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Old 2017.03.21, 09:18 AM   #1
cowboysir
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"Racing" league parity in Newton

So now that interest has risen for racing again at the Newton club we should discuss how we cam level the playing field between our mixes of cars performance.

This is solely to get a comparison level of equality between "stock" class cars.

Thoughts to consider:

1. Motor and esc. Specs...which motors should be "stock" and do we stay with non modified fet levels on kyosho boards?

2. Minimum weights and fixed gear ratio...I've seen this as PNWC regulations and wonder if adopting this would be feasible?

3. Specific tires/batteries: it might be over the top but I'm including this to ask if we need to go this far? I'm certainly not in favor of this since even having the same battery the prep can make a difference between racers but I thought discussing might be needed.

This should make a good start for discussions about stock class.

As for "Open " class I think we can be completely free with builds as long as you stay at 4.8v

Finally when it comes to race day I think having a driver's meeting before practice and heats should be required...some discussion on racer etiquette should be hashed out so a common understanding goes through the group

Let's get a chance to come to a consensus so we can create a great racing league.
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Old 2017.03.25, 12:35 PM   #2
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Thumbs up

Be prepared for a better portion of tomorrows GTG to be just conversations about exactly what Derek posted & more.

Do we want to also start a points series with this new change? Maybe make it quarterly or due to the amount of these that will be done in the year, semi-annually? IE: Season enders in June & December? Or shall we just go with one large change at a time? Get the classes & races figured out & locked down & then start up with points?

I will bring my laptop with me so that we can document everything we are talking about & potentially use it to lookup what others are also doing & gather additional info. I suggest that if you have any information that you want to bring along, website data, posts etc that you email me that information or put it onto a USB Thumb Drive & bring it with you.

I know a bunch of us have different chassis setups & I'm not sure what classes people are interested in, do we want to go with something like, 2WD Stock/Mod, 4WDStock/Mod, 90MM (HM?), F1 ?

I look forward to us hashing some things out tomorrow. I will post up what we work out here in this thread within the next few days to allow continued conversions about it. I'm hoping we can get to a point that we can run some races tomorrow & by the next Racing League GTG we have things worked out well enough to have a full blown racing GTG.

Hope to see y'all out at the track tomorrow!
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Old 2017.03.26, 03:58 PM   #3
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Exclamation

Here's a link to a quick & dirty overview of what we are thinking of for our Racing League Series. Look it over & feel free to comment! It's a work in progress but for our next Racing League GTG we will be trying to stick to it. Questions? Just ask!
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Old 2017.03.29, 02:36 AM   #4
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Hi boys, sorry for missing the last GTG, really wanted to be there to discuss a few things for the future. Here it goes my 50 cent on the subject:

1- Stock classes look fabulous, the thing I would change would be to have the lower stock class only using brushed motors, but Ryan told me there is only a couple of people using them and I'm one, so fair enough... I won't be upgrading mine since I just spent a lot in a brushless mod car, my first and only.

2- Talking about mod car, the mod class seams a bit too loose for me, allowing a generic 'any' will get for sure into the prototype foam tire AMZ, BMZ, pan car lexan land which I'm not interested in getting into. We could have a levelled mod class and we won't, and my mod car just became a useless brick

3- We're preparing a racing day where we spend 4h open track and less than 1 hour actually racing if we have cars for every class. It can go as little as 13 minutes if we're running just 1 car. I honestly think we could go the other way around, 4h racing and 1h tuning. Make it 3 qualifiers instead of 1, make it triple A mains instead of 1. Every race that I've attended before coming to Vancouver it's open track for 1h, then it's track closed and heat after heat so you have some pressure in trying to make small adjustments to cut a tenth on that time, and then a nice set of A mains or direct qualifiers and a B main with bump up for the A. Do we have enough people to do this, of course we do, to race you only need 2, just make it a bit more challenging. What's all the practice time in Langley for... to practice right? So let's race

4- Formula 1 class... we need a pit stop to change batteries, there's no F1 without strategy, let's make it interesting, let's make it unpredictable, let the driver choose the right moment to get in and change the mandatory batteries, let's make it longer so we feel a bit more tired like the real ones, F1 is not a sprint, it's a high tech strategic short endurance. F1 brushless? That doesnt even exist in the market...are we accommodating for a single car that someone is building (have no idea) that will have an edge over all the others? We have the opportunity to level, let's keep it simple, brushed 50T for everybody until an F1 brushless is available on the market...

5- Did you guys talk about conduct and race behaviour? Having someone announcing the race to help the drivers to know whats happening around them?
A bit on the terms Dereck did in Whistler a proper race director that can guide and be responsible for the race. We could even rotate that role if people want.

Again, you guys agreed on this, so I might be alone in this one, I just think we have the opportunity to create something interesting and I think we're going a bit too shy racing wise.
Though I have this ideas, I really appreciate you guys seating around the table to discuss them, my respect! I'll adapt to whatever is offered on the day.

I left the most important news for last so at least you could read my ideas, I've recently discovered that my wife is expecting a baby, our first child, and we're gonna go back home for 6 months to be around the family and then come back
to Vancouver. So from August to March next year I will be missing all the meetings. At the same time, I'm launching my own online training company and I'll be soon teaching every Sunday, so Mini-Z will be off for a long while.
I don't want to believe this is going to be a goodbye, but for sure it will be challenging to see you guys regularly.

Hugs,
Carlos
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Old 2017.03.29, 09:17 AM   #5
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1. Stock brushless for the acceptable motors is just me atm but after comparing pace there was other people interested the possibility.

2. The reality of the club is most members (that you haven't met) aren't interested in designing a car to fit a rigid standard to race. With that in mind we felt that since the track size is the limiting factor to pace we felt that those members who dint have a stock class car can "race" here. As an aside during discussions we felt there wasn't much interest in the BZ type of chassis but if there did wind up with a couple we'd likely have a "1/27TC" category

(For example we ran stock and mod together and my stock car fastest was 0.2sec behind and on the same lap as the 2nd and 3rd place finishers)

3. The amount of open time again is about giving all members time on track. Not every member is like me (multiple cars) so some members participating might only be in one class. I think we could try multiple qualifications but getting time for everyone to participate will be a balancing act.

4. I have a brushless F1 and there is a new 3d print chassis that improves F1 by a huge step. I have other classic f1 so I can conform if needed.

That being said finding time for everyone is a balance. The more time we use for a longer F1 race with "pit stops" is time taken away from the days already tight agenda.

5. We did have a brief discussion about etiquette but felt that would be best to reviewed each race event during a driver's meeting.

I think your wish for racing is admirable as its something I've wanted to try ever since I joined the group years ago. Finding a balance between our level of interest in racing while keeping other members involved will be a balancing act.
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Old 2017.03.29, 11:07 AM   #6
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Nicely worded, I think you described exactly the reality of the club. I thought we were not doing stuff because lack of oportunity but it's actually a matter of majority choice now, so let me remove from the table all the ideas, please ignore my previous post. It's more important to have a solid group for sure.
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Old 2017.03.29, 01:03 PM   #7
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It is only now that we can all see just how bad Carlos wants more people racing - he is creating new racers.

Carlos, a sincere congratulations to you and your wife!

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Old 2017.03.29, 01:03 PM   #8
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please excuse my interjection here but may i make a suggestion based on our clubs experience with creating multiple classes while balancing engaging and maintaining involvement...

whatever your base class ends up being (there is no standard for stock class for example), allow this to be run in all others, excluding F1 for obvious reasons. This allows those with a base minimum to continue to compete in additional classes with no further costs or hassles. yes, they will be slower. if your track layout is similar to ours, 2-3 wide L, then the track itself is an equalizer in which case many times a lesser standard car and and may win depending on driver skill. it happens in our club on a regular basis.

we also race in a single day and it's impossible to really get more than 3 classes done with heats/mains when you factor in practice, the inevitable wait for peaking cells, fixing something, taping or gluing tires, etc. Of course we are averaging 8-14 drivers so if you at 4-8 your schedule will shorten dramatically. we've generally abandoned running 3 classes and stick to two and simply swap in a class now and then as interest peaks or demands. our 3 basic classes are stock, 86-90mm and MOD and occasionally entertain 94mm and F1.

as much as others may disagree, our MOD class allows for whatever one has the balls to put on the track (tire rules still apply). in almost all instances, in the hands of the average driver, lipo and or awd have not proven to be enough to provide a clear advantage to win as the track layout in itself is an equalizer. for example, of our clubs 3 top drivers, only one is running lipo/awd with the rest being brushed ASF mr-02/03. Once the track size starts getting to 3 tile lanes, 3+ wide L in size the more powerful machines begin to take over. many have commented over the years on the need to separate awd from 2wd however with smaller tracks, countless years of data (HFAY) show it's simply un-necessary.

tricky pickle with F1. kyosho has confirmed it will no longer be in production. we are now left to support F1 on our own meaning once parts dry up, your left with 3rd party and why not just adapt now vs. delay the inevitable.

for inclusion of brushed and VE, there are current ongoing venue's that have addressed this in their own ways and recommend looking at these for feasibility of incorporating into your programs. with brushed kits limited to sports series (in production) your simply not going to see real growth with brushed. We are starting to see this shift now in our club after resisting VE for years and only now investigating how to best incorporate into our program. I would hate to see others go through this given the VE expansion into the scale and it's inevitable dominance. you can fight it or make it work. we fought it for years and simply finding ourselves HAVING to make it work in order to enable/foster continued growth.

please feel free to delete if unwanted interjection, dismiss, etc. but our club started in similar ways and has found it's footing after going through similar process. we still remain a 'club' vs. a store and operates as a club of individuals brought together for common purpose; fun competition and comradery. we all have very distinct taste, style, preferences, etc. but an agreeable common ground.
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Old 2017.03.29, 01:52 PM   #9
cowboysir
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Carlos,

I don't think taking your suggestions off the table is the plan in as much as its about incorporating them into a scenario that works into all the club members interest levels. I'm sure we'll find a balance.

Raymond,

Your suggestions are certainly valid and appreciated. Our only concern with slower cars being in heats with mod class cars was the inevitable "disparate speed crashes"....nothing like getting run up the bumper to ruin the flow of your event.

It may very turn into 2 class racing for autoscale specific chassis....time will tell how planning stays true to the track event.
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Old 2017.03.29, 04:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSteve View Post
It is only now that we can all see just how bad Carlos wants more people racing - he is creating new racers.

Carlos, a sincere congratulations to you and your wife!
This made me smile. Indeed, a HUGE congrats to Carlos & your partner. How very exciting

I'm at work right now so I can't reply in depth, but I think Carlos, Arch and Derek all have some excellent points and I'm sure we can integrate many of the suggestions.

In general, life has taught be that if you want to bring about change, and more importantly, make the change stick, things have to be done incrementally, and you have to start slowly to get people used to the new norm. From my experience as a runner, it's all to easy to come out of the gates at a blistering pace and with a ton of enthusiasm, and then run out of steam before you even hit the halfway marker. Experienced runners know it's better to start slower, work your way up to a steady pace, and then maintain it. I think the same will go for racing....start slow, start small, and as people gain experience and get more into it, we can gradually pick up the pace and intensity.
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Old 2017.03.29, 11:15 PM   #11
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ahahahha, it's true, if you can't find racers...just multiply! thank you, very exciting times ahead for sure, I still don't know if it comes with instruction manual, but for sure it's the latest model
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Old 2017.03.30, 07:17 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboysir View Post
...Raymond,
Your suggestions are certainly valid and appreciated. Our only concern with slower cars being in heats with mod class cars was the inevitable "disparate speed crashes"....nothing like getting run up the bumper to ruin the flow of your event. ...
this an be mitigated by thoughtfully organizing heats to allow qualifying to run smoother and mains will sort themselves 98% of the time. This is why our club formats qualifying to promote consistency vs. hyping fastest lap.
there is no avoiding the possibility of a slower car getting plowed by a faster car however the resulting experience over time will allow both to better manage and drive around each other vs. through each other. as T'sq'd mentioned, it's a process over time. the continued growth in experience of all will make it easier for the group as a whole to improve. it's a process that has to support all, from the bottom up. when the bottom raises the bar, it pushes the those above to be even better and ultimately reduce the gap between the bottom and top. I am myself, an example of this process bearing fruit as once was 'king of D Main' and now find myself as the pauper of B Main there will be times in which cars get smashed, it simply happens and really, it comes with the territory when putting a 6" plastic RC on a track in any configuration. it still stings when it happens but it becomes a less frequent issue over time and have to break through that wall. no one likes being taken out of a race due to breakage but in competitive racing, it's a possibility that one must accept, just as any competitive racing does in real life. $hit happens as they say. everyone handles it differently, some more graceful than others. that response, as club culture can change as well.
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Old 2017.03.31, 07:24 AM   #13
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Very odd... Even though I'm subscribed to this thread I didn't get a single email saying there were any updates in it.

Gladi8or (Carlos) - Please do NOT feel that you need to retract your post. You should never feel that your voice wasn't at least heard. It was, believe me! I totally feel your passion, NEVER lose it! I just don't think our little club is where you want it to be, yet! This isn't our first try at this. But, most of all, with your patience & help, along with all of the other members that are interested in this portion of the club, we can make a go at this! I think baby steps are in order though. Just hang in there, let's throw some kindling on these embers & spark up a fire! It may not happen overnight, but with enough fanning of the flames we can get this fire roaring!
I'm not going to reply to the points in your post as I believe you know my stance & you see that of some of the others too. We had a great GTG last weekend, & I'm hoping the next one will be just as good! We poured a foundation & now it's time to build on it. What's with all of these darn metaphors!? I hope you can make it out to one or two of our race days. I'll do what I can to fit them into your busy schedule.

Congrats on the Mini-Me BTW! Hardest thing your EVER going to do!
I'm not the worlds best Father, but if ya got questions, ask away. Unless it's a boy, I apparently know nothing about baby boys!


arch2b - Thank you so much for chiming in! We can always use the wisdom of someone that has gone through what we are trying to start. It will take us a bit to get into our own, but with the support of the community & our club members we will give this the best shot it's got!


All - Keep on posting your ideas, no matter how ridiculous they are! I myself am an idea man. Heck, I KNOW how horrible some of them are. 1 out of 10, okay, maybe 1 out of 20 of my ideas are feasable and most of the others are WAY out in left field. But, without ideas & feedback, we wouldn't get anywhere. On behalf of the BC Mini-Z Club, I appreciate everyone's posts.
Keep um coming!

Cheers!

-Ryan
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