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Old 2009.03.30, 09:58 AM   #31
Cherub1m
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eztuner12 View Post
Hello Mr. PN.
Any plans to release this marbles front PN SAS FOR THE MA-010AWD????
Definitely it would be a great hit and superb improvement for our AWDs
Perhaps someday PN Products with its great engineering & production capacity plus excellent quality, will come out with an incredible AWD main chassis replacement, with well side- to- side weight distribution, also some nice ceramic plates for our differentials.
Cheers
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Originally Posted by danieluki View Post
Incredible product....!
I pray PNRacing release an AWD version...
Yes, release it for the AWD.
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Old 2009.03.30, 10:54 AM   #32
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Philip sent me out a suspension to evaluate.
So far these are my impressions:

-It is a bit complicated of a build. It requires advanced building knowledge to assemble it correctly, lots of parts. In the end, it looks very nice though.
-The pivot balls are a bit tight of a fit. I had to spend a couple of hours polishing away to get the binding out of the suspension. I suggested to Philip to use a delrin ball in the future instead of stainless steel so that it is easier to break in and there is less friction on the suspension. Delrin on aluminum is a lot better than stainless on aluminum.
-Due to the large amount of parts, it also has a lot more slop than a regular front end. This might take away a little bit of the precision of the car. I have not driven it though.
-Even though Grant feels a wide track is not necessary, I disagree. Results speak for themselves. The wide track has won and is winning almost every event it enters. It makes the car more consistent and easier to drive at speed, the car has better feedback to the driver with less scrub. It is not always about making the fastest individual lap time car, but rather the one that can run on the track the quickest over an average of 10 minutes. Look at F1 this weekend. Nico Rosberg had the quickest lap of the race. He was never in contention for first place. Look at Jenson, destroyed the competition, but did not have the fastest lap.
-Camber gain is nice. It should provide more consistent and increased middle of the corner front grip, as well as absorb the imperfections of the track better. The question is, will these changes benefit more than the downsides on the car? I will start doing the testing tomorrow at the track. The lap record so far is 6.41 with an MR-02. We will see what we can do and I will keep you posted...
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Old 2009.03.30, 11:00 AM   #33
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The design is cool, but who's going to make a ruling on whether or not this type of setup is allowed in "stock" type classes. I can see this setup fixing the difficulty a mini-z can have in balancing on and off power steering. I think it might be overkill, the 1/12th style fixed lower with one upper arm would be a stronger setup with enough adjustment range, albeit a different camber curve than dual a-arms.
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Old 2009.03.30, 12:01 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Gofast View Post

Given that it's $80 I would suggest that it should only be allowed in Mod or Open class racing. It definitely defeat the spirit of Stock class racing. Agreed?

Congrats again.
Consider this, you are effectively getting several parts at once. It has to be looked at as a packaged deal. It includes tower bar, camber knuckle and sway bar. Is not just one part where you then have to go out and get other things to complete the front end. If you were to get those individually, you are looking at $17 for knuckle, $14 for tower bar, $20 for sway bar. That is $51 already. Most racers change camber and caster to match the race track. Assuming you get one more caster tower bar and a different camber knuckle. Now you are at $82. Instead, you have one system that can change 3 different camber and 3 different caster. You get the double A-arm suspension as a bonus. You can go either way, but in the end, you will be spending about the same amount.
Is not too different at the rear end. Cost of motor mount, disk damper, T-bar and a center shock would add up to similar amounts if you were to get them all at once. You are spending about the same on both ends. In the end, the total for the entire car has not changed at all, but you are getting a more sophisticated suspension. So is just like computers, you are getting more powerful processor each year, but the price stays the same
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Old 2009.03.30, 12:14 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CristianTabush View Post
-The pivot balls are a bit tight of a fit. I had to spend a couple of hours polishing away to get the binding out of the suspension. I suggested to Philip to use a delrin ball in the future instead of stainless steel so that it is easier to break in and there is less friction on the suspension. Delrin on aluminum is a lot better than stainless on aluminum.
Some of the parts are close toleranced for a tight fit. Grant suggested using Mothers polish. Put some on the ball joints, hold the assembly together and cycle the suspension several times in different steering positions until it feels smooth. Wash off the polish afterward. Couple minutes of work, and it will feel silk smooth afterward.
The production unit I had was particularly tight. What worked best was to put the king pin in a drill chuck. Apply metal polish, and use that to polish the suspension arm ball socket. It only took couple of seconds to get it moving very free. After that, I assembled with polish on joints and cycled it for a final fit. I tried doing it by hand holding the ball with a pin, and yes, that would take couple of hours.

Took some pictures here:
http://mini-z-guide.com/A-Arm_Front_Susp.htm
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Old 2009.03.30, 01:01 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CristianTabush View Post
Philip sent me out a suspension to evaluate......The lap record so far is 6.41 with an MR-02. We will see what we can do and I will keep you posted...
Cool anxiously awaiting your findings .
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Old 2009.03.30, 01:17 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeL View Post
The design is cool, but who's going to make a ruling on whether or not this type of setup is allowed in "stock" type classes. I can see this setup fixing the difficulty a mini-z can have in balancing on and off power steering. I think it might be overkill, the 1/12th style fixed lower with one upper arm would be a stronger setup with enough adjustment range, albeit a different camber curve than dual a-arms.
as ive been told.....if you limit technology in stk classes we will never evolve....
advancement is good ....
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Old 2009.03.30, 01:24 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CristianTabush View Post
-Even though Grant feels a wide track is not necessary, I disagree. Results speak for themselves. The wide track has won and is winning almost every event it enters. It makes the car more consistent and easier to drive at speed, the car has better feedback to the driver with less scrub. It is not always about making the fastest individual lap time car, but rather the one that can run on the track the quickest over an average of 10 minutes. Look at F1 this weekend. Nico Rosberg had the quickest lap of the race. He was never in contention for first place. Look at Jenson, destroyed the competition, but did not have the fastest lap.
.
thats because reflex has the best drivers in the world.....
i am not saying that the wtf is not good.....just not for my driving style....
all tho i feel that the way this new front end works takes all of the +s from std and wtf i have no complaints @ all....it does everything i want it to do for me
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Old 2009.03.30, 01:27 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benmlee View Post
Some of the parts are close toleranced for a tight fit. Grant suggested using Mothers polish. Put some on the ball joints, hold the assembly together and cycle the suspension several times in different steering positions until it feels smooth. Wash off the polish afterward. Couple minutes of work, and it will feel silk smooth afterward.
The production unit I had was particularly tight. What worked best was to put the king pin in a drill chuck. Apply metal polish, and use that to polish the suspension arm ball socket. It only took couple of seconds to get it moving very free. After that, I assembled with polish on joints and cycled it for a final fit. I tried doing it by hand holding the ball with a pin, and yes, that would take couple of hours.

Took some pictures here:
http://mini-z-guide.com/A-Arm_Front_Susp.htm
it took me just a few minits to free up a set with mothers.....one set i got could barely move.... i just put a dab of mothers in the ball socket , installed the ball and clip....and walaaaa.... aftre a few mins..smooth as butter
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Old 2009.03.30, 01:44 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by yasuji View Post
as ive been told.....if you limit technology in stk classes we will never evolve....
advancement is good ....
I am o.k. whatever way the consensus is. It's all just fun and hobby for me. I'll buy Grant's comment if you see F1 technology applied at an SCCA event. Prototypes and tech advancement should/must be used in mod/open class to test out new stuff. These should then get trickle down to stock class racing. That's how prototype and product development should work.

A cool factor of Mini-z racing is it's cost of entry. Parts cost should scale similarly in my opinion but I like Ben's explanation though. It's all good.
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Old 2009.03.30, 01:51 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeL View Post
The design is cool, but who's going to make a ruling on whether or not this type of setup is allowed in "stock" type classes. I can see this setup fixing the difficulty a mini-z can have in balancing on and off power steering. I think it might be overkill, the 1/12th style fixed lower with one upper arm would be a stronger setup with enough adjustment range, albeit a different camber curve than dual a-arms.
I don't see the point in limiting this out of the stock class. If someone wants to dump $80 on this, that's their prerogative. I doubt it's going to give an unfair advantage.

Cristian - don't talk about Nico like that.
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Old 2009.03.30, 02:32 PM   #42
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^ I agree with Joe. At what point do you say "this isnt stock"? Weve been down that road before, and it can go all the way back to box stock. Until thats what we are racing (box stock), upgrades shouldnt be policed/limited, IMO.
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Old 2009.03.30, 02:44 PM   #43
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I don't see the point in limiting this out of the stock class. If someone wants to dump $80 on this, that's their prerogative. I doubt it's going to give an unfair advantage.

Cristian - don't talk about Nico like that.
I don't want to drag this out in the thread since it's not really the place, but I'll give you this as an example. Our local 1/10 track closed, this weekend we brought our mini-zs to show the racers what else was available, and when you tell them that you need a $200 car +$200 in mods they shy away, this front end, assuming it makes an improvement worth the cost (which I *think* it will) your almost at $500.
I know it's at each track's discretion, but my experience is that most people who run tracks follow the "national" guidelines so they don't have to explain or convince people that their modifications to the rules are in the best interests of everyone.
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Old 2009.03.30, 04:29 PM   #44
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MikeL, I agree with you entirely, but I also agree entirely with Ben, Grant, and Joe.

By buying this you are effectively getting,
*All the caster bars imaginable
*All the adjustable camber knuckles
*No need for kingpins

If you compare the prices vs.
*WTF 35.00
*2 sets of camber knuckels 26.00
*Stainless King Pins 6.00

This already puts you at 67.00 dollars, plus the infinite adjustability should be worth the extra 20 dollars.

Now this: One of the greatest things about Mini-Z Racing is the price point. Releasing a part like this does not make it necessarily more expensive, as it is not necessary to win (Jacob ran a STOCK front end in stock at the KO Grand Prix, no WTF, no caster bar, just 0 degrees of stock front end). It is a part for tinkerers. Some people enjoy parts like this (myself included) and they have to be given a chance to develop properly. In the end it might end up a part that is indispensable, but I really doubt that you will need it to be competitive, especially in stock where weight is probably more important than infinite adjustment. 88.00 Dollars is a pretty penny, but then again, you are getting something that is so multi-dimensional, that anyone who is serious about racing ends up spending in the long haul. A perfect example for this is the SAS on RCP. Over and over again it has been proven that the standard type suspension is quicker. It is probably due to the fact that the regular rear end does not work as well giving traction to a car that already has too much traction.

Should it be banned? How can you put a cap on something like this? How do you measure what something costs on different people's cars? It is just kind of impossible to monitor.

What I say, is to not be concerned. I think that you will be fine with your regular front end, so long that you build it properly. Where I see this making a difference is in the Modified classes where the additional surface compliance might make the car more consistent. In stock, the regular front end is more than adequate.

Grant, I was by no means inferring that you are not correct about saying that the Wider track is or is not necessary. I think each has it's very own application. It is just that cars running the WTF or not, with Offset wheels feel numb (even +1's on a regular front end, I can't drive it) I am most excited about this part for 2wd Mod touring, where I think it will have the biggest benefit when running 0 offset wheels in the front. This is the reason why 1/12th scale cars and 1/10th scale tourers have been build with inset wheels for the past 15+ years, precision handling and better feedback to the driver. I guess it is important to mention that I will be testing 2 identical cars in different configurations (Pan and Touring) in order to give as much of an unbiased as is possible. One of the things about Reflex, and the reason why I have never run for any of the big Manufacturers is the ability that we have to pick the best parts, regardless of manufacturer. This has been part of the success of Reflex (and Atom ic Mods while I was there) at big events. We run what is fastest, period.

Joe, I still love Nico, and you know I am a Williams fan, but the truth is the truth. We were outclassed this weekend by Brawn GP and Red Bull Racing...
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Old 2009.03.30, 04:34 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benmlee View Post
Some of the parts are close toleranced for a tight fit. Grant suggested using Mothers polish. Put some on the ball joints, hold the assembly together and cycle the suspension several times in different steering positions until it feels smooth. Wash off the polish afterward. Couple minutes of work, and it will feel silk smooth afterward.
The production unit I had was particularly tight. What worked best was to put the king pin in a drill chuck. Apply metal polish, and use that to polish the suspension arm ball socket. It only took couple of seconds to get it moving very free. After that, I assembled with polish on joints and cycled it for a final fit. I tried doing it by hand holding the ball with a pin, and yes, that would take couple of hours.

Took some pictures here:
http://mini-z-guide.com/A-Arm_Front_Susp.htm
Ben, that's me hand polished. Both mine and Jacobs were VERY tight on the left side. The reason why I hand polished is because I did not want to go too far with it. I am really anal about my building so I want it to be perfect. You just can't beat hand fitment I would have used just regular polish, but the left side was just a bit too tight to get it done well.
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