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Old 2018.11.11, 07:52 AM   #1
Qball41
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Questions about comparing motors

In looking at rules for different race groups, I still have a couple questions about how different motors compare. I know where stock Kyosho motors fit in. It appears that the HFAY spec and the PN 70t motor are considered equivalent. Is this correct? Also, where does an X speed motor fit in?
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Old 2018.11.11, 10:44 AM   #2
Mike Keely
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The HFAY motor is a PN 70t motor. One in the same. A X-speed motor falls into the modified motor category.
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Old 2018.11.11, 06:50 PM   #3
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In general, there are three groups of motors. Stock, super stock and modified.

For much of the current racing rules, super stock motors are grouped with modified.

Stock = 70t brushed or 3500kv brushless
Super Stock = 48-50t brushed, or 5600kv brushless
Modified is anything lower turn brushed motors or higher KV.

In the earlier days of Mini-Z, much of the competitive scene was super stock racing. The X-Speed, PN Speedy or Atomic Stock BB motors were the most common. These are all 48-50t motors.

PN changed their stock class to 70t because there was little difference in speed between the SS classes and modified, most of the time SS classes outperformed modified except at the highest level. 70t made it more entry level friendly, and created more separation between stock and modified.

The PN70t performs similarly to the Kyosho white endbell stock motor. The PN motor has a little more torque, and a little more drag brake effect. Some people prefer the Kyosho motor due to its smoother rolling off throttle, but in general, the PN 70t motor is a little faster with an experienced pilot. The original HFAY motor was only the Kyosho white endbell motor, but a special run of 70t motors were made specifically for HFAY by PN. The rules were adjusted to allow the PN 70t motor after that.

At the time when AM cars were used, the SS motors were the highest performing motors that could be used without needing to modify the electronics for higher current motors. The x-speed is a very smooth motor, but being a bushing motor, tends to run hot and has low drag brake. The PN 50t, which was the evolution of the Speedy, has a little more torque, and slightly more drag brake due to stronger brush springs and can be found in bearing and bushing models (handout motors were always bushing). The Atomic 48t Stock-BB, which has been discontinued along with all Atomic brushed motors, has considerably more torque and drag brake due to its neo magnets compared to the ferrite magnets of its competitors, but lower RPM. With constant gearing, the PN 50t motor is typically the fastest and highest RPM, the Atomic motor would need to be geared up a little more, but when it is, it was the class leader. The Atomic motor was my favorite motor for Mini-Z for many years. I prefer torque based motors, with strong drag brake. High RPM spinners can be just as fast, but require a different driving style.
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Old 2018.11.11, 06:59 PM   #4
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Thanks for the great info!

Scot
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Old 2018.11.11, 08:13 PM   #5
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In HFAY they allow the 5600KV motor as a stock class motor. HFAY rules state 5600KV or lower are allowed.
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Old 2018.11.11, 09:23 PM   #6
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Yeah, I know that it's in the rules for hfay, but generally that is around the similar speed to 50t, and really should be grouped as a super stock motor.

I think that those hfay rules were written well before 3500kv motors were available, and the 5600kv motor was the entry level motor on brushless, so it was thrown in to be inclusive. For hfay layouts, the difference between 3500 and 5600 motors is negligible because the tracks aren't large enough for the speed differences to come into effect. On larger layouts, the 5600 motors will outclass everything else unless there are some really tight technical sections.

These are just my opinions on the matter, and we are currently basing one of our classes around this rule set. We're not large enough to write our own rules, and want to comply with existing standards for simplicity and participation. I am not trying to argue about rules, just viewing the motors objectively. 5600kv is very close to x-speed performance on AAA cells, but lacks the feel and drag brake that the brushed motors have.
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Old 2018.11.12, 01:14 AM   #7
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Yeah, I know that it's in the rules for hfay, but generally that is around the similar speed to 50t, and really should be grouped as a super stock motor.

I think that those hfay rules were written well before 3500kv motors were available, and the 5600kv motor was the entry level motor on brushless, so it was thrown in to be inclusive. For hfay layouts, the difference between 3500 and 5600 motors is negligible because the tracks aren't large enough for the speed differences to come into effect. On larger layouts, the 5600 motors will outclass everything else unless there are some really tight technical sections.

These are just my opinions on the matter, and we are currently basing one of our classes around this rule set. We're not large enough to write our own rules, and want to comply with existing standards for simplicity and participation. I am not trying to argue about rules, just viewing the motors objectively. 5600kv is very close to x-speed performance on AAA cells, but lacks the feel and drag brake that the brushed motors have.
That's been my experience with the PN 5500 V2 motor as well. I have four cars that are HFAY spec, a 94mm, two 98mm, and a 102mm brushless. The brushless car (13/53 64p gearing, I think) runs away from everyone if there's more than 3 tiles of space. My driving is such that the extra speed doesn't necessarily net me consistently faster lap times, but spec-wise, it seems like a different category than the brushed HFAY cars.

I still have a 27AM MR02 with a 4x2 FET stack and a motor by NoMotorLimit, as well as a Woah Nelly external FET turbo thing, running a PN S03. I think those motors had turns down in the low 30s.
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Old 2018.11.12, 09:48 AM   #8
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Nice read...
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Old 2018.11.12, 12:47 PM   #9
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Correct, at the time HFAY adopted brushless, there were no 3500 and based on Kyosho lowest rated blue brushless motor.
Also correct, HFAY track size is the equalizer.
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Old 2018.11.24, 05:05 PM   #10
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An update on what I've learned about the 70t motor. When I first ran it, it was disappointed as it seemed slower than the stock motor. After reading about the built in drag brake action and it needing more gear, I tried it again going up a tooth. It was then a little faster than stock. I will continue to work with it. I also hear it will get even faster as it breaks in.
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Old 2018.11.24, 10:30 PM   #11
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I also hear it will get even faster as it breaks in.
You can break in the brushes before you install the motor by running it under water or in some rubbing alcohol if you are worried about corrosion. I put mine in a prescription pill bottle and then I put the bottle snuggly into an old spray paint lid to prevent it from tipping over, then I hook it up to a single AA cell and let it run for 10 minutes or so. The key is to break in the brushes with as little heat as possible.
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Old 2018.11.24, 10:48 PM   #12
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I've basically stopped breaking in motors. Unless I am racing at an event with handout motors, I personally don't feel that it makes enough difference.

I just clean it, lube it, and drive it. Im used to high drag motors, and prefer then to low drag motors.
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