2009.03.23, 08:01 AM
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#61
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MBMZR
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC
Posts: 3,274
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As far as the subject of motors, I think stock motors should be factory sealed. Accessing the comm for maintennace and brushes for break-in is one thing, but opening up the motor can to add thicker wire is a lttle ridiculous to let happen, and how then do you control wether its still 70t or not? I think if policing is the only reason, this should be ritten in.
Id dont really like the idea of running bodies at other wheelbases than what they are meant for. It takes the "scale" out of the performance for me. Its becoming the norm now though, so I have learned to accept it, allthough, I dont do it much myself. The more I think about it though, the more we open it up to wheelbase changes, the more I think we should let 102 be a part of stock as well. The FXX, fits well over 102mm wheelbase, as does the new Mcl GTR (which performs great at 102 BTW), so should be limit people from taking it up to 102, but allow them to take them down to 94?
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Landon
LET's Go Racing!
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2009.03.23, 08:27 AM
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#62
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Curmudgeon & Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kannapolis, NC
Posts: 2,549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yasuji
but how to enforce this.......
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Enforcement would not be difficult. In as much as racers will always find a way, all that is necessary would be to collect all stock motors at the beginning of competition and have everybody draw one with the stipulation that if you draw your own or a team members you draw again. Not being able to use a motor you so lovingly created takes the edge off the time involved to do it. After all qualifiers are finished the motors are again impounded and you draw again for the mains.
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2009.03.23, 10:37 AM
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#63
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Goodrich MI
Posts: 6,164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mleemor60
Enforcement would not be difficult. In as much as racers will always find a way, all that is necessary would be to collect all stock motors at the beginning of competition and have everybody draw one with the stipulation that if you draw your own or a team members you draw again. Not being able to use a motor you so lovingly created takes the edge off the time involved to do it. After all qualifiers are finished the motors are again impounded and you draw again for the mains.
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So cheaters are present, and bring a motor that they will NOT be using is the solution... OK, I see the 3 2 1 Go.. and no cars leave the line because everyone super glued the shaft in their motors lol...
As for cost control:
If the goal is to keep cost down in the stock class... then set a price value that you want racers to spend on their cars ball park, and make it mandatory that if you offer that much to buy a racers car, then they have to sell it for that much. This works in those full scale junk car races. Manufacturers will also have to keep prices down, since no one will enter/buy a $500 chassis if the sale price is $200...
Last edited by Draconious; 2009.03.23 at 10:44 AM.
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2009.03.23, 01:12 PM
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#64
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PN RacingTEAM Driver
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: southern calfornia
Posts: 1,530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draconious
So cheaters are present, and bring a motor that they will NOT be using is the solution... OK, I see the 3 2 1 Go.. and no cars leave the line because everyone super glued the shaft in their motors lol...
As for cost control:
If the goal is to keep cost down in the stock class... then set a price value that you want racers to spend on their cars ball park, and make it mandatory that if you offer that much to buy a racers car, then they have to sell it for that much. This works in those full scale junk car races. Manufacturers will also have to keep prices down, since no one will enter/buy a $500 chassis if the sale price is $200...
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it had been brought to my attention over the weekend that the need to keep the cost down is very important esp. in the stock classes
so i will add to the stk class rules....NO PROTOTYPE PARTS !
IF IT IS NOT AVAILABLE TO THE PUBLIC IT IS NOT ELIGIBLE TO BE RACED IN 2WD/4WD STOCK 70 T CLASS this includes motors ,chassis suspension,wheels, tires and/or any other components
and will be checked upon pre/post race inspection
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2009.03.23, 01:19 PM
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#65
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PN RacingTEAM Driver
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: southern calfornia
Posts: 1,530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mleemor60
Enforcement would not be difficult. In as much as racers will always find a way, all that is necessary would be to collect all stock motors at the beginning of competition and have everybody draw one with the stipulation that if you draw your own or a team members you draw again. Not being able to use a motor you so lovingly created takes the edge off the time involved to do it. After all qualifiers are finished the motors are again impounded and you draw again for the mains.
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this is not a problem as of rt now.....only pn makes a 70 t motor good for racing....but when other companys enter 70 t motors in to the class ,it will not work so well as some drivers will be contracted to run a specific brand of motor.....
i would hope that all drivers can be honest and build cars within the spirit of the rules
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2009.03.23, 01:54 PM
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#66
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PN RacingTEAM Driver
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: southern calfornia
Posts: 1,530
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Updated rules
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2009.03.23, 03:35 PM
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#67
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Trenton,NJ
Posts: 559
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how do you enforce motors? well factory sealed and with ball bearings is a good start
as for body trimming, yes inside to reduce weight but wheel base should not be altered and as for reflex products which are good should be mfg for the wheel bases available from the manufact. the idea here is to KEEP THE COST DOWN
its nice to have options but the more options you have the less amount of people in any class,i seen this type of stuff happen over the years and i even stopped for 7 years until i saw how cheap mini-z racing was,again just my opinion but i have the experience
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an eye for an eye will make the whole world blind
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2009.03.23, 04:25 PM
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#68
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Thom Rocketman Belmont
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Lake Sam Rayburn
Posts: 131
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Yasuji, I believe that cost containment is vital but you lose innovation. Let me play devils advocate. I understand the spirit in which you propose the no prototype rules, but now you will need to define prototype along with a definition of what a manufacturer is. I believe it is too difficult to enforce that at nearly any level. What is available retail is too difficult to enforce. Is a battery a component of the car because if you consider it such then that rule would not allow a new battery to come to market and be used in the stock class at level 3 or above events while it was being tested and developed. Take the new R1 750UHO as an example. You could easily extend that to other items more closely associated with components of a car.
Motor pools are good for club levels. I had Cam motors manufacture 20 motors for a IROC type series back in the day and they were great, but when we dyno'd them they were all close but there were valuable differences that made a difference in gearing and run time that was significant enough to cause a few problems.
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2009.03.23, 06:48 PM
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#69
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PN RacingTEAM Driver
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: southern calfornia
Posts: 1,530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketman
Yasuji, I believe that cost containment is vital but you lose innovation. Let me play devils advocate. I understand the spirit in which you propose the no prototype rules, but now you will need to define prototype along with a definition of what a manufacturer is. I believe it is too difficult to enforce that at nearly any level. What is available retail is too difficult to enforce. Is a battery a component of the car because if you consider it such then that rule would not allow a new battery to come to market and be used in the stock class at level 3 or above events while it was being tested and developed. Take the new R1 750UHO as an example. You could easily extend that to other items more closely associated with components of a car.
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proto types will be allowed in the pancar stk class.....open pancar class is where most protos will be tested
in the spirit of the sedan stk class it should only consist of products that are readily available to all competitors
as for your refrence to batteries....r1 990s were prototyped by most of us here in so cal....i did alot of testing personally however...i only race mod
now the difference here in these rules will be that in 2wd/4wd sedan stk 70t it will make it fair for everyone......
there will still be a test bed for manufactures in the pancar class
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2009.03.23, 07:05 PM
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#70
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,840
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yasuji
proto types will be allowed in the pancar stk class.....open pancar class is where most protos will be tested
in the spirit of the sedan stk class it should only consist of products that are readily available to all competitors
as for your refrence to batteries....r1 990s were prototyped by most of us here in so cal....i did alot of testing personally however...i only race mod
now the difference here in these rules will be that in 2wd/4wd sedan stk 70t it will make it fair for everyone......
there will still be a test bed for manufactures in the pancar class
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Only on Pan Cars??? Should be tested on mod cars (kyosho body) only, not stock. Pan cars...
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2009.03.23, 07:31 PM
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#71
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,683
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I still think there should be a weight limit. The same for both AWD and 2WD, but making part is a part of the majority of racing categories, either full scale or model scales. It is just a part of complying with rules. How hard is it to add may be at most 2 grams of lead tape to your car. Not having a weight limit really leads down a bad road of lightening and more brittle parts. It is not good for the industry in general and it makes racing worse. This is a rule that is so simple to comply with , that I honestly don't understand why people have a problem with it, it evens different chassis out and makes racing MUCH more competitive.
If you guys don't want weight rules, I can forsee a 150 gram, ready to run car in the near future, effectively making the K chassis unsuitable for racing.
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2009.03.23, 07:43 PM
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#72
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PN RacingTEAM Driver
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: southern calfornia
Posts: 1,530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjay
Only on Pan Cars??? Should be tested on mod cars (kyosho body) only, not stock. Pan cars...
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there will not be a 2wd mod class... only a 4wd mod class(you can test 4wd proto parts here).....
so if you need to test any proto parts on a 70t chassis ,i have left that open for usage in the open pancar 70 t class(you can test 2wd /4wd parts on a 70t car here as well as mod 2wd/4wd)
Last edited by yasuji; 2009.03.23 at 08:04 PM.
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2009.03.23, 08:08 PM
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#73
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PN RacingTEAM Driver
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: southern calfornia
Posts: 1,530
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aside from that.....if the part is good you will produce it and put it on the market ....thus making it eligible to be used in the sedan class
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2009.03.23, 11:33 PM
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#74
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Thom Rocketman Belmont
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Lake Sam Rayburn
Posts: 131
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I have reviewed CT point and I support it completely. He changed my mind.
As far as my battery issue I was thinking about the 750uho batteries that are designed for stock. When they were prototypes they would not have been allowed. If I wish to build a one off car to compete in awd stock that is graphite and magnesium and I spend my time designing it, milling its parts, etc. you will say I can't race it in stock, although that is what it was intended for. I read the majority of the ROAR rule book and found no rules in any class that precludes advancements in stock classes. How you define a manufacturer is going to be difficult if not impossible to police and how you define readily available at retail is just as difficult. I would love to have a awd vehicle sitting in my shop to work on and run on my track but one is not readily available in retail in 2.4ghz and this is from THE manufacturer. It has been out at anyplace I can look for for several weeks. So on this issue I disagree strongly with your concept. It seems to me in the past, many moons ago, that this came up with ROAR and they were sued by the manufacturer from excluding their products.
Yasuji, you have done a great job moving us along and look at the input, people are getting excited and hopefully next year will be the year of Formula 28. Thanks for letting me run my mouth a little cause it means a lot to me to see this succeed at the level I know it can.
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Thom "The Rocketman" Belmont
Belmont Racing Team - BRT
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2009.03.24, 01:12 AM
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#75
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GF Racing
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Metro NYC
Posts: 2,959
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Here is a basic scenerio....
stock (very basic car with a hand out motor that gets no prep utilizing hand out batteries as well)
mod (hop ups from any manufacturer and a motor and batteries than can be prepped )
unlimited (anything goes)
What is the purpose of stock class??? For beginners??? For cost controlled racing??? For diehards who want to race and win every class???
What is the purpose of mod class??? For intermediate to expert racers???
Racers who like to make some mods??? Most racers fit this class...
What is the purpose of unlimited??? For expert racers who have deep pockets
who have skills at fabricating/tuning??? This is the class that seperates the men from boys...
The paradox I see is when the really good driver decides to run in a lesser class. Then is that racer using the lesser technology???
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GF Racing Team Driver
Dream Killr Racing.....Live the Dream
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
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