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Old 2009.12.09, 12:00 AM   #1
yasuji
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Stability?....toe in or toe out?

OK....i have had this discution with quite a few people.... and what i feel is opposite to some others.....heres the senerio...
i run a "0" toe bar on mt mr02 with pnracing front end....and for any front end i have had thru the years....as you all know the pn front end will toe out ( \ _ / )
with a zero bar i like that as i feel it gives me better stability and control going down the stratght away an less twithchy initial turning!if i use a +0.5 ( | _ | ) or a+1.0 ( / _ \ ) bar i cant get down the stratghtaway with out "ping ponging" down the straight and it gives me overly twitchy steering and on throttle push.....now many have said that toe in = stability....but in my case this is not!
may be it is my radio setting...and or my drive style?????
I NEED TO KNOW
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Old 2009.12.09, 07:21 AM   #2
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^ I think it may have to do with driving style, but it also heavily depends on the rest of the set up IMO. Ive been through this debate before, as I think it could go either way.

In theory (and popular belief) the front wheels of a toed in car will pull in towards each other helping the car to track straight while on power. The toed out car would have the wheels pulling against each other, making it twitchy, but giving better response on initial turn in.

On the other side of it, I believe the outside wheel gets loaded a lot more on these cars on high speed cornering. If you got toe out, this would make mid corner less aggressive, as the outside wheel wouldnt be turned in as mush as the inside. Toe in on the other hand would have the outside wheels placed in a more aggressive manner at mid corner, giving it more steering through and out of the corner.

FWIW, I like running 0 toe everywhere. My A-Arm car is the only one with toe out, and with all the bump steer, Ive still go toe in on cornering, lol.
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Old 2009.12.09, 07:28 AM   #3
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I've under stood that toe out is for stability, and toe in would be a more twitchy setup, especially when running a larger track, but good on a tight short track.
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Old 2009.12.09, 08:12 AM   #4
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If you look at any race setup books: toe-in equals stability, toe-out better turn-in.

Toe-in should also give you more on power steering and toe-out more off-power steering.
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Old 2009.12.09, 08:45 AM   #5
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funny thing is....i can remember way back to when i first started driving rc cars.....(mini-z 3 years ago) i had this same discussion with my buddy james....
and i would prefer the -1 toe bar (aluminum)over the zero(aluminum)....for the stability!
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Old 2009.12.09, 09:30 AM   #6
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I agree, I'm all about the toe-out. I love agressive turn-in and off-power steering. Guess that is from my 1/10 days as well. It's also how I learnt to drive (1/10 was my first scale).

It's all about driving style and setting up your car to do what it needs to. Your setup rocks for you and you're the star winning the race, but when someone else drives the same winning car, it sucks for them and their laptimes suffer. It's just the way it is.

On a related note, I find it funny in that everyone (including me) always wants the top driver's setups, i.e. Christian, etc... to try out. Fact is the best person to setup your car is you. You can learn from someone else' setup either in that you take what you need or know what you don't like or doesn't work for you.
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Old 2009.12.09, 09:33 AM   #7
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Where the confusion arises is with the use of the words 'negative' and 'positive' toe rather than toe-in and toe-out.

When using toe-in and toe-out, it is easy to visualize the wheels' attitude, and the effect it will have on the car's suspension. Assuming the car is moving toward the top of my post:

Toe-in -----> /---\

Toe-out----> \---/

Toe-in is like a skier snowplowing...

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Old 2009.12.09, 03:21 PM   #8
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Also note that toe out effectively changes ackerman as well.
More ackerman (difference in the amount the left and right wheel is steered) equates to more off power steering. This also increases low speed steering and steering in a lower traction surface. It is partially for this reason that toe out gives better initial turn in response. If you are noticing that the car is more stable with toe out....i'm confused or you are steering on throttle a lot....or there is a lack of weight transfer to the front end when throttle is lifted...or a lot of things
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Old 2009.12.09, 04:21 PM   #9
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Hi Grant,

I like running zero toe bar on my MR02 just because it has a little bit of toe out (\ _ /) on-power. This gives me the stability on the straight away running in 94mm config.

So to aswer your question according to my experience in mini-z (same time as you did ). I feel that toe out in the front, should give more straight-away stability which makes it less "ping-pong" effect or twichy steering as you mentioned.
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Old 2009.12.09, 04:44 PM   #10
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Toe-out normally gives more turn in steering and less steering mid corner to corner exit. Toe-in gives less turn in steering and more steering mid corner and corner exit. In theory toe-in should be more stable on straights because it gives less inital response.

With stock cars I tend to leave them at 0 but for mod alot of times I end up with toe out, it helps tame the on power steering coming out of turns that you get from faster motors. It does make the car have alot of inital steering response.

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Old 2009.12.09, 04:50 PM   #11
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Here is a link that may help explain it better.

http://users.telenet.be/elvo/
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Old 2009.12.09, 04:59 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjay View Post
Hi Grant,

I like running zero toe bar on my MR02 just because it has a little bit of toe out (\ _ /) on-power. This gives me the stability on the straight away running in 94mm config.

So to aswer your question according to my experience in mini-z (same time as you did ). I feel that toe out in the front, should give more straight-away stability which makes it less "ping-pong" effect or twichy steering as you mentioned.
ok so im not on crack.......so its not driving style.....lol...cause tjay is as smooth as butter.....and i am a lil bit burtal.....lol....may be it in the radio setting.....lol
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Old 2009.12.09, 06:30 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yasuji View Post
ok so im not on crack.......so its not driving style.....lol...cause tjay is as smooth as butter.....and i am a lil bit burtal.....lol....may be it in the radio setting.....lol
No, you are both on crack... :P

Someone is playing Jedi mind tricks on both of you because there is no possible way, in any scenario that toe out adds stability in a straight line. It is simply impossible, and it goes against the laws of physics.

Having toe out, means that the front inside tire, when turning is already starting to steer in whatever direction you are going. This increases the reaction time of the car, hence creating the feeling of "twitchiness" which we can define pretty much the same as stability.

Toe In, makes the car track straight because the leading tire that is steering takes longer to start facing the direction it is going. Once the car is going through the middle and exit of the corner, toe in gives more mid corner steering and returns the car to center quicker because the tires have to travel less of a distance to center.

What you guys are experiencing is unexplainable, and although it could be the case, you are going against the laws of physics and geometry of the car. Just do a quick google search and do the research for yourselves. Anywhere from real life F1, to RC cars is consistent with the difference and effects of the 2.

Let's not confuse people on very basic concepts...
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Old 2009.12.09, 06:35 PM   #14
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This is a great article on Toe-In vs. Out:

http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html
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Old 2009.12.09, 06:56 PM   #15
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your camber setting will also have an effect on toe.....
a positive camber uses toe in
a negative camber uses toe out

what camber are you running on your cars???
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