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Old 2019.03.04, 12:52 AM   #121
art4242
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Interesting discussion on the motor limits.

Previously our club (ILR) had some pretty large tracks, in which top end speed made a large difference in lap times. Even then, once we switched to mainly lithium for modified, we found that there was an upper limit to how much power was controllable. The 9500kV+lithium combo was just too much, all of switched back to 7500kV or 6800kV motors, and still turned down the highpoint some on top of that.

This is my first time running a small HFAY size layout, and from my very short experience it feels like motor and top end power is much less important on this smaller track. For comparison, I just ran a 3500kV NiMH car on the Feb layout today and lap times were only about 0.1s slower than my 5500kV times. I also tried a 6800kV lithium mod car, which I had to turn way down, even then I only matched or slightly exceeded the 5500kV time (<.1s) and was much harder to drive consistently. So there's probably a limit to how much more motor really helps regardless of skill level, and more important to match motor to driver skill level to churn out consistent laps without crashing.

As Binh from ILR always says "slow is fast". I had to teach my kids this when they first started driving, I turned down their throttles a lot and over time as they learned to keep off the walls gradually increased their speed.

As far as CCW - it was tough enough getting my kids to do 2 rounds of qual/practice and then a single main, they were spent and didn't want to try CCW at all We're used to 4 minute races usually and the 8 minutes felt like an enduro.

Last edited by art4242; 2019.03.04 at 03:41 AM.
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Old 2019.03.04, 10:21 AM   #122
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The times are posted and very impressive. Great to see so many folks turning out. 45 entries for Clockwise. Awesome to see so many in the century club. 100 laps + is very difficult. There are a lot of things that have to go right to get there. Congratulations to everyone. Great turnout, and great results.

We'll be updating the Community Standings section somehow to show based on entries and points. Just for fun... right.

Thanks Blaine for the awesome software.

Here's to another great month ahead.
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Old 2019.03.04, 02:24 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briankstan View Post
feel free to run the time trials. I have all the data and if you want to send in times on the tracks. We can at least store them until we have the site fixed/replaced and rebuild the data.
Hi Brian,

So I ran a time trial on track 8 (February layout) over the weekend with my 5250kV NiMH car (Racer class). My best time was 3:08.572.

Not sure how this compares with previous times as the HFAY site doesn't seem to show any time trials for track 8 right now

Here's a video of the time trial, it looks like I managed to keep off the rails for the entire run:

https://youtu.be/zV9QVh9Dy1k
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Old 2019.03.04, 02:57 PM   #124
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edit: Fantastic video, great driving /\

Congrats to club OLR drivers for a stellar performance ! That run must have looked more like a slot car race than RC car racing, LOL.

Regarding CCW we run the entire months program of open practice, our own qualis and the two mains in a 5 hour window of time and we feel that’s adequate time to get used to both directions to run as fast as we were going to…the CCW is like running on a 2nd entirely other layout, thus the attraction. (Two is better than 1 )

I’d be up for revising motor rules to limit it at 3500 should it come to that as there are valid merits running a single class using a single power limit vs a power range like now however I guess for this season like in the past 5600 is the limit.
So far i’ve only used 3500 originally thinking even that would be too much juice but after a couple of rounds of running & now OLR’s runs and Art’s feedback all reveal 5600 is still within the limits of HFAY layouts as far as being manageable to be driven consistently over an 8 minute period of time which as long as allowed makes for a spicier top 10 competition.

Reason Kyosho 5600 EVO sales was brought up is because its the only currently “produced” ready to run Brushless option which is eligible to run under HFAY’s current rules & interestingly looks like the 5600 version has already sold out at K-America as of 10 days ago.

Last edited by mugler; 2019.03.04 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 2019.03.04, 05:39 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mugler View Post
edit: Fantastic video, great driving /\

Congrats to club OLR drivers for a stellar performance ! That run must have looked more like a slot car race than RC car racing, LOL.

Regarding CCW we run the entire months program of open practice, our own qualis and the two mains in a 5 hour window of time and we feel that’s adequate time to get used to both directions to run as fast as we were going to…the CCW is like running on a 2nd entirely other layout, thus the attraction. (Two is better than 1 )

I’d be up for revising motor rules to limit it at 3500 should it come to that as there are valid merits running a single class using a single power limit vs a power range like now however I guess for this season like in the past 5600 is the limit.
So far i’ve only used 3500 originally thinking even that would be too much juice but after a couple of rounds of running & now OLR’s runs and Art’s feedback all reveal 5600 is still within the limits of HFAY layouts as far as being manageable to be driven consistently over an 8 minute period of time which as long as allowed makes for a spicier top 10 competition.

Reason Kyosho 5600 EVO sales was brought up is because its the only currently “produced” ready to run Brushless option which is eligible to run under HFAY’s current rules & interestingly looks like the 5600 version has already sold out at K-America as of 10 days ago.

Thanks, my kids had fun even though they were dragged into it. I will solicit some other ILR racers to see if they can join us in the coming months. Attached is our heat sheet from the main. Again our times must be skewed due to the brand new RCP, traction was crazy.

Here's a video of a solo practice run, had a few bobbles in this one and ended up at 125 laps:

https://youtu.be/qgZtaeEfJxU

I wish I had video of our actual main, it was pretty comical, LOL . Since there were only 3 of us we had to turn marshal for ourselves, which led to some scrambling around the track a few times and shifting where we were standing. My 12-year old daughter did amazingly well, only about a tenth slower then me, if not for a few unlucky rollovers she would have been pretty close to me.

We're open to whatever motor rules everyone agrees on. Keeping the 5600kV limit seems to make sense as beyond that there's probably minimal if any gain in overall lap times on these layouts.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf HFAY 2019 Feb CW Final OLR.pdf (32.4 KB, 14 views)
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Old 2019.03.05, 06:22 AM   #126
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Very impressive Arthur, you and your kids.
It's funny that kids today don't enjoy running mini-z as much as I think I would have when I was a kid. My oldest son is 10 and I have to talk him into practicing with us. I think you would have had to drag me away from the track when I was a kid, but maybe that is just my skewed memory of how much I loved anything rc.

As far as motors go, could we include a brushed equivalent to the 5600kv brushless limit. Maybe a 48t or 50t? Or maybe we could have a stock class with 70t and 3500kv limit and a super stock class with the 48t and 5600kv limit.
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Old 2019.03.05, 06:46 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mugler View Post
edit: Fantastic video, great driving /\

Congrats to club OLR drivers for a stellar performance ! That run must have looked more like a slot car race than RC car racing, LOL.

Regarding CCW we run the entire months program of open practice, our own qualis and the two mains in a 5 hour window of time and we feel that’s adequate time to get used to both directions to run as fast as we were going to…the CCW is like running on a 2nd entirely other layout, thus the attraction. (Two is better than 1 )

I’d be up for revising motor rules to limit it at 3500 should it come to that as there are valid merits running a single class using a single power limit vs a power range like now however I guess for this season like in the past 5600 is the limit.
So far i’ve only used 3500 originally thinking even that would be too much juice but after a couple of rounds of running & now OLR’s runs and Art’s feedback all reveal 5600 is still within the limits of HFAY layouts as far as being manageable to be driven consistently over an 8 minute period of time which as long as allowed makes for a spicier top 10 competition.

Reason Kyosho 5600 EVO sales was brought up is because its the only currently “produced” ready to run Brushless option which is eligible to run under HFAY’s current rules & interestingly looks like the 5600 version has already sold out at K-America as of 10 days ago.
I kinda want to clarify the EVO. The EVO is not a ready to run, nor is it even in the same market as the ready to run cars. Someone who is buying the EVO, receiver, radio to go with that receiver, body, wheels and tires is likely not shying away from a $50 motor. There are budget HFAY builds, but the EVO is not one in my opinion.

I guess my viewpoint is that the PN70T brushed motor seems to be the baseline. The 3500 brushless seems to be comparable. If the 5600 usable performance exceeds the performance of those 2 motors, then maybe it should be looked at.

One of the reasons i love Mini Z racing, especially in the box stock form, is that the cars are so equal out of the box. We're probably on the strict side of rules, where we require stock radio, spec tires (Kyosho 30 fr, 20 rr), and all you can change is body, wheels, tplate, springs, bearings and the 4th servo gear. Its amazing how close and fun racing can be when you aren't chasing setups, tire choice, custom made parts, etc.

That fast lap of 3.2 is incredible and a full second faster then our fastest fast lap. We are gonna need a lot of track time to get our speeds and consistencies even in the ballpark. I have been setting up the HFAY layout on the weekends in the garage but it takes both sides. I gave up on that, put up a layout that fits one side (so i can park on the other) but can now practice more. For all of the discussion about motor, the real difference is driving skill for the majority of us.
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Old 2019.03.05, 11:41 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orcadigital View Post
...I guess my viewpoint is that the PN70T brushed motor seems to be the baseline. The 3500 brushless seems to be comparable. If the 5600 usable performance exceeds the performance of those 2 motors, then maybe it should be looked at...
This is the point I failed to make as clear as you have. The 5000-5600 is not where an equivalent to 70T however it was the best choice of none at the time it was made and doesn’t mean it’s sacrosanct. Just food for thought really, Brian is the driver for the rules, I’m just a long time listener so to speak, past participant . Eager to get back to HFAY though so trying to keep abreast of the developments. I have 24 seasons of experience with it so can offer insight into developments along the way over the past dozen years.
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Old 2019.03.05, 06:01 PM   #129
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This is the point I failed to make as clear as you have. The 5000-5600 is not where an equivalent to 70T however it was the best choice of none at the time it was made and doesn’t mean it’s sacrosanct. Just food for thought really, Brian is the driver for the rules, I’m just a long time listener so to speak, past participant . Eager to get back to HFAY though so trying to keep abreast of the developments. I have 24 seasons of experience with it so can offer insight into developments along the way over the past dozen years.
the last set of published rules allowed the PN5500 or equivalent as at the time that was the lowest standard KV that was readily available. I would say with the offerings today that they should be looked at and maybe dis-allowed for the future and limited to the 3500 KV motors.

the intent was to allow the Brushless cars a place to compete, but the overall goal was to keep the speeds more stock'ish. We knew that in the hands of a very talented driver that with the extra speed could throw the whole mix off. Evidence showed that most people with the over powered car would actually be slower than their stock motored cars.

with all the different options in todays market, even with all the different ESC and motors it really hard to have a level field without getting very specific with the rules.

Always willing to discuss this in an open forum and get everyone's opinions.
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Old 2019.03.05, 06:10 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by art4242 View Post
Hi Brian,

So I ran a time trial on track 8 (February layout) over the weekend with my 5250kV NiMH car (Racer class). My best time was 3:08.572.

Not sure how this compares with previous times as the HFAY site doesn't seem to show any time trials for track 8 right now

Here's a video of the time trial, it looks like I managed to keep off the rails for the entire run:

https://youtu.be/zV9QVh9Dy1k
very nice run. there weren't any times for lots of those tracks because our club was the main one that ran the time trials. most of the tracks that don't show times don't fit in our race space. that's also why we aren't competing this season as only 1 of the tracks fit. We'll shoot for next season.

I look forward to seeing what you can do on some of the tracks that you can compare times to. specifically 1,2,3,4,6,18, some of the others only have times from our club.
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Old 2019.03.05, 06:56 PM   #131
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PN 2.5 chassis, autoscale bodies, and lexan wing ?'s

From Scot in Florida for Brian:

> Ty,
>
> I'm looking for a clarification on some of the HFAY rules. These have been brought up by members of our group.
>
> Three things:
>
> 1) are the PN 2.5 chassis allowed in HFAY? They are not listed in the allowed chassis in the rules.
>
> 2) It says you need to run auto scale bodies. What modifications are allowed? Some that we have seen have removed interior details and appears the cars have been lightened in other ways.
>
> 3) Are lexan and other aftermarket rear wings allowed? If so, what is the difference between lexan wings and "big wings"?
>
> Thanks for any guidance you can give.
>
> Scot
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Old 2019.03.05, 07:55 PM   #132
art4242
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Originally Posted by Orcadigital View Post
I kinda want to clarify the EVO. The EVO is not a ready to run, nor is it even in the same market as the ready to run cars. Someone who is buying the EVO, receiver, radio to go with that receiver, body, wheels and tires is likely not shying away from a $50 motor. There are budget HFAY builds, but the EVO is not one in my opinion.

I guess my viewpoint is that the PN70T brushed motor seems to be the baseline. The 3500 brushless seems to be comparable. If the 5600 usable performance exceeds the performance of those 2 motors, then maybe it should be looked at.

One of the reasons i love Mini Z racing, especially in the box stock form, is that the cars are so equal out of the box. We're probably on the strict side of rules, where we require stock radio, spec tires (Kyosho 30 fr, 20 rr), and all you can change is body, wheels, tplate, springs, bearings and the 4th servo gear. Its amazing how close and fun racing can be when you aren't chasing setups, tire choice, custom made parts, etc.

That fast lap of 3.2 is incredible and a full second faster then our fastest fast lap. We are gonna need a lot of track time to get our speeds and consistencies even in the ballpark. I have been setting up the HFAY layout on the weekends in the garage but it takes both sides. I gave up on that, put up a layout that fits one side (so i can park on the other) but can now practice more. For all of the discussion about motor, the real difference is driving skill for the majority of us.
Completely agree, EVO is nowhere close to stock. We've been racing weekly for years so have built us a serious collection. I did start off in the beginning with a mostly stock MR-03, and slowly progressed with various upgrades over time as my driving improved with practice.

I had the same problem with the track layout in the garage and parking as well. What worked well for me was to just detach the track in half down the middle, and put sections of 4-6 tiles still attached together flipped over (racing surface touching racing surface) on top of the other side of the layout. When I wanted to practice just move the car out, flip the sections back and reattach. Takes me <5 minutes, much faster than ripping the entire track apart.

Our fast times were only really 3.7's, not 3.2. We're probably gaining a tenth or so because our tiles are new/traction is high, and another tenth or so from our faster motors, and are cars are pretty decked out with double-A arms and PN chassis. So 4.2s is really pretty close and some good times with a nearly stock car. More important than fast laps are consistency and being able to stay off the walls to clock in the max number of laps, which just comes with lots of practice .
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Old 2019.03.05, 08:26 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TyGminiz View Post
From Scot in Florida for Brian:

> Ty,
>
> I'm looking for a clarification on some of the HFAY rules. These have been brought up by members of our group.
>
> Three things:
>
> 1) are the PN 2.5 chassis allowed in HFAY? They are not listed in the allowed chassis in the rules.
>
> 2) It says you need to run auto scale bodies. What modifications are allowed? Some that we have seen have removed interior details and appears the cars have been lightened in other ways.
>
> 3) Are lexan and other aftermarket rear wings allowed? If so, what is the difference between lexan wings and "big wings"?
>
> Thanks for any guidance you can give.
>
> Scot
1. yes the PN 2.5 chassis is allowed.

2. Autocale bodies is basically limiting it to a hard plastic body.
No Lexan bodies allowed.
Lexan windows are permitted but need to be installed covering all windows like the kit piece.
Lexan windows that you remove the plastic roof and replace with lexan are not allowed.
You cannot cutout the hoods and back of the car.
you can narrow or round the front bumper splitter so it won't grab or get stuck in the rails. I'm ok with a little grinding for wheel clearances etc.

3. I'm ok with most of the lexan and 3d printed wings I have seen. as long as they are scale to the car they are fine. The PN folding lexan wing is fine. anything bigger should be considered not legal. use you best judgement, if it looks suspect feel free to post a pic and I'll review.

also consider the car must meet the minimum weight of 170grams as well.
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Old 2019.03.05, 08:31 PM   #134
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Thank you for the guidance. This will help is know what is and isn't allowed.
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Old 2019.03.05, 08:35 PM   #135
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Thank you for the guidance. This will help is know what is and isn't allowed.
if you have any other questions feel free to ask.
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