HFAY Season 28 Rules Adjustments

[mugler]

Come to think of it in presence of rules 9 & 10 adding time trials specially for the 70t/3500 category adds a nice little 2nd chance in the way of allowing individual racers to strut their stuff outside of variables under racing conditions so good in that way , just something to be considered further with that, it would be a shame if some racers chose to skip the races to run time trials only... for that reason it would be good if the software could require race results for that name handle to be posted for the month before time trials results can also be posted for that handle... Or am i missing the fact that time trials as they are now ( or been up to this point) are to be a completely separate deal, different layout meant to be run on a different day, which relates to my next paragraph & my comment on nolt too.

I made a suggestion along with reasons on item #14 on nolt for time trials to be happening on the same layout for that months races because reading it was not clear if it was meant time trials were to be on different layout than corresponding months' race layouts?

While on the subject of Time trial categories I’ve been really wanting the F1 category to be available for submission & just thinking out laoud I guess if possible any category per request & approval (ie 86mm, any 90mm variety, 94mm, single body yada yada etc) can be open for submission so any drivers no matter how few can can choose to run and submit?

Displaying results for the two different classes, i would think would need to be displayed and ranked completely separately and only if a combo display as an added option was possible then that would be a nice bonus feature. if the two class results were to be combined just one of the issues would be drivers running both classes would be ranked twice so the entire ranking itself would be inaccurate then.

Are time trials meant to be run in a specific direction? Can they be ran ccw and cw?

[mugler]

Originally Posted by MTSEO

Are time trials meant to be run in a specific direction? Can they be ran ccw and cw?

Did a quick check of time trials specific rules and didnt see a mention about direction but I'm sure HFAY veterans will answer this soon.

Originally Posted by mugler

Come to think of it in presence of rules 9 & 10 adding time trials specially for the 70t/3500 category adds a nice little 2nd chance in the way of allowing individual racers to strut their stuff outside of variables under racing conditions so good in that way , just something to be considered further with that, it would be a shame if some racers chose to skip the races to run time trials only... for that reason it would be good if the software could require race results for that name handle to be posted for the month before time trials results can also be posted for that handle... Or am i missing the fact that time trials as they are now ( or been up to this point) are to be a completely separate deal, different layout meant to be run on a different day, which relates to my next paragraph & my comment on nolt too.

Just realized needed to correct myself regarding what i wrote above ...I forgot time trials are based on shortest run time for 50 laps completed and not most laps completed in 8 minutes like the races so the direct comparison for an individual driver between TTrials & race results I was referring to wouldn't be the case & there's no danger of drivers preferring TTrials over racing. Cross checking TTrials and race results would still be possible among those drivers who run both but that becomes a nice fun bonus to look into should TTrials be added for ranked classes..anyway please carry on with the rest of the discussions, thank you.

[art4242]

Ok, I had my track up over the weekend and we ran our May races on track 12, and I was able to get in some time trial experiments comparing open NiMH and lithium cars.

I ran two cars, a 5250kV with NiMH only and a 3500kV car initially NiMH and then rewired to 2S2P lithium AAA (besides powertrain both cars were setup identically).

Results for 50 lap times trials on track 12 are below:

3500kV (NiMH) - 3:08.465 fast lap: 3.577s
5250kV (NiMH) - 3:01:082 fast lap: 3.442s
3500kV (Lithium) - 3:03.952 fast lap: 3.405s

Detailed heat sheets are also attached.

The 3500kV NiMH was geared at 53/13, while the 5250kV NiMH and 3500kV Lithium were both geared at 53/9.

I ended up reducing the throttle high point about 10% off max on the lithium car. Trying it out for a while it was just a little too much power to be consistent at 100% throttle. More power would get me a very slightly faster fast lap, but made it harder to go mistake free.

Looking at the top 5,10, 20 lap times the 5250kV NiMH and 3500kV Lithium were basically dead even within about a hundredth of a second (I was slightly less consistent with the lithium car and had one more bobble).

Based on this I'm thinking the "open" class should be pretty self equalizing between lithium and NiMH. There's only so much power than can be put down controllably on the HFAY sized layouts, and you can arrive at that with either battery chemistry and motor combo.

[EMU]

Art, your feedback and detail is very concise and represents exactly what would be expected. The are considerable diminishing returns on a track this size once you get to the 5600kv AAA power level. The additional power from the lipo does not make much difference.

Do you know the weights for each car? I wonder if lithium is noticeably lighter, and could influence the fact that you needed to lower the hipoint to make it comfortable to drive.

Thanks for sharing your data and opinions on the matter.

[art4242]

Originally Posted by EMU

Art, your feedback and detail is very concise and represents exactly what would be expected. The are considerable diminishing returns on a track this size once you get to the 5600kv AAA power level. The additional power from the lipo does not make much difference.

Do you know the weights for each car? I wonder if lithium is noticeably lighter, and could influence the fact that you needed to lower the hipoint to make it comfortable to drive.

Thanks for sharing your data and opinions on the matter.

Good point, I forgot about the lighter weight of the lithiums. From previous measurements a set of lithiums is about 11gm lighter than the NiMH's, so that would be the weight difference between cars. Usually I would add the Marka brass plate onto the front of the lithium car but forgot.

FYI I added videos of the time trial runs on track 12 onto the playlist here:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...PKnSs4SAI4lYlC

[mugler]

Thanks for great videos and info. I have a feeling adding weight to the 3500 lithium car will make it faster overall and that package with the right gearing should be a great choice for next seasons open class.
Couple of years ago we ran a 94mm stock class allowing 3500 lithium cars at 54/8 gearing & 170g to run with open geared 70T/Nimh/open geared cars. Top end of the lithium car was noticeably slower by a tad but out of corners infield it would make up so much time that it was no contest at the end.

[briankstan]

I have revised the Season 28 Manual, please look through and let me know if you see anything I've missed.

http://www.saltlakemini-z.com/HFAY/S...CER-Manual.pdf

the main items were limiting the bushless motors to 3500KV.

I also added in the 170 gram minimum weight.

[mugler]

Rules for the 3500 class looking great.
For clarification, will there also be an open class added as well with its own result submission platform and published ranking table like the 70/3500 class or season 28 will include the 70/3500 class only?

[briankstan]

currently we only have the system setup for the one class. this is somethign that I hope we can have figured out for next season and we will have an "Open or more Open" class to allow other the faster cars to compete against each other.

[mugler]

Great, Thank you for the clarification...Looking forward to season 28.

[BladeSling]

Originally Posted by briankstan

currently we only have the system setup for the one class. this is somethign that I hope we can have figured out for next season and we will have an "Open or more Open" class to allow other the faster cars to compete against each other.

Brian, If by system you mean the Next Level Timing website- it supports multiple classes. I'm not sure if I made that clear in this post:
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showpo...16&postcount=4

It works a little awkwardly by merging results but you can filter by the class on the championship page.

[art4242]

Yes, would be good to get clarification if we are able to submit "open" class officially or unofficially as well this season.

Due to schedule conflicts we had to run our July races early, so ran both the 70T/3500kv and open class.

We had 4 drivers this time, and FYI the differences in number of laps between the classes was:

2 drivers : + 2 laps more with open class
1 driver : + 1 lap more with open class
1 driver: -1 lap less with open class

So all in all only a small difference between the motors similar to what we've been seeing before.

[mugler]

Originally Posted by art4242

Yes, would be good to get clarification if we are able to submit "open" class officially or unofficially as well this season.

Due to schedule conflicts we had to run our July races early, so ran both the 70T/3500kv and open class.

We had 4 drivers this time, and FYI the differences in number of laps between the classes was:

2 drivers : + 2 laps more with open class
1 driver : + 1 lap more with open class
1 driver: -1 lap less with open class

So all in all only a small difference between the motors similar to what we've been seeing before.

Great info again while we await the final word on ability to submit official results for an open class. That gives the rest of the clubs who'd be running both classes an idea what to expect in advance.


We haven't ran July's round yet & as I was prepping both 3500 and open cars for our eventual race day, started realizing how similar they both are going to drive on race day so possibly kinda redundant (?) I think I may bust out an F1 chassis instead to run our clubs open round with, logic being like life variety is the spice of Mini-Z racing and F1 being the most different 1/28 platform fits that bill nicely not to mention it's an all time favorite ...even though it may not be top tier competitive on the ranking chart compared to other 2wd platforms I'm hoping for off the charts drive time fun

[BladeSling]

HFAY Season 28 will support the Open class.

I emailed Brian last night to clarify the situation about the support on the website. He said he is good to run an open class. In your CSV on submission make sure you put Open in the class column for your participants racing the Open class. And Racer for those in the Racer class. They can be mixed into a single race/import. Make sure you have a the 3 minimum racer count in the races.

That all being said- the multiple classes feature is in beta, let me know as soon as you can if something is wrong. I welcome design feedback as well, I know the first version isn't always great. Currently it is just me throwing things together, sometimes as quickly as possible. Also, if you are interested in a group discussion for improvements on the software I would like to do a monthly call. Please join the Next Level Timing discord and we can work out the dates.

Next Level Timing Discord: https://discord.gg/Zw8jJke