumps in, and gets all of the parts recommended for an open 70t class car, if there is a problem with the setup, they have no clue where to start looking.

At the same point, a sportsman or entry level class is good for these newcomers to race without pressure of the fast guys driving circles around them, which can be humiliating at the same time. Larger groups have the ability to split between school levels with the same class restrictions, however smaller groups may only have a couple fast guys with most in the intermediate level and there new guy here and there do it's difficult to split. I have mostly stopped racing kyosho stock except when I race with the remnant crew.

Brooklyn tried to start a box stock class, but it didn't take. Everyone just jumped in to an open 70t/3500kv class and couldn't get enough of the hop ups. It would have been a great class to have the ability to get new racers on track with minimal expenditure and have them gain the most important thing, track time and driving experience.

I have recently converted my brushless kyosho stock car to a super stock class car for the PN race, and probably won't revert it back to K stock after. At this point, I have 4x 3500kv AAA mini-z cars, but only two are capable in racing in the PN rule set, and one will be run for stock, the other super stock.

I think while we have wandered from the topic, it is great discussion...
__________________
EMUracing
Micro RC Syndicate /DG Designs /GSR /Reflex Racing /Fast By Faqish /MurderTown Racing

Last edited by EMU; 2019.03.14 at 09:56 PM.
EMU is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
HFAY spec motors ukyo How Fast Are You? Online Points Series 16 2015.01.04 08:53 AM
New Atomic "17mm" Round-Motor-Can Mini-Z motor Felix2010 Atomic 67 2011.06.14 11:09 AM
HFAY 70-turn Season 6 Spec Motor Tests schmenzer How Fast Are You? Online Points Series 27 2009.03.09 01:49 PM
PN HFAY Motors - First Impresions! Neomax Mini-Z Racer MR-02 10 2008.07.03 08:16 AM
HFAY OLPS Ann Arbor Videos hobbycar How Fast Are You? Online Points Series 16 2007.11.03 08:02 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2011 Mini-ZRacer.com
Mini Inferno Sale - Up to $85 Instant Savings!
Micro-T Hop-Ups
RC18R, M18, Micro RS4, Mini-LST, TamTech-Gear, Minizilla, RC18T, RC18B, RC18MT
shop.tinyrc.com Products

more»
Tiny RC Community News
[03/22/17] MZR was on vacation, didn't... : All kidding aside, the host experienced a bit of a server meltdown last week and efforts to restore the site to a new server took longer than anticipated. The current server is temporary until - more»
[11/25/15] Did You Hear? Our Black... : Hey Racers,
We're getting started a bit early with our Black Friday sale this year.  Generally we're not supporters of retailers opening early on Thanksgiving, but in our case, we're - more»
[06/30/15] shop.tinyrc.com: Have You... : Hey All! Just a quick reminder to everyone that we post all of our shop.tinyrc.com Newletters here on the MZR Forum. If for some reason you miss them in your email inbox, you can always see the - more»
Mini-Z, Mini-Z Racer, MR-02, MA-010
M18, M18T, RC18T, Mini-LST, Mini-T, Micro RS4, XRay, 1/18, 18th scale
XMODS, XMOD, Micro Flight, ZipZaps, ZipZaps SE, Bit Char-G, MicroSizers, TTTT, Plantraco Desktop Rover, SuperSlicks, Digi Q
Mini Inferno, Mini Inferno ST, half EIGHT, 1/16, 16th scale
Epoch, Indoor Racer, 1/43, 43rd scale
E-Savage, eSavage, eZilla, e-Zilla, HPI
Robots, Bots, Bipeds, Wheeled, Manoi, Roomba, NXT, Lego, Hacking
Crawling, Crawlers, Micro, RC, Losi Mini-Rock Crawler, Duratrax Cliff Climber
Kyosho Minium, Caliber 120, Minium Forums
Mini-Z Hop-Ups, Mini-Z Parts, Mini Inferno Hop-Ups, Mini Inferno Parts, M18 Hop-Ups, M18 Parts