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Old 2017.01.04, 08:50 PM   #16
briankstan
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Chris, in regard to running the two cars. That was to test where the brushless compared with the 70t and In essence is what lead to the brushless being included in HFAY and what motors were legal. if you would like we could use you as a comparison running your other car. To keep it consistent I would prefer you run both cars in the series in spereate heats as long as you club is ok with you doing so.

My Brushless was faster but the speed does change the handling especially on the smaller track. On the HFAY sized tracks I can run a faster lap bit it's less consist and in turn I don't remember ever surpassing my brushed car with the brushless in overall lap count.
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Old 2017.01.04, 09:38 PM   #17
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Brian you're a stand up guy I was really expecting a bit of backlash...back to the topic...

I'm 100% sure arch2b and a few others will let me run an aftermarket chassis. In fact I should be receiving my BZ I won in a contest next week. I'll use that and my AMZ. We can capture and share the data and setups so we can establish a baseline.

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Originally Posted by briankstan View Post
Chris, in regard to running the two cars. That was to test where the brushless compared with the 70t and In essence is what lead to the brushless being included in HFAY and what motors were legal. if you would like we could use you as a comparison running your other car. To keep it consistent I would prefer you run both cars in the series in spereate heats as long as you club is ok with you doing so.

My Brushless was faster but the speed does change the handling especially on the smaller track. On the HFAY sized tracks I can run a faster lap bit it's less consist and in turn I don't remember ever surpassing my brushed car with the brushless in overall lap count.
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Old 2017.01.04, 11:24 PM   #18
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You should really keep awd and 2wd separate. In a competitive environment the 4wd beats out the 2wd almost every time. It isn't always faster hot lap wise but the consistency is waaaay better. When I was running with the awd vs 2wd chassis (BZ v.s. MRX w/ A-arm) I knew it was an advantage and it was not even close how much easier to drive the 4wd was.

That said, not all chasiss are equal. X-power 4wd (either version) is just plain garbage. I haven't tried the GLA but it certainly seems fast and consistent to me from the little I have seen of it being run.

I also think that in a 4wd class there doesn't need to be a motor limit. Unlike 2wd, you can get away with running a hotter motor even if you don't have the skills since the car is just naturally easier to drive. So just let what everyone can handle run and the best driver will win. It is pretty simple.

Lastly there is the issue of tires. On 4wd you can get away with some creative tire setups to find more speed because the chassis is more forgiving and you have toe and camber to play with on the rear along with a lot less weight. So I would never recommend spec tire... Buuuuut I would say try and keep the tires to like one manufacture or one specific version (ie PN KS only or Marka V1 or V5 or V6 or whatever only). I think trying to run 4wd on only kyosho tires would be really interesting. Not the fastest combo but certainly the easiest to get going without worrying about glue and flipping.
I just want to clarify and point out that there is a lot of theorizing and presumptions being made about AWD...

It is the most difficult chassis to setup. The BZ is leaps and bounds better than the standard Ma-whatever, the amz, the x-power, and the jury is still out about the GLA but I would say that the GLA and BZ are fairly equal.

The steering response is the same as the fully optioned X-power that everyone seems to hate. You can crank it like crazy and not worry about flipping if you get the setup right... IF. RH, preload, camber, toe, tires, WEIGHT DIST, and a lot of other factors are all playing into the handling and each impacts the car differently and just more than the 2wd. So clear advantage goes to the AWD even on tight layouts because I got my 4wd to turn like a 2wd while pulling out of the corners like a 4wd should. Takes a lot of time and most people won't get their cars even to be able to stay on all fours let alone be dialed so just let them run what they want in a lipo open class... but keep 4wd and 2wd Separate since there is a CLEAR advantage.

edit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSOGtUC7Ia0&t=342s

Just an example (one of my better drives dark green car is BZ and I put I think 3+ laps on 2nd place. All the rest were MRX lipo mod and it was a mixture of tight and twisty with some speedy sections).

Also I just want to say this was just my experience with 4wd. Car is easy to drive and handles better but as with everything it takes a driver and a setup to get things right. Obviously I can't speak for HFAY tracks but an advantage is an advantage and I would suggest for structured competition to keep a level playing field. I know there are other factors so this is just my opinion and experience I am not trying to negate anything anyone else has experienced or points they have made.
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Old 2017.01.05, 07:10 AM   #19
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I personally can appreciate the enthusiasm for AWD but your making references and inferences based vastly different programs, Maj is not HFAY by a long shot (not disparaging Maj's program at all, just pointing out they are entirely different programs). HFAY's long history and a large database of results show AWD is indeed slower in HFAY and FAR less popular (for whatever reasons those may be). It demonstrates in my personal opinion, that AWD is clearly not the fastest platform for HFAY. If it were, after 22 seasons you would see an increase in their use, not a decrease. Thus, no need to separate AWD from 2WD as the demonstrated performance gap is irrelevant at HFAY scale. This is backed by 22 seasons of results. The entirety of the topic is oriented to HFAY, not various racing programs such as the incredibly fast and competitive program at Maj's, PN worlds, etc. where the logic and data do not necessarily translate due to program differences. The track size in this case levels the playing field or is the equalizer.
Nice video btw Having a announcer makes such a big difference in the feel and enjoyment of an event or just racing in general.
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Old 2017.01.05, 07:59 AM   #20
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I personally can appreciate the enthusiasm for AWD but your making references and inferences based vastly different programs, Maj is not HFAY by a long shot (not disparaging Maj's program at all, just pointing out they are entirely different programs). HFAY's long history and a large database of results show AWD is indeed slower in HFAY and FAR less popular (for whatever reasons those may be). It demonstrates in my personal opinion, that AWD is clearly not the fastest platform for HFAY. If it were, after 22 seasons you would see an increase in their use, not a decrease. Thus, no need to separate AWD from 2WD as the demonstrated performance gap is irrelevant at HFAY scale. This is backed by 22 seasons of results. The entirety of the topic is oriented to HFAY, not various racing programs such as the incredibly fast and competitive program at Maj's, PN worlds, etc. where the logic and data do not necessarily translate due to program differences. The track size in this case levels the playing field or is the equalizer.
Nice video btw Having a announcer makes such a big difference in the feel and enjoyment of an event or just racing in general.
You are right they are two completely different settings (Maj's and HFAY) and therefore different platforms work better than others. I just wanted to point out to people that the 4wd platform deserves a full chance since, in particular, the BZ is just so easy to drive. I don't think any 4wd mini-z before the BZ was even worth the effort to drive on a weekly basis but now I think it is worth it. Sorry if I came off as a little zealous, I tend to do that sometimes when it really isn't necessary
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Old 2017.01.05, 11:40 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by byebye View Post
Brian you're a stand up guy I was really expecting a bit of backlash...back to the topic...

I'm 100% sure arch2b and a few others will let me run an aftermarket chassis. In fact I should be receiving my BZ I won in a contest next week. I'll use that and my AMZ. We can capture and share the data and setups so we can establish a baseline.

Kris
If i recall, we ran a couple drivers with brushed/brushless in that season for bench marking/validating as well it may not have been clear with all that the results were being entered for recording. I don't recall this happening in subsequent seasons.

i'm happy to allow whatever is needed for further testing, etc. Just need to know how to format the results so it's clear what is what.
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Old 2017.01.05, 12:30 PM   #22
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I can enter the option of Atomic BZ under the chassis configuration, that way it will be easy to see. I'd also like to know what the motor is so I can make that available as well if it's different than what we currently allow. then times can just be submitted as normal and it'll be easy to see.
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Old 2017.01.05, 05:38 PM   #23
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I can enter the option of Atomic BZ under the chassis configuration, that way it will be easy to see. I'd also like to know what the motor is so I can make that available as well if it's different than what we currently allow. then times can just be submitted as normal and it'll be easy to see.
BZ uses all the standard mini-z brushless motors except kyosho ones. Generally people run a 5000kv on a big to medium size track and I usually run 7500kv tuned down with the speedo (otherwise it is way to fast to handle). I think someone tried it with the pn 3500kv but I don't know how that worked out because just getting the gearing right on the BZ was a pain in the you know what
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Old 2017.01.05, 07:36 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by briankstan View Post
I can enter the option of Atomic BZ under the chassis configuration, that way it will be easy to see. I'd also like to know what the motor is so I can make that available as well if it's different than what we currently allow. then times can just be submitted as normal and it'll be easy to see.
So far every Atomic car has come standard with a 5000kv motor which is also what I use in my HFAY MR-03
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Old 2017.01.05, 07:37 PM   #25
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Are there any others that are interested in running for data?
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Old 2017.01.06, 07:06 AM   #26
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i'm happy to drive a car for data logging, if provided. I just don't have any of them myself.
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Old 2017.01.06, 09:15 AM   #27
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You know some people like to keep classes basic. And new technologies coming. And you may consider to change the rules for some classes. Only for modify. Stock classes are little bit different.
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Old 2017.01.06, 09:27 AM   #28
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So far every Atomic car has come standard with a 5000kv motor which is also what I use in my HFAY MR-03
I ha e that motor already in there. So it just needs to be labeled as "Atomic 5000KV"

Also when you get the BZ, can you weigh it complete with battery and body, might need to add weight to meet the minimum weight.

I'll see if Ben wants to run his BZ as well in this upcoming season as a benchmark as well.
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Old 2017.01.06, 09:38 AM   #29
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Also, are you going to test with a an ASC Body or with a lexan body.
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Old 2017.01.06, 11:23 AM   #30
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You know some people like to keep classes basic. And new technologies coming. And you may consider to change the rules for some classes. Only for modify. Stock classes are little bit different.
HFAY has one class only, far from what is generally considered a stock class. For BTE it adds in MOD class, which may need to be altered to incorporate 3rd party/3d printed kits.
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