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Old 2004.04.30, 02:30 PM   #1
arch2b
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Knowledge Base - The Clones

the following was put together by our diligent moderator Draconious and is available on his website, here .

In the interest of keeping such debates from reaking havok in other threads, please continue your thoughts on this subject HERE.

please note that the opinions expressed here are exactly that, OPINIONS. anyone who can not see fit to disagree or offer challenges without resulting to personal attacks or such rubbish will be recommended for discipline of an appropriate degree.

[QUOTE]WARNNING! Fake Mini-Z Copies!
The internet and Ebay are often littered with poor quality Mini-Z copies. These fake Mini-Z do not deserve the time and effort of having a whole page dedicated to them on my site, however, I do feel any one reading this deserves a fair warning, everyone needs to know about these, so pass the word before your freinds buy one.

Why are they so bad?
A lot of the new Mini-Z owners are on short cash flow, mostly from being too young to be employed, so most of them are comming in from the smaller and lower cost Bit Char-G hobby. Any one familiar with the Bit Char-G products out there, is likely also familiar with the numorous copy attempts to clone the Bit Char-G and steel sales away from Tomy, who has numourous law suits pending. Due to the low budgets and the simplicity of the Bit Char-G itself, the Bit Char-G clones are widely accepted as being a worth while purchase in the Bit Char-G hobby, however the Bit Char-G is cheap from the start, so it is not hard for the clones to be as good, and in some rare cases better than the original Bit Char-G. The Mini-Z is a lot more complex and high quality than the Bit Char-G type cars, wich makes it a lot harder, or I should say more costly and thus less profitable for the counterfiters to reproduce a Mini-Z, so they took as many short cuts as possible by leaving out key components and features that make the Real Mini-Z worth the $100 to $150 price tag they carry. The largest problem with the fakes is the electronics, there is no Servo, Speed Control, or Radio Channel Selection.

These fakes stand a chance of ruining the popularity of the Mini-Z, in some cases they already have. Say some one decides they want a Mini-Z after reading all the well earned hype online, they then see a realy good price on an internet site or ebay and buy what they think is a Mini-Z. Now they get the junk copy home in the mail, start running it around the floor and it breaks, does not have nearly the features they read or heard about, it just plain sucks. Now they may be thinking the Mini-Z sucks since, and they will start telling every one else that the Mini-Z sucks, so no one buys them and the sales drop, what few tracks there are close due to a drop in sales and popularity. Then Kyosho winds up cutting production till the existing stock is sold, eventually canceling it.. etc etc.. you get the idea... I don't need to continue to the point were mice rule the world.

The HEIPAO scam
The HEIPAO may have been the first clone on ebay, at least it was the first that I saw. The initial release of the HEIPAO clones was obvious that they intended to scam those shopping for a Mini-Z out of their money. The first box that HEIPAO packaged their crap-counterfit in, was a very poor likeness to one of the first two original Mini-Z boxes. The box does NOT say KYOSHO any where on it, instead it says hei pao were ever the Kyosho logo should have been. The Mini-Z Racer logo is not even a scan and reprint its a poorly done remake of the logo that was likely hand drawn by a monkey with parkinsons. Due to everyone warning each other not to buy a fake, there is a common mistake that all Mini-Z in a brown box is a fake, this is not true, the first two boxes the real Mini-Z came in were brown.
QUOTE]

image

Quote:
The silver box is the newer version of the heipao box, they likely are trying to get around legal issues selling them in the USA, well its still illegal. Notice they leave a body on the chassis, they possibly did this so a potential buyer can not see the fake servoless clone chassis in the box. They just filled the 2nd window, with an extra body, this has made a lot of people want it just for the extra body. To most buyers disappointment these bodies do not fit the real Mini-Z chassis as they should.
image

Quote:
This is the HEIPAO chassis and transmitter, obviously made to look like a Mini-Z, at least were they could afford to. The entire front of the chassis is very different, due to the lack fo there being a servo there. The transmitter, well, they were obviously on a SHORT budget, when they decided to down size the real perfex. This fake perfex is about as functional compared to the real perfex, as a cheap clear plastic toy squirt gun compared to a real gun. The fake perfex (left) is shown next to a REAL kyosho Perfex KT-2 radio (right).
image

Quote:
If your Mini-Z has HeiPao any were on the box, car, or transmitter, then you definitely have a fake, I recommend you buy a REAL Mini-Z and pass the clone off to some kid to break it.

Tokaros
Tokaros makes another clone often sold as a Mini-Z, but it is an obvious copy of the Palm Runner, since its box is a direct copy of the Palm Runner box. The only visible difference on the box, is were its supose to say PALM it says POWER, and were its supose to say KYOSHO it says TOKAROS. As if cloning the Mini-Z was not enough, they went and cloned the Palm Runner too. Why not, their mini-z clones have the exact same chassis, with the same function to the palm runner, so all they have to do is rebox it. When it comes to the chassis, the takaros is no better or different than the HEIPAO, but the body is actualy a much better replication, but still lacking quality and durrability. Even if the bodies look and fit better on the real Z, its still not worth the price, especialy if all you want is the body.
image

Quote:
LXX, close but not close enough
The LXX clone is so far the closest copy there is, but it still falls short of being worth the purchase. This copy goes back to the original brown box, but is labled so that its more obvious that its a fake. The electronics were not quite copied, but this clone has the functions of the real Mini-Z in its electronics. Proportional Steering does exist, Proportional speed does exist, even the radio crystal can be changed, but the reciever just cant cut it, glitches big time and very short range. The bodies are like the tokaros bodies, very close but lack minor detail and durability. Even with the added features, like all the other clones, its still garbage and since these are selling for $30+30 shipping it would be more cost effective to buy a used Mini-Z.

You should be able to tell from the photos that the edges and corners of the plastic look like they came from some not so great quality molds. It has also been reported numorous times that the soldering job realy sucks on the electronic components, so any one that winds up buying one any way should be ready to resolder all the solder points.
image

Quote:
There are also other makes and models of Mini-Z clones, intended to be in the same market, but most of these do not appear to be trying to fool buyers. They are very different in packaging and other things, but they are still not much better then the clone, canned heat, or palm runners. The problem lies on the sellers on ebay claiming they are Mini-Z Racers.
image

continued in next post...
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Old 2004.04.30, 02:30 PM   #2
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Quote:
If you see a Mini-Z on ebay that your about to place a bid on, show me the auction, and I will verify real or not... its VERY easy to tell. If you see an auction with one of the photos below, or an item similar to it selling on ebay, REPORT IT TO EBAY! This is better then just warning the people bidding on them, because ebay can pull it off and cancel their account, which ebay has already done numerous times. Please be very certain that its a fake before emailing some ome that they are buying a fake one, there have been a lot of real Mini-Z on ebay selling and people saying its fake when its not.

Do NOT buy one, unless you know that you are getting ripped off, they are not worth more then $5.00 including shipping. They are often sold with $9.00 to $30.00 price tags, but due to the rip off sellers being located overseas they also add on about $20-$30 for shipping fees. These are just bad mojo for the Mini-Z, so don't even support them by buying one to see what it is. It is very likely they have broken many laws to produce and sell these. Most of them are created from places in countries that have no care about international copyright laws, or any copyright law for that matter.

Please do not give these people selling them your money, most of the ebayers are selling nothing but counterfeit junk, so they don't deserve it. There are a few sellers admitting its not a Kyosho Mini-Z in their auctions, ok that is fine and dandy, but they still do not say that its no were near as functional, instead they say its "Just Like Mini-Z", a very big lie. Since these are obviously illegal to sell there is little chance you will get your money back once they get it, and obviously no warranty.

To make matters worse, Ebay is not the only place these are being sold at, in some countries they are sold right in the hobby shops. Because these products are likely illegal in the USA they use ebay as a way to hopefully get a US sales market, there are also a few web pages hoping to make a few sales as well. They are often sold with descriptions making you think they are the same as the Mini-Z,

How to spot a clonecan I tell if some one is selling a Clone?


These clones are made by molding all of the parts of a real Mini-Z, excluding the ones that would cost too much to copy, like the entire servo assembly. Then they try to produce the copies from the molds, the molds are often horribly flawed and lack detail, and assembled rather hastily. This often results in bad molds or parts just totally missing, like the Mercedes hood ornament. The bodies are often deformed and painted strangely, often the wrong mirrors are on the car, or they are not painted to match. The transmitters buttons and knobs do nothing they are part of the shell casing, and only there because they are there on the real thing, and they want you to think its the real thing. There is no power switch, no steering dial, no servo reverse switches. These things don't even have electronics up to par with the official Kyosho Palm Runner, that every one regards as cheap as it is. The steering is not proportional (a true steering servo), I bet their palm runner clone is no different then their Mini-Z clone, it cant get much worse.

I pulled most of the photos above, from actual Ebay auctions trying to pass them off as real Mini-Z. They are only available on unreliable wide band radios that allow no channel selection, and are only availabe in 27 and 49mhz, wich bleed into all surrounding channels since they are produced with out FCC aproval. There is no servo, they rely on magnetic on and off steering similar to the Bit Char-G or Palm Runner, this makes it realy hard to drive regardless of how fast or slow it is. The clones have no speed control, the throttle is simply on or off similar to the Bit Char-G or Palm Runner. There is one acception, the LXX clone has the radio crystal, servo, and variable speed control, but the reciever electronics are so poor you get very limited range. The wires plastic and solder joints on all of the clones are very fragile, they require glueing and resoldering constantly.

The Palm Runner
Kyosho also has their own "clone" of their Mini-Z line, they made a cheaper version of an radio control chassis, that fits the Mini-Z bodies. But thats about all it is, is just enough to get the body to move round on the floor, it has the same features as the fake clones, other then the fact it holds 2 AA instead of 4 AAA batteries. The palm runner is rumored to be canceled, or at least they are not sold in very many shops. If you have to buy a budget car for a kid, this is the one to get, cuz you can get a real Mini-Z body with it, and swap your used body for it. They often sell for under $20 to $50, or at least they did when they were easier to find, since some people have been paying this much for bodies its actualy a good deal if you get a rare body.
thank you to draconious for putting together this information and it's presented better on his website, there are also more images...

let the debate begin...
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Old 2004.04.30, 02:58 PM   #3
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Also note that my pages on my site are in perpetual change... I prefer the dynamic document over the type it out once and be done with it aproach... things change, so should information...

I am always updating them.. even if I dont upload it, or upload an incomplete version wich I usualy do... it currently needs to be udpated to add the I-Waver.. wich wont be much of a change from the LXX description unless I personaly see a difference in the two... the I-Waver is the LXX upgraded suposedly...

Also some of that above was "to be edited later" content... that he copied along with the rest... and I think one photo is out of place... as he said its presented better on my site.... even though my site is ugly as can be...

I am currently redoing the mini-Z knowledge base on my site, adding way more text than I want too... but the "Clone" Page will be edited along with it once I get the bulk of the KB done... this has been in-progress since before this forum existed, so dont expect it to be done anytime soon! .
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Old 2004.04.30, 03:05 PM   #4
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No debate here!!! I feel both these sights have mountains of very very helpful information. I know both sights have helped me and given me a lot of ideas of things to do to make my mini-z's better. I know it doesn't get said enough, but, keep up the great work!!!!! and thanks again for all the help from these sights!!!!!
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Old 2004.04.30, 03:21 PM   #5
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I fully researched all of my options before buying. I even have Draconious' site saved to my favorites. It is because of him that I avoided the heipo scam. I still may pick one up for the body and wheels, but I have 2 canned heat cars, and know that all the heipo chassis is is the same set-up disguised as a mini-z. I rolled the dice on the iWaver, and for the money, I say it is a good car for enthusiasts into this for fun. I know it is not as good as the Kyosho that it emulates, but it is good enough for the purpose I intended it for, fun.

When I eventually get the mro2 and monster z that I will inevitably be getting later this year(probably after the Epoch I sooooo covet), maybe my opinion of the iWaver will change, but I doubt it... all of the many varied rc's I posess are fun to me in their own special ways. From the 2 1/10 scale cars, the crappy canned heats, the Shack 'Vette, x-mod, Superslick, and my many, many beloved bits, zipzaps and clones, I find something to be enjoyed in all of them, regardless of the shortcomings some of them have.

I know you don't have to have an iWaver to know it's not a Kyosho, or even not as good, but you have no right to write it off as junk and not worthwhile without seeing for yourself how it really is.

Still not here to fight or cause trouble, just hate seeing a decent car getting trash talked on it for merely existing.
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Old 2004.04.30, 03:30 PM   #6
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Again, the hei poa is junk, in its purrist form.. the I-Waver is a close copy, the LXX I will still regard as junk though due to its poor reciever, if this was not fixed int he I-waver then yes, maybe I will say the I-waver too is junk...... sigh... please read and do not distort what I say...


Also.... While its still early in this thread, I would like to point out that the mini-Z did have a poor version... the old brown box that was made in china was not the best quality control. The solder quality was not that great... but again I would still buy this mini-z over the I-Waver....

There were 2 brown boxes one japan (high quality! like MR02 OL etc) and the china box, that was not so great.. had a few flaws errors, glitched much more, and even shorted solder points in a few Z's. The current/newer made in china MR01 white or now black boxes are perfectly fine though, about as good as the original Made In Japan boxes, with very very minor differences (the motor is different)

(see bottom of Mini-Z chassis for the Made In C/J)
All MR01 are currently made in China now... by a Kyosho Liscensed factory.
All MR02/OL/F1 as far as I know have been made in Japan, but that could always change...

So if any one compares the old brown box china Mini-Z to an I-Waver they will have IDENTICAL results.. with the exception that the I-Waver has very noticable steps in the steering... and possible reciever issues?
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Old 2004.04.30, 04:44 PM   #7
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I did not distort what you say. Someone started a thread about the iWaver and you jumped in and called it junk. Charlie Brown started another thread and you jumped in and said it was junk. Why can't you let people have thier opinion without you jumping in and saying it is junk? You do not own one so you should have no opinion.

My iWaver has great steering, and no range issues. It works perfectly, just as I expected it to. I would like to share that with other people interested in the iWaver without someone who doesn't even have one calling it junk. That is all my issue is.

I am still not trying to start trouble... I just wish people could talk about these cars without you jumping in and calling them junk.
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Old 2004.04.30, 05:21 PM   #8
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Could you please point me to these posts please? thank you...
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Old 2004.04.30, 05:45 PM   #9
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WHoo boy, here goes.

Drac- on some things, I have to agree with Bird. I have noticed that in every "clone" thread you do "jump in." And yes that includes the Iwaver topic--which personally, I have divided opinions on.

However "jumping in" is not necessarily a bad thing. Differing opinions, lively (heated) discussion, passionate conviction are all -- I think -- things that lead to the best ideas, in any area...politics, relationships, employment.....silly little toy-car hobbies....(lol)

I think your experience with the hobby, evidenced by your website and your (thousands of) posts here lends large credibility to your opinion.

Yet I can't say that I'm entirely convinced by your argument. You say the main reason clones are bad is that they "stand a chance of ruining the popularity of the Mini-Z" and " in some cases they already have."

I don't see this happening. Maybe you can elaborate, but generally speaking I think people pay for what they want. They're willing to pay more if they want more. No, the general public doesn't research these things to the extent that we, the geeks of Mini-zracer do, but I think they check things out. And I think that most people know that if it looks to good to be true, it is.

Of course those are generalities, and there are always exceptions to generalities. There are going to be kids that get ripped off. That sucks. Since it's happened to several nephews of mine, it really sucks. I'll be the first to volunteer to relieve scammers of their reproductive ability----but I don't see this as statistic enough to endanger Mini-z's popularity. Speaking of which, if you don't want kids to get ripped-off or have a bad experience then not buy a real Mini-Z etc...why do you "...recommend you buy a REAL Mini-Z and pass the clone off to some kid to break it." Do you mean kid as in baby? Not quite clear on that...

Anyway- Not taking sides. Just adding to the discussion.

I dislike most clones. I HATE scammers who don't readily identify their clones as such. Selling something for what it is is one thing. Dishonesty---deception? is quite another.

And....done....for now...
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Old 2004.04.30, 06:01 PM   #10
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Ok, If Other people can have their pinon, why can't drac?
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Old 2004.04.30, 06:08 PM   #11
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sigh, when the clones first came out there were ppl posting the Mini-Z sucked, and were recomending ppl buy OTHER products, RS4 or bit charges....... at least 5 or 6... infact it might have even been prior to this forums existance... then later it was learned that these ppl only had the cheap clones... This is what brought upon the "ruin the hobby" area of that old "article"... And again my words twisted, I did not say that was the main reason... and I ended that area of the article with humor... so dont take that paragraph too seriously...

umm a forum is for jumping in... if thats all that he is complaining about is me posting period.. then umm.. what the... its not like his posts are not jumping in
Hes claiming every post was me calling the I waver Junk... Ive not once directly said it was junk... closest thign would be me calling it a clone, and in another post calling a similar clone junk.... but this was not posted in every post as he says I did...

By the pass it on to a kid, this refers to those who already bought one... and were disapointed, im always asked "can I do anythign to make it as good as a real Z?" in emails... basicly this is my way of saying
"NO, give it to a 6 year old to break it..."
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Old 2004.04.30, 06:54 PM   #12
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I am not going to waste my time looking for posts. All I'm saying is that you imply in your posts that if it isn't a Kyosho, it's junk. You know what you're implying when you say things, and you know how people are going to read what you are saying. My only beef is that people cannot discuss these cars without you putting them down. It is evident you dislike them, and well documented, yet people cannot discuss them without you derailing it onto some patent or copyright issue... which is fine, but as I said before, you can't make them go away, and you can't make people stop buying them. I don't want to argue with you. I'ts pointless... You have your stance, and your reasons, and that's fine. I just don't understand why you feel the need to kick a dead horse every time someone starts to talk about these cars. And I know that my stance and my reasons have no merit in your eyes and you don't want to hear it, but someone has to defend these cars, and I have nothing to lose... so, why not? I truly do like my iWaver mini-z clone... you may not like that fact, but you also cannot change it.
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Old 2004.04.30, 07:21 PM   #13
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I need and want opnions from both sides of the fence. If we all had the same opnion this forum would be useless. I look foward to reading everyones remarks then I form my own opnion.

Be it good or be it bad I want to read it because both sides have "value".


Thanks for the Forums....
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Old 2004.04.30, 08:10 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yugo DSC Maxxer
Ok, If Other people can have their pinon, why can't drac?
Yugo- I hope this wasn't to me? Because my words were:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimey
However "jumping in" is not necessarily a bad thing. Differing opinions, lively (heated) discussion, passionate conviction are all -- I think -- things that lead to the best ideas, in any area...politics, relationships, employment.....silly little toy-car hobbies....(lol)
And Drac, I really hope you don't think I'm bagging on you. You were very helpful in this thread of mine. I had read this article on your site long before it was posted here and have since wondered (not derisively or negatively ) what the "core" of your "argument" was/is. Yeah, most clones suck, and I hope no-one buys them, but you seem extra kung-fu about it. I'm just asking particulars on why you feel the way you do. Maybe I shouldn't have used the term "main reason," but I wasn't trying to twist your words. It's just listed under the "Why are they so bad" section of your article. To my reading that's a big reason why you would be so adamant about clones and maybe? why others should be too. I was just asking...wondering.

Thanks for clarifying the "pass it on to a kid..." I thought that's probably what you meant, but I wanted to know (and to let others who may have mistaken your meaning to know as well)

And a big DITTO to Phredd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phredd
I need and want opnions from both sides of the fence. If we all had the same opnion this forum would be useless. I look foward to reading everyones remarks then I form my own opnion. Be it good or be it bad I want to read it because both sides have "value"
I said I wasn't taking sides and I meant it. I value intelligently offered, persuasively worded differing opinion highly, I just like a little clarification now and then. Sometimes things aren't what they seem......
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Old 2004.04.30, 08:26 PM   #15
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Nope, you're cool....For now... (Kidding)
I was directing that to Bird.
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M18, M18T, RC18T, Mini-LST, Mini-T, Micro RS4, XRay, 1/18, 18th scale
XMODS, XMOD, Micro Flight, ZipZaps, ZipZaps SE, Bit Char-G, MicroSizers, TTTT, Plantraco Desktop Rover, SuperSlicks, Digi Q
Mini Inferno, Mini Inferno ST, half EIGHT, 1/16, 16th scale
Epoch, Indoor Racer, 1/43, 43rd scale
E-Savage, eSavage, eZilla, e-Zilla, HPI
Robots, Bots, Bipeds, Wheeled, Manoi, Roomba, NXT, Lego, Hacking
Crawling, Crawlers, Micro, RC, Losi Mini-Rock Crawler, Duratrax Cliff Climber
Kyosho Minium, Caliber 120, Minium Forums
Mini-Z Hop-Ups, Mini-Z Parts, Mini Inferno Hop-Ups, Mini Inferno Parts, M18 Hop-Ups, M18 Parts