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Old 2009.03.30, 04:51 PM   #46
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What do you call a Polish snowplow?

Kubica!
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Old 2009.03.30, 05:06 PM   #47
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Ok ok fine... the snowplow was German. The driver was Polish.
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Old 2009.03.30, 05:16 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benmlee View Post
Consider this, you are effectively getting several parts at once. It has to be looked at as a packaged deal. It includes tower bar, camber knuckle and sway bar. Is not just one part where you then have to go out and get other things to complete the front end. If you were to get those individually, you are looking at $17 for knuckle, $14 for tower bar, $20 for sway bar. That is $51 already. Most racers change camber and caster to match the race track. Assuming you get one more caster tower bar and a different camber knuckle. Now you are at $82. Instead, you have one system that can change 3 different camber and 3 different caster. You get the double A-arm suspension as a bonus. You can go either way, but in the end, you will be spending about the same amount.
Is not too different at the rear end. Cost of motor mount, disk damper, T-bar and a center shock would add up to similar amounts if you were to get them all at once. You are spending about the same on both ends. In the end, the total for the entire car has not changed at all, but you are getting a more sophisticated suspension. So is just like computers, you are getting more powerful processor each year, but the price stays the same
Hi benmlee
Excellent point you have made.
About pivot balls, thru a wide experience with pivot balls, I can say nothing will match or be compared to s-steel on this specific part, not even titanium, doe to the strength and material resistant required in line to keep up with the stress it will receive plus potential wear out, perhaps a coat of Teflon or Delrin over the sterling steel ball cold be a solution but still it won’t beat the strength, durability and security sterling steel pivot ball will provide.
Mother wax is a great product but they are others more specialized on wax based lubricants as O’Donnell wax based lubricant, which by the way lives no oily residue that prevents from collecting dirt and dust as Mothers wax too.
Cheers
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Old 2009.03.30, 05:42 PM   #49
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DELRIN. Look at a 1/12 scale...
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Old 2009.03.30, 10:02 PM   #50
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anyone know what size the set screws are? I don't have one small enough.
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Old 2009.03.30, 10:08 PM   #51
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It is a 0.9 if I'm not wrong. They come with all PN 64 pitch pinions that have the aluminum collar on them...
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Old 2009.03.30, 10:11 PM   #52
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It is a 0.9 if I'm not wrong. They come with all PN 64 pitch pinions that have the aluminum collar on them...
I'll see if I can find one. I don't have that size.
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Old 2009.03.30, 10:17 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by eztuner12 View Post
Hi benmlee
Excellent point you have made.
About pivot balls, thru a wide experience with pivot balls, I can say nothing will match or be compared to s-steel on this specific part, not even titanium, doe to the strength and material resistant required in line to keep up with the stress it will receive plus potential wear out, perhaps a coat of Teflon or Delrin over the sterling steel ball cold be a solution but still it won’t beat the strength, durability and security sterling steel pivot ball will provide.
Mother wax is a great product but they are others more specialized on wax based lubricants as O’Donnell wax based lubricant, which by the way lives no oily residue that prevents from collecting dirt and dust as Mothers wax too.
Cheers
Correction; I ment Stainless steel not sterling steel.
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Old 2009.03.30, 10:25 PM   #54
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Brian, thats the only wrench i had that worked. I ordered the PN wrench so i have something stronger.
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Old 2009.03.30, 10:39 PM   #55
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Brian, thats the only wrench i had that worked. I ordered the PN wrench so i have something stronger.
I'll be doing the same.
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Old 2009.03.31, 08:50 AM   #56
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Releasing a part like this does not make it necessarily more expensive, as it is not necessary to win (Jacob ran a STOCK front end in stock at the KO Grand Prix, no WTF, no caster bar, just 0 degrees of stock front end).
There are people who are so naturally talented that they shouldn't be considered when defining rules. They could outrun me with a bone stock car against my car with every mod known. So that's not a valid argument. The argument should be: For a typical racer, does it provide an advantage?

Quote:
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but I really doubt that you will need it to be competitive, especially in stock where weight is probably more important than infinite adjustment.

What I say, is to not be concerned. I think that you will be fine with your regular front end, so long that you build it properly. Where I see this making a difference is in the Modified classes where the additional surface compliance might make the car more consistent. In stock, the regular front end is more than adequate.
I disagree that it would be an advantage only in mod class. The argument above states that it doesn't make you any faster, but it makes you more consistent. Stock class is often decided by who makes the fewest mistakes, so consistency is often just as important as speed. Where do we draw the line? What happens when a fully articulated independent rear setup with oil shocks comes available? For $200? Do we allow that too? And IF the argument is that it doesn't make you any faster in stock, then what's the problem in not allowing it in stock? Allow it or don't, but don't make the decision based on the "it makes no difference in stock" argument.

I also race slot cars and issue exists there too, but the controversial technology there is electronic controllers. Some argue that the controllers don't make you any faster, which is mostly true. But they DO make you more consistent. So far, in our local slot car club, nobody has won a race without an electronic controller.
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Old 2009.03.31, 09:14 AM   #57
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While you on that road bemoore, let me play devils advocate.

Should we outlaw Ex-10s, Ex-URs, M-11s, and 3pks in stock class? They cost way more than any of the parts used for expamles, and IMO, make more of a difference. Saying this is neccesary to be competetive could be argued as well. Some one at the recent event in MB (I believe is was Action B) pointed out the fact that every one, in every A-Main, including the sportsman classes, were using high end radios. He felt at a huge disadvantage because he was running a lesser radio.

If some one says I cant run my helios in stock class, then I wont run stock anymore. I would loose a lot of enjoyment I get from the hobby, which is what I do it for...enjoyment. I am a pretty good driver behind the wheel of a 70t powered car. If I were to be forced into mod classes (cause Ill refuse to go back to KT radios), I wouldnt likely attend any events. If my local group decided to force that type of rule I may consider getting out of the hobby all-together.

In the end, I dont think Id quit, but I would end up being forced into mod class, where I would have to have all of the cutting edge tech and parts to compete, and Id be forced to spend big dollars to get them......
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Old 2009.03.31, 10:32 AM   #58
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While you on that road bemoore, let me play devils advocate.


In the end, I dont think Id quit, but I would end up being forced into mod class, where I would have to have all of the cutting edge tech and parts to compete, and Id be forced to spend big dollars to get them......
Hi Landon,

Sorry for pointing out the obvious. This last sentence is already true as of now in stock or mod anyway.
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Old 2009.03.31, 10:46 AM   #59
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i think this entire arguement really only suite a small percentage of mini-zracers. i argue that a majority of us are in club racing with our own rules and travel little to other events which all have thier own rules.

i think for a majority of us out there, this part would be a huge expense for little gain. it's been my experience that the best guys have beaten me with less sophisticated cars in terms or retail upgrades.

as we do not have broad based rules system, let each decide thier own fate. if i had $80 i would buy it. i don't for a second think it would make me any faster rather give me yet more parts to tinker with.

experienced drivers should be doing more to tutor those less skilled to be more particular with thier upgrades. instead, we get the atmosphere that you can spend your way to a good car which is counter productive. no amount of money or parts will make up for practicing consistency and clean lines.
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Old 2009.03.31, 11:02 AM   #60
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^ Begging to differ seems to be the norm when we talk "stock" class these days.....wellI guess its the norm any time we bring up new parts/rules, lol. Its okay though, thats what the forum is for right....sharing info and opinions

Im going to back myslef up a little though, and break my stock and mod cars down.

Stock car upgrades:
ATM 94mm MM motor mount - $30
ATM DDS - $22
Kyosho ball diff - $40
PN70t motor - $10
ATM plastic camver knuckles - $5
spring and H-plate assortment - $15

Mod Car upgrades:
PN 98-102 motor mount - $38
PN multi length DDS - $23
Side damper - ~$35
Kyosho Oil shock - $15
Kyosho ball diff - $40
Reflex WTF - $35
mod motor - ~$25
ATM plastic camber knuckles - $5
spring and H-plate assortment - $15

This puts my stock car at $122 worth of upgrades, and my mod car up to $231. This is also running plastic knuckles on the frot of my mod, which I think should be alloy. To get the alloy in the two settings I got the plastic ones, it would be an addition $25. That would make it $135 more expensive to run mod instead of stock, in my case. This also doesnt include in castor or toe adjustability, which Id like to have for my mod car (if they only came in WTF ). I wouldnt enjoy that as much if I felt I was forced into it by rules.

I guess it goes back to saying that this part in question (A-Arm set up) is too expensive to bring into stock, as its going to be a neccesary upgrade to compete, but I agree with Cristian. At the slower speeds of stock, its not neccesary, therefore I wont spend the money on that car. Thats the decision I will make, even if others are running the part against me in stock class.
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